The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

[TomL]

He is the Runningman. We were all forewarned by his name.

His name Runningman forewarns you of what he will do and how he will respond.

So it appears

 

[Runningman]

You ran from the issue
Oh so you believe scripture only when it fits your thinking

Jude 4 (LEB) — 4 For certain men have slipped in stealthily, who were designated long ago for this condemnation, ungodly ones, who change the grace of our God into licentiousness and who deny our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ.

So if you cannot take verses such as this to mean only Jesus is lord why do you accept verses which you believe only the father is God when there are verse which state Christ is God

All of God is father

There are three senses, it appears, in which "Father" is used in the New Testament in relation to God: (1) A Hebraism, common also in other religions, in which God is spoken of as the "Father" in the sense that he is Creator of all. (2) A parabolic sense of the word, very common in Jesus' teachings, in which "Father" is not intended to denote a distinct person in the Godhead, nor the fact of the creatorship of God, but the relation of God to the world or to individuals as "father" to children. This sense is often confused with the third sense: (3) A sense of the word in which it is clearly designed to refer to a specific individual personality, a technical term distinguishing the Father in the Godhead, in his internal relations, from the Son - E Calvin. Beisner



Um but Jesus is called YHWH when the New Testament speaks of him as being he who the Old Testament calls YHWH

example

Isaiah 6:1–5 (LEB) — 1 In the year of the death of Uzziah the king, I saw the Lord sitting on a high and raised throne, and the hem of his robe was filling the temple. 2 Seraphs were standing above him. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And the one called to the other and said, “Holy, holy, holy is Yahweh of hosts! The whole earth is full of his glory.” 4 And the pivots of the thresholds shook from the sound of those who called, and the house was filled with smoke. 5 And I said, “Woe to me! For I am destroyed! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I am living among a people of unclean lips, for my eyes have seen the king, Yahweh of hosts!”

Isaiah 6:6–10 (LEB) — 6 Then one of the seraphs flew to me, and in his hand was a hot coal he had taken from the altar with tongs. 7 And he touched my mouth, and he said, “Look! This has touched your lips and has removed your guilt, and your sin is annulled.” 8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” And I said, “I am here! Send me!” 9 And he said, “Go and say to this people, ‘Keep on listening and do not comprehend! And keep on looking and do not understand!’ 10 Make the heart of this people insensitive, and make its ears unresponsive, and shut its eyes so that it may not look with its eyes and listen with its ears and comprehend with its mind and turn back, and it may be healed for him.”

compare to

John 12:37–41 (LEB) — 37 But as many signs as he (Jesus)had performed before them, they did not believe in him, 38 in order that the word of the prophet Isaiah would be fulfilled, who said, “Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” 39 For this reason they were not able to believe, because again Isaiah said, 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn, and I heal them.” 41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his (Jesus) glory, and he spoke about him.








Scripture disagrees with you again

John 8:58–59 (LEB) — 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am!” 59 Then they picked up stones in order to throw them at him. But Jesus was hidden and went out of the temple courts.


Why did the Jews try to stone him

And here the angel of the lord appears to Jacob and is termed the God and YHWH


Genesis 31:11–13 (KJV 1900) — 11 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee. 13 I am the God of Beth-el, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.

The angel of the Lord tells Jacob he is the God of bethel where Jacob had made a vow unto him


Genesis 28:18–22 (LEB) — 18 And Jacob rose early in the morning, and he took the stone that he had put under his head and set it up as a stone pillar, and poured oil on top of it. 19 And he called the name of that place Bethel; however, the name of the city was formerly Luz. 20 And Jacob made a vow saying, “If God will be with me and protect me on this way that I am going, and gives me food to eat and clothing to wear, 21 and if I return in peace to the house of my father, then Yahweh will become my God. 22 And this stone that I have set up as a pillar shall be the house of God, and of all that you give to me I will certainly give a tenth to you.”

and here God speaks of the God who appeared to Jacob when he fled from Esau.had

Genesis 35:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Beth-el, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother. 2 Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments: 3 And let us arise, and go up to Beth-el; and I will make there an altar unto God, who answered me in the day of my distress, and was with me in the way which I went.

The Messenger (angel) of Yahweh is called God, the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, Elohim, Yahweh and the I am

Exodus 3:2–15 (LEB) — 2 And the angel of Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush, and he looked, and there was the bush burning with fire, but the bush was not being consumed. 3 And Moses said, “Let me turn aside and see this great sight. Why does the bush not burn up?” 4 And Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, and God called to him from the midst of the bush, and he said, “Moses, Moses.” And he said, “Here I am.” 5 And he said, “You must not come near to here. Take off your sandals from on your feet, because the place on which you are standing, it is holy ground.” 6 And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face because he was afraid of looking at God. 7 And Yahweh said, “Surely I have seen the misery of my people who are in Egypt, and I have heard their cry of distress because of their oppressors, for I know their sufferings. 8 And I have come down to deliver them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up from this land to a good and wide land, to a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Amorites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites. 9 And now, look, the cry of distress of the Israelites has come to me, and also I see the oppression with which the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 And now come, and I will send you to Pharaoh, and you must bring my people, the Israelites, out from Egypt.” 11 But Moses said to God, “Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and that I should bring the Israelites out from Egypt?” 12 And he said, “Because I am with you, and this will be the sign for you that I myself have sent you: When you bring the people out from Egypt, you will serve God on this mountain.” 13 But Moses said to God, “Look, if I go to the Israelites and I say to them, ‘The God of your ancestors has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is his name?’ then what shall I say to them?” 14 And God said to Moses, “I am that I am.” And he said, “So you must say to the Israelites, ‘I am sent me to you.’ ” 15 And God said again to Moses, “So you must say to the Israelites, ‘Yahweh, the God of your ancestors, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is my remembrance from generation to generation.’


The angel of the lord is the pre-incarnate Christ who followed the israeliyes in the desert

1 Corinthians 10:4 (LEB) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:7–9 (LEB) — 7 and not become idolaters, as some of them did, just as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play,” 8 nor commit sexual immorality, as some of them committed sexual immorality, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day, 9 nor put Christ to the test, as some of them tested him, and were destroyed by snakes,

Jude 5 (LEB) — 5 Now I want to remind you, although you know everything once and for all, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those who did not believe.

and what will you do with

Zechariah 2:6–9 (LEB) — 6 “Woe! Woe! Flee from the land of the north,” declares Yahweh, “for I have scattered you like the four winds of the heavens,” declares Yahweh. 7 “Woe, Zion! Escape, you inhabitants of the daughter of Babylon!” 8 For thus said Yahweh of hosts, after glory he sent me against the nations plundering you: Truly, the one touching you is touching the apple of his eye. 9 “Yes, look! I am going to wave my hand against them, and they will become plunder for their servants, and you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me.

Where Yahweh is sent by Yahweh of hosts

The angel of the LORD isn't himself the LORD. The LORD and the angel of the LORD are speaking to one another. For your extremely bad theology to be true, you must have God talking to Himself. What a joke.

Zechariah 1 (NIV)
12Then the angel of the LORD said, “O LORD of hosts, how long will You have no compassion for Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been indignant these seventy years?” 13The LORD answered the angel who was speaking with me with gracious words, comforting words.

 

[Runningman]

He is the Runningman. We were all forewarned by his name.

His name Runningman forewarns you of what he will do and how he will respond.

As I have already said... you're going to wish I would run away. Day after day... month after month... I will be here again... and again... and again... and you may even start praying I leave. I will be here, blessed, undeterred, and determined and there's nothing you can do about it.

 

[Runningman]

You walked into this with your eyes wide open brother.

John 1:1-2
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God."

While this passage emphasizes the pre-existence of Jesus as "the Word" (Logos), it doesn’t use the word "eternal" directly. However, it does imply that Christ was present "in the beginning," sharing in the divine nature and eternal existence with God.

2. Micah 5:2
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting."

The phrase "from everlasting" here uses the Hebrew word עוֹלָם (olam), which is often translated as "eternity." This prophecy refers to the Messiah’s eternal origins but does not directly call Him "eternal."

3. Hebrews 1:10-12
"You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands; they will perish, but You remain... You are the same, and Your years will not fail."

The writer of Hebrews applies this quotation from Psalm 102 to Jesus, indicating His unchanging and enduring nature. Although it emphasizes the permanence of Christ, it does not explicitly use the term "eternal."

4. Colossians 1:17
"And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist."

Paul describes Christ as existing "before all things," suggesting His pre-temporal existence. However, the term "eternal" is not directly applied to Him here.
5. Revelation 1:8

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

This title for Jesus in Revelation conveys His divine nature and eternal presence throughout all time but does not use the specific term "eternal."

6. Hebrews 13:8
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."

This verse emphasizes the unchanging nature of Jesus, implying an eternal existence but without using "eternal" as a specific descriptor.

I am open for an honest conversation.

J.

Jesus is never called "eternal" in Scripture. I hold the Scriptural high ground here. Rather than make arguments about your interpretation... where is Jesus called "eternal" in the Bible? Go for it.

 

[Johann]

Jesus is never called "eternal" in Scripture. I hold the Scriptural high ground here. Rather than make arguments about your interpretation... where is Jesus called "eternal" in the Bible? Go for it.

While you may have a solid grasp of Scripture, your reasoning seems inconsistent and overlooks key points that have been clearly presented.

J.

 

[TomL]

The angel of the LORD isn't himself the LORD. The LORD and the angel of the LORD are speaking to one another. For your extremely bad theology to be true, you must have God talking to Himself. What a joke.

Zechariah 1 (NIV)
12Then the angel of the LORD said, “O LORD of hosts, how long will You have no compassion for Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been indignant these seventy years?” 13The LORD answered the angel who was speaking with me with gracious words, comforting words.

LOL

You ran from and denied the scripture

You ran from the issue
Oh so you believe scripture only when it fits your thinking

Jude 4 (LEB) — 4 For certain men have slipped in stealthily, who were designated long ago for this condemnation, ungodly ones, who change the grace of our God into licentiousness and who deny our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ.

So if you cannot take verses such as this to mean only Jesus is lord why do you accept verses which you believe only the father is God when there are verse which state Christ is God

All of God is father

There are three senses, it appears, in which "Father" is used in the New Testament in relation to God: (1) A Hebraism, common also in other religions, in which God is spoken of as the "Father" in the sense that he is Creator of all. (2) A parabolic sense of the word, very common in Jesus' teachings, in which "Father" is not intended to denote a distinct person in the Godhead, nor the fact of the creatorship of God, but the relation of God to the world or to individuals as "father" to children. This sense is often confused with the third sense: (3) A sense of the word in which it is clearly designed to refer to a specific individual personality, a technical term distinguishing the Father in the Godhead, in his internal relations, from the Son - E Calvin. Beisner



Um but Jesus is called YHWH when the New Testament speaks of him as being he who the Old Testament calls YHWH

example

Isaiah 6:1–5 (LEB) — 1 In the year of the death of Uzziah the king, I saw the Lord sitting on a high and raised throne, and the hem of his robe was filling the temple. 2 Seraphs were standing above him. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And the one called to the other and said, “Holy, holy, holy is Yahweh of hosts! The whole earth is full of his glory.” 4 And the pivots of the thresholds shook from the sound of those who called, and the house was filled with smoke. 5 And I said, “Woe to me! For I am destroyed! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I am living among a people of unclean lips, for my eyes have seen the king, Yahweh of hosts!”

Isaiah 6:6–10 (LEB) — 6 Then one of the seraphs flew to me, and in his hand was a hot coal he had taken from the altar with tongs. 7 And he touched my mouth, and he said, “Look! This has touched your lips and has removed your guilt, and your sin is annulled.” 8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” And I said, “I am here! Send me!” 9 And he said, “Go and say to this people, ‘Keep on listening and do not comprehend! And keep on looking and do not understand!’ 10 Make the heart of this people insensitive, and make its ears unresponsive, and shut its eyes so that it may not look with its eyes and listen with its ears and comprehend with its mind and turn back, and it may be healed for him.”

compare to

John 12:37–41 (LEB) — 37 But as many signs as he (Jesus)had performed before them, they did not believe in him, 38 in order that the word of the prophet Isaiah would be fulfilled, who said, “Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” 39 For this reason they were not able to believe, because again Isaiah said, 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn, and I heal them.” 41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his (Jesus) glory, and he spoke about him.








Scripture disagrees with you again

John 8:58–59 (LEB) — 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am!” 59 Then they picked up stones in order to throw them at him. But Jesus was hidden and went out of the temple courts.


Why did the Jews try to stone him

And here the angel of the lord appears to Jacob and is termed the God and YHWH


Genesis 31:11–13 (KJV 1900) — 11 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee. 13 I am the God of Beth-el, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.

The angel of the Lord tells Jacob he is the God of bethel where Jacob had made a vow unto him


Genesis 28:18–22 (LEB) — 18 And Jacob rose early in the morning, and he took the stone that he had put under his head and set it up as a stone pillar, and poured oil on top of it. 19 And he called the name of that place Bethel; however, the name of the city was formerly Luz. 20 And Jacob made a vow saying, “If God will be with me and protect me on this way that I am going, and gives me food to eat and clothing to wear, 21 and if I return in peace to the house of my father, then Yahweh will become my God. 22 And this stone that I have set up as a pillar shall be the house of God, and of all that you give to me I will certainly give a tenth to you.”

and here God speaks of the God who appeared to Jacob when he fled from Esau.had

Genesis 35:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Beth-el, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother. 2 Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments: 3 And let us arise, and go up to Beth-el; and I will make there an altar unto God, who answered me in the day of my distress, and was with me in the way which I went.

The Messenger (angel) of Yahweh is called God, the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, Elohim, Yahweh and the I am

Exodus 3:2–15 (LEB) — 2 And the angel of Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush, and he looked, and there was the bush burning with fire, but the bush was not being consumed. 3 And Moses said, “Let me turn aside and see this great sight. Why does the bush not burn up?” 4 And Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, and God called to him from the midst of the bush, and he said, “Moses, Moses.” And he said, “Here I am.” 5 And he said, “You must not come near to here. Take off your sandals from on your feet, because the place on which you are standing, it is holy ground.” 6 And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face because he was afraid of looking at God. 7 And Yahweh said, “Surely I have seen the misery of my people who are in Egypt, and I have heard their cry of distress because of their oppressors, for I know their sufferings. 8 And I have come down to deliver them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up from this land to a good and wide land, to a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Amorites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites. 9 And now, look, the cry of distress of the Israelites has come to me, and also I see the oppression with which the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 And now come, and I will send you to Pharaoh, and you must bring my people, the Israelites, out from Egypt.” 11 But Moses said to God, “Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and that I should bring the Israelites out from Egypt?” 12 And he said, “Because I am with you, and this will be the sign for you that I myself have sent you: When you bring the people out from Egypt, you will serve God on this mountain.” 13 But Moses said to God, “Look, if I go to the Israelites and I say to them, ‘The God of your ancestors has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is his name?’ then what shall I say to them?” 14 And God said to Moses, “I am that I am.” And he said, “So you must say to the Israelites, ‘I am sent me to you.’ ” 15 And God said again to Moses, “So you must say to the Israelites, ‘Yahweh, the God of your ancestors, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is my remembrance from generation to generation.’


The angel of the lord is the pre-incarnate Christ who followed the israeliyes in the desert

1 Corinthians 10:4 (LEB) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:7–9 (LEB) — 7 and not become idolaters, as some of them did, just as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play,” 8 nor commit sexual immorality, as some of them committed sexual immorality, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day, 9 nor put Christ to the test, as some of them tested him, and were destroyed by snakes,

Jude 5 (LEB) — 5 Now I want to remind you, although you know everything once and for all, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those who did not believe.

and what will you do with

Zechariah 2:6–9 (LEB) — 6 “Woe! Woe! Flee from the land of the north,” declares Yahweh, “for I have scattered you like the four winds of the heavens,” declares Yahweh. 7 “Woe, Zion! Escape, you inhabitants of the daughter of Babylon!” 8 For thus said Yahweh of hosts, after glory he sent me against the nations plundering you: Truly, the one touching you is touching the apple of his eye. 9 “Yes, look! I am going to wave my hand against them, and they will become plunder for their servants, and you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me.

Where Yahweh is sent by Yahweh of hosts

The argument is not that they are the same person but that they are the one God one Yahweh

So you addressed nothing

 

[synergy]

As I have already said... you're going to wish I would run away. Day after day... month after month... I will be here again... and again... and again... and you may even start praying I leave. I will be here, blessed, undeterred, and determined and there's nothing you can do about it.

It would be a great loss if you left. You have a great ability to quote verses that promote the Trinity and destroy unitarianism. Case in point is Rev 3:21. I would never have known about that verse had you never alerted us of it. You are an integral part of the Trinitarian Promoting Team.

 

[TomL]

As I have already said... you're going to wish I would run away. Day after day... month after month... I will be here again... and again... and again... and you may even start praying I leave. I will be here, blessed, undeterred, and determined and there's nothing you can do about it.

Actually your presence is detrimental to Unitarianism. Your bald denial and weird interpretation is a negative for it

 

[synergy]

Actually your presence is detrimental to Unitarianism. Your bald denial and weird interpretation is a negative for it

Exactly. He makes Trinitarians look real good and he quotes Bible verses which are all Trinitarian. We really need him.

 

[mikesw]

Exactly. He makes Trinitarians look real good and he quotes Bible verses which are all Trinitarian. We really need him.

It has been a great learning experience. One of the ways common in the scriptures is the use of contrasts to highlight important points. Many important and useful points have been affirmed about the Trinity through these discussions.

 

[TomL]

Jesus is never called "eternal" in Scripture. I hold the Scriptural high ground here. Rather than make arguments about your interpretation... where is Jesus called "eternal" in the Bible? Go for it.

No you don't and you contradict yourself with your interpretation of

1 John 1:1–2 (KJV 1900) — 1 THAT which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

 

[Runningman]

It would be a great loss if you left. You have a great ability to quote verses that promote the Trinity and destroy unitarianism. Case in point is Rev 3:21. I would never have known about that verse had you never alerted us of it. You are an integral part of the Trinitarian Promoting Team.

I've already disproven the Trinity. Whatever keeps you all commenting and this thread on the front page is good for Unitarianism. You all have absolutely failed to show anything about Jesus being prayed to in Scripture not any teachings concerning anyone praying to Jesus. The Bible doesn't belong to your religion. Amazing you all seem to think that helps Trinitarianism. I would say you're simply trying to compensate for the failures of Trinitarianism to be explained, described, or supported in Scripture with a display of false confidence.

 

[Runningman]

No you don't and you contradict yourself with your interpretation of

1 John 1:1–2 (KJV 1900) — 1 THAT which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

No matter how many times you try to say otherwise, you only prove my point by quoting the Scripture. The Scriptural ground is where all bets are in and Unitarianism takes all. Look at the passage you quoted... it says the Word is a That, which, and it. Eternal life is a thing.

 

[Runningman]

Actually your presence is detrimental to Unitarianism. Your bald denial and weird interpretation is a negative for it

No you're wrong... you all are in damage control mode.

 

[Runningman]

LOL

You ran from and denied the scripture




The argument is not that they are the same person but that they are the one God one Yahweh

So you addressed nothing

The presence of Zechariah 1:12,13 throws a wrench into your narrative. Your theology cannot coexist with that passage. Back to the drawing board for you.

 

[Runningman]

While you may have a solid grasp of Scripture, your reasoning seems inconsistent and overlooks key points that have been clearly presented.

J.

Bible needs to be interpreted around what it says, not the suggestions and assumptions. For example... why assume there is a Trinity first and interpret Scripture around this concept when the Scripture doesn't explain or describe the Trinity? Connecting verses from different contexts around the Bible isn't the same thing as God, Jesus, Paul, Peter, etc discussing the Trinity. I don't believe inference or deduction about what you believe the Bible says is the correct way to go.

 

[Johann]

Bible needs to be interpreted around what it says, not the suggestions and assumptions. For example... why assume there is a Trinity first and interpret Scripture around this concept when the Scripture doesn't explain or describe the Trinity? Connecting verses from different contexts around the Bible isn't the same thing as God, Jesus, Paul, Peter, etc discussing the Trinity. I don't believe inference or deduction about what you believe the Bible says is the correct way to go.

No problem, you have been bombarded and you still stand for what you believe is truth.

No further questions.

J.

 

[Fred]

Jesus is never called "eternal" in Scripture.

Yes, He is (Isaiah 9:6).

 

[synergy]

I've already disproven the Trinity. Whatever keeps you all commenting and this thread on the front page is good for Unitarianism. You all have absolutely failed to show anything about Jesus being prayed to in Scripture not any teachings concerning anyone praying to Jesus. The Bible doesn't belong to your religion. Amazing you all seem to think that helps Trinitarianism. I would say you're simply trying to compensate for the failures of Trinitarianism to be explained, described, or supported in Scripture with a display of false confidence.

Thank you so much for telling us about Rev 3:21 that clearly has Jesus on the Father's Throne receiving unlimited Worship and Prayers. Don't be so modest in accepting our appreciation for that verse. You deserve it.

 

[TomL]

The presence of Zechariah 1:12,13 throws a wrench into your narrative. Your theology cannot coexist with that passage. Back to the drawing board for you.

Sorry you are diverting again

You do not address this

You ran from the issue
Oh so you believe scripture only when it fits your thinking

Jude 4 (LEB) — 4 For certain men have slipped in stealthily, who were designated long ago for this condemnation, ungodly ones, who change the grace of our God into licentiousness and who deny our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ.

So if you cannot take verses such as this to mean only Jesus is lord why do you accept verses which you believe only the father is God when there are verse which state Christ is God

All of God is father

There are three senses, it appears, in which "Father" is used in the New Testament in relation to God: (1) A Hebraism, common also in other religions, in which God is spoken of as the "Father" in the sense that he is Creator of all. (2) A parabolic sense of the word, very common in Jesus' teachings, in which "Father" is not intended to denote a distinct person in the Godhead, nor the fact of the creatorship of God, but the relation of God to the world or to individuals as "father" to children. This sense is often confused with the third sense: (3) A sense of the word in which it is clearly designed to refer to a specific individual personality, a technical term distinguishing the Father in the Godhead, in his internal relations, from the Son - E Calvin. Beisner



Um but Jesus is called YHWH when the New Testament speaks of him as being he who the Old Testament calls YHWH

example

Isaiah 6:1–5 (LEB) — 1 In the year of the death of Uzziah the king, I saw the Lord sitting on a high and raised throne, and the hem of his robe was filling the temple. 2 Seraphs were standing above him. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And the one called to the other and said, “Holy, holy, holy is Yahweh of hosts! The whole earth is full of his glory.” 4 And the pivots of the thresholds shook from the sound of those who called, and the house was filled with smoke. 5 And I said, “Woe to me! For I am destroyed! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I am living among a people of unclean lips, for my eyes have seen the king, Yahweh of hosts!”

Isaiah 6:6–10 (LEB) — 6 Then one of the seraphs flew to me, and in his hand was a hot coal he had taken from the altar with tongs. 7 And he touched my mouth, and he said, “Look! This has touched your lips and has removed your guilt, and your sin is annulled.” 8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” And I said, “I am here! Send me!” 9 And he said, “Go and say to this people, ‘Keep on listening and do not comprehend! And keep on looking and do not understand!’ 10 Make the heart of this people insensitive, and make its ears unresponsive, and shut its eyes so that it may not look with its eyes and listen with its ears and comprehend with its mind and turn back, and it may be healed for him.”

compare to

John 12:37–41 (LEB) — 37 But as many signs as he (Jesus)had performed before them, they did not believe in him, 38 in order that the word of the prophet Isaiah would be fulfilled, who said, “Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” 39 For this reason they were not able to believe, because again Isaiah said, 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn, and I heal them.” 41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his (Jesus) glory, and he spoke about him.








Scripture disagrees with you again

John 8:58–59 (LEB) — 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am!” 59 Then they picked up stones in order to throw them at him. But Jesus was hidden and went out of the temple courts.


Why did the Jews try to stone him

And here the angel of the lord appears to Jacob and is termed the God and YHWH


Genesis 31:11–13 (KJV 1900) — 11 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee. 13 I am the God of Beth-el, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.

The angel of the Lord tells Jacob he is the God of bethel where Jacob had made a vow unto him


Genesis 28:18–22 (LEB) — 18 And Jacob rose early in the morning, and he took the stone that he had put under his head and set it up as a stone pillar, and poured oil on top of it. 19 And he called the name of that place Bethel; however, the name of the city was formerly Luz. 20 And Jacob made a vow saying, “If God will be with me and protect me on this way that I am going, and gives me food to eat and clothing to wear, 21 and if I return in peace to the house of my father, then Yahweh will become my God. 22 And this stone that I have set up as a pillar shall be the house of God, and of all that you give to me I will certainly give a tenth to you.”

and here God speaks of the God who appeared to Jacob when he fled from Esau.had

Genesis 35:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Beth-el, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother. 2 Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments: 3 And let us arise, and go up to Beth-el; and I will make there an altar unto God, who answered me in the day of my distress, and was with me in the way which I went.

The Messenger (angel) of Yahweh is called God, the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, Elohim, Yahweh and the I am

Exodus 3:2–15 (LEB) — 2 And the angel of Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush, and he looked, and there was the bush burning with fire, but the bush was not being consumed. 3 And Moses said, “Let me turn aside and see this great sight. Why does the bush not burn up?” 4 And Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, and God called to him from the midst of the bush, and he said, “Moses, Moses.” And he said, “Here I am.” 5 And he said, “You must not come near to here. Take off your sandals from on your feet, because the place on which you are standing, it is holy ground.” 6 And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face because he was afraid of looking at God. 7 And Yahweh said, “Surely I have seen the misery of my people who are in Egypt, and I have heard their cry of distress because of their oppressors, for I know their sufferings. 8 And I have come down to deliver them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up from this land to a good and wide land, to a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Amorites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites. 9 And now, look, the cry of distress of the Israelites has come to me, and also I see the oppression with which the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 And now come, and I will send you to Pharaoh, and you must bring my people, the Israelites, out from Egypt.” 11 But Moses said to God, “Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and that I should bring the Israelites out from Egypt?” 12 And he said, “Because I am with you, and this will be the sign for you that I myself have sent you: When you bring the people out from Egypt, you will serve God on this mountain.” 13 But Moses said to God, “Look, if I go to the Israelites and I say to them, ‘The God of your ancestors has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is his name?’ then what shall I say to them?” 14 And God said to Moses, “I am that I am.” And he said, “So you must say to the Israelites, ‘I am sent me to you.’ ” 15 And God said again to Moses, “So you must say to the Israelites, ‘Yahweh, the God of your ancestors, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is my remembrance from generation to generation.’


The angel of the lord is the pre-incarnate Christ who followed the israeliyes in the desert

1 Corinthians 10:4 (LEB) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:7–9 (LEB) — 7 and not become idolaters, as some of them did, just as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play,” 8 nor commit sexual immorality, as some of them committed sexual immorality, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day, 9 nor put Christ to the test, as some of them tested him, and were destroyed by snakes,

Jude 5 (LEB) — 5 Now I want to remind you, although you know everything once and for all, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those who did not believe.

and what will you do with

Zechariah 2:6–9 (LEB) — 6 “Woe! Woe! Flee from the land of the north,” declares Yahweh, “for I have scattered you like the four winds of the heavens,” declares Yahweh. 7 “Woe, Zion! Escape, you inhabitants of the daughter of Babylon!” 8 For thus said Yahweh of hosts, after glory he sent me against the nations plundering you: Truly, the one touching you is touching the apple of his eye. 9 “Yes, look! I am going to wave my hand against them, and they will become plunder for their servants, and you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me.

Where Yahweh is sent by Yahweh of hosts

Then confusedly you imagine the claim is that the angel of the Lord and YHWH are but one person

which was never the argument viz

And here the angel of the lord appears to Jacob and is termed the God and YHWH


Genesis 31:11–13 (KJV 1900) — 11 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee. 13 I am the God of Beth-el, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.

The angel of the Lord tells Jacob he is the God of bethel where Jacob had made a vow unto him


Genesis 28:18–22 (LEB) — 18 And Jacob rose early in the morning, and he took the stone that he had put under his head and set it up as a stone pillar, and poured oil on top of it. 19 And he called the name of that place Bethel; however, the name of the city was formerly Luz. 20 And Jacob made a vow saying, “If God will be with me and protect me on this way that I am going, and gives me food to eat and clothing to wear, 21 and if I return in peace to the house of my father, then Yahweh will become my God. 22 And this stone that I have set up as a pillar shall be the house of God, and of all that you give to me I will certainly give a tenth to you.”

and here God speaks of the God who appeared to Jacob when he fled from Esau.had

Genesis 35:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Beth-el, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother. 2 Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments: 3 And let us arise, and go up to Beth-el; and I will make there an altar unto God, who answered me in the day of my distress, and was with me in the way which I went.

The Messenger (angel) of Yahweh is called God, the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, Elohim, Yahweh and the I am

Exodus 3:2–15 (LEB) — 2 And the angel of Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush, and he looked, and there was the bush burning with fire, but the bush was not being consumed. 3 And Moses said, “Let me turn aside and see this great sight. Why does the bush not burn up?” 4 And Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, and God called to him from the midst of the bush, and he said, “Moses, Moses.” And he said, “Here I am.” 5 And he said, “You must not come near to here. Take off your sandals from on your feet, because the place on which you are standing, it is holy ground.” 6 And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face because he was afraid of looking at God. 7 And Yahweh said, “Surely I have seen the misery of my people who are in Egypt, and I have heard their cry of distress because of their oppressors, for I know their sufferings. 8 And I have come down to deliver them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up from this land to a good and wide land, to a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Amorites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites. 9 And now, look, the cry of distress of the Israelites has come to me, and also I see the oppression with which the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 And now come, and I will send you to Pharaoh, and you must bring my people, the Israelites, out from Egypt.” 11 But Moses said to God, “Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and that I should bring the Israelites out from Egypt?” 12 And he said, “Because I am with you, and this will be the sign for you that I myself have sent you: When you bring the people out from Egypt, you will serve God on this mountain.” 13 But Moses said to God, “Look, if I go to the Israelites and I say to them, ‘The God of your ancestors has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is his name?’ then what shall I say to them?” 14 And God said to Moses, “I am that I am.” And he said, “So you must say to the Israelites, ‘I am sent me to you.’ ” 15 And God said again to Moses, “So you must say to the Israelites, ‘Yahweh, the God of your ancestors, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is my remembrance from generation to generation.’


The angel of the lord is the pre-incarnate Christ who followed the israeliyes in the desert

1 Corinthians 10:4 (LEB) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:7–9 (LEB) — 7 and not become idolaters, as some of them did, just as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play,” 8 nor commit sexual immorality, as some of them committed sexual immorality, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day, 9 nor put Christ to the test, as some of them tested him, and were destroyed by snakes,

Jude 5 (LEB) — 5 Now I want to remind you, although you know everything once and for all, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those who did not believe.

and what will you do with

Zechariah 2:6–9 (LEB) — 6 “Woe! Woe! Flee from the land of the north,” declares Yahweh, “for I have scattered you like the four winds of the heavens,” declares Yahweh. 7 “Woe, Zion! Escape, you inhabitants of the daughter of Babylon!” 8 For thus said Yahweh of hosts, after glory he sent me against the nations plundering you: Truly, the one touching you is touching the apple of his eye. 9 “Yes, look! I am going to wave my hand against them, and they will become plunder for their servants, and you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me.

Where Yahweh is sent by Yahweh of hosts

and never answer it