The Bahá'í Faith: Teachings, History, and Practices

[Pancho Frijoles]

You share examples of wrong ideas about scripture here with the improper characterizations of what Christ was doing. He came as the prophet like unto Moses. He came to warn the people of judgment they were facing. The Pharisees were doing evil works and place their system above the Messiah sent to them. Anything system that mischaracterizes God is evil.

If we mischaracterize God as asking us to do evil things, then such idea is evil.
But we should be careful about confusing "mischaracterizing God" with having a wrong discourse about thousands of things that God may have revealed.
Some people could take your words to mean "any system who holds any wrong doctrine about God is evil", and that would be not just incorrect but dangerous.

The proponents may not fit that category due to their sharing from their beliefs, so a distinction can be made in that sense.
You pretend that the message of Christ is reduced to human-interaction morality

"Reduced"? Why would that be a "reduction" of the message of Christ?
Wasn't it his personal, distinctive commandment to us, and what He set as the distinctive feature of his disciples?
Weren't the fruits of the spirit the distinctive feature He established between false and true teachers?
Wasn't our interaction with the poor and needy the criteria for which in the Last Judgement he separates the saved from the dammned?
Isn't love what defines the "true religion" before God as per James?
Isn't love more important that faith and knowledge as per Paul's message to Corinthians?
Isn't love what defines who knows God and who is born again, as per in 1 John?

Think about that.
Love your neighbor is a BIG THING. That explains why God revealed that BIG THING to all people on earth, not just to Jews.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The Pharisees were doing evil works and place their system above the Messiah sent to them.

I agree.
Let's see how much time and effort Jesus used to refute their "system" theologically.
Jesus rather spent time revealing their hypocrisy, their moral example.
Jesus asked people to do what they said, not what they did.

 

[synergy]

Baha'is do not believe that God needs a substitutionary blood atonement to forgive the sins of men.
The cross signifies the love and obedience of Jesus, who chose to keep on his work despite knowing it would bring him persecution and death.
His work consisted in showing us the way for forgiveness of our sins and reconciliation with God.
So, in that sense, his life and death redeemed us, because He taught us what our condition was and how God could forgive us.

Thanks for that information. I see that the Baha'i attempt to find a happy medium that every faith can live with unfortunately fails with Christianity in my estimation. Christianity cannot be a party to the view that the Cross is not an Expiation.

 

[mikesw]

If we mischaracterize God as asking us to do evil things, then such idea is evil.
But we should be careful about confusing "mischaracterizing God" with having a wrong discourse about thousands of things that God may have revealed.
Some people could take your words to mean "any system who helds a wrong doctrine about God is evil", and that would be not just incorrect but dangerous.


"Reduced"? Why would that be a "reduction" of the message of Christ?
Wasn't it his personal, distinctive commandment to us, and what He set as the distinctive feature of his disciples?
Weren't the fruits of the spirit the distinctive feature He established between false and true teachers?
Wasn't our interaction with the poor and needy the criteria for which in the Last Judgement he separates the saved from the dammned?
Isn't love what defines the "true religion" before God as per James?
Isn't love more important that faith and knowledge as per Paul's message to Corinthians?
Isn't love what defines who knows God and who is born again, as per in 1 John?

Think about that.
Love your neighbor is a BIG THING. That explains why God revealed that BIG THING to all people on earth, not just to Jews.

You totally miss it. I can accept the idea that you can misunderstand the details of the Bible. But the simplest thing to recognize is that the first commandment is to love God. That means very little in your behavior is significant to God if you do not obey the first commandment. So your push for loving your neighbor, while appreciated by your neighbor if you are showing proper love, is in the backward priority. It is someone acting immorally but at least is not harmful physically to others.

 

[mikesw]

I agree.
Let's see how much time and effort Jesus use to refute their "system" theologically.
Jesus rather spent time revealing their hypocrisy, their moral example.
Jesus asked people to do what they said, not what they did.

Jesus asked for the Pharisees not to teach evil teachings denying God's will and spoke against them killing the Son of God for their selfish gains.

If someone accused me of being an evil tyrant and abusing my wives and mistreating my llamas and threatening to kill me, would I invite them to live in my household? Of course not. God is not inviting everyone into eternal life if all they do is misrepresent him.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Thanks for that information. I see that the Baha'i attempt to find a happy medium that every faith can live with unfortunately fails with Christianity in my estimation. Christianity cannot be a party to the view that the Cross is not an Expiation.

And still, I have the strong feeling that, at the time of pain and grief, the vast majority of Christians expect God to forgive his sins out of God's underserved mercy.

What Christ did on the cross, Christ already did.
But for the Christian sinner, believing in a substitutionary blood atonement will not be enough. They will want to experience God's mercy, God's relief, God's transformative power. Let me bring this example:

A Christian husband and a Baha'i husband have sex with a prostitute and repent.

They both will kneel down and weep.
They both will reflect on what they did and why it was wrong.
They both will feel miserable and confess their sin.
They both will desire never to do that again and recognize they can't do better without God.

The belief in the substitutionary blood atonement will not make a difference in how they experience repentance and the forgiveness of God.
What we can say is that the person who comes more humiliated, and who exerts more faith in the power of God, will enjoy the best healing experience. IT could be the Christian. It could be the Baha'i. It could be both of them or none of them. That's all we can say.

 

[mikesw]

And still, I have the strong feeling that, at the time of pain and grief, the vast majority of Christians expect God to forgive his sins out of God's underserved mercy.

What Christ did on the cross, Christ already did.
But for the Christian sinner, believing in a substitutionary blood atonement will not be enough. They will want to experience God's mercy, God's relief, God's transformative power. Let me bring this example:

A Christian husband and a Baha'i husband have sex with a prostitute and repent.

They both will kneel down and weep.
They both will reflect on what they did and why it was wrong.
They both will feel miserable and confess their sin.
They both will desire never to do that again and recognize they can't do better without God.

The belief in the substitutionary blood atonement will not make a difference in how they experience repentance and the forgiveness of God.
What we can say is that the person who comes more humiliated, and who exerts more faith in the power of God, will enjoy the best healing experience. That's all we can say.

That is denying scriptures. They have accept God through Christ Jesus, as the way and the truth and the life. When they have that relationship, then they can ask for forgiveness for lesser sins. Otherwise it is like saying "I hate you God but I still ask for you to forgive me for adultery." If that is someone's expectation to still receive forgiveness, it is opposite of what the Bible says and therefore is not a recommended alternative to what Christ teaches.

 

[Complete]

Hello @Pancho Frijoles

I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is God's only Begotten Son: and that the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ raised Him from the dead. I believe also that there is salvation in no other, for there is none other name, under heaven, given among men whereby we must be saved. That the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Is this believed?

In Christ Jesus
risen and glorified
and sat at God's right hand.

Chris

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You totally miss it. I can accept the idea that you can misunderstand the details of the Bible. But the simplest thing to recognize is that the first commandment is to love God. That means very little in your behavior is significant to God if you do not obey the first commandment. So your push for loving your neighbor, while appreciated by your neighbor if you are showing proper love, is in the backward priority. It is someone acting immorally but at least is not harmful physically to others.

As you remember, Jesus was asked which commandment was the most important. He was asked for one: the most important.
Interestingly, Jesus did not stop at mentioning the First Comandment, loving God above all things.
He went on and mentioned a second commandment, even when he had not been asked for a "second most important".
Why he did it? Well, he explained that the "second one" was " very similar" to the first one.

For Jesus, the way to exercise love for God was to exercise love your neighbor. Those two things were intimately related.
That's why Jesus couldn't conceive coming to God, without having come first to your neighbor.
That's why He couldn't conceive God forgiving our sins, without forgiving the sins of our neighbor.
That's why He couldn't conceive being recognized as "Lord", and entering the Kingdom he announced, without feeding the hungry.
That's why He couldn't conceive someone being called his disciple, without showing love, even to enemies.

So, loving your neighbor is not my push, mikesw. It is Jesus' push.
I invite you to push in the direction Jesus pushed. Let's push together!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Hello @Pancho Frijoles

I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is God's only Begotten Son: and that the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ raised Him from the dead. I believe also that there is salvation in no other, for there is none other name, under heaven, given among men whereby we must be saved. That the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Is this believed?

In Christ Jesus
risen and glorified
and sat at God's right hand.

Chris

Hi, my sister

Welcome to the thread and thanks for the question.

We believe that the Gospel (Message) taught by Jesus is eternal life, salvation, and the Only Way to the Father.
We believe this Gospel is eternal, and has been always taught to humanity, to all nations and people, through all Messengers or prophets.

So, everytime we read Jesus in the Bible refering to Himself, we believe He is talking about the Word, the Eternal Word he represents or manifests.
He is talking about the Word of God, the Gospel of God, the Message of God.

 

[mikesw]

As you remember, Jesus was asked which commandment was the most important. He was asked for one: the most important.
Interestingly, Jesus did not stop at mentioning the First Comandment, loving God above all things.
He went on and mentioned a second commandment, even when he had not been asked for a "second most important".
Why he did it? Well, he explained that the "second one" was " very similar" to the first one.

For Jesus, the way to exercise love for God was to exercise love your neighbor. Those two things were intimately related.
That's why Jesus couldn't conceive coming to God, without having come first to your neighbor.
That's why He couldn't conceive God forgiving our sins, without forgiving the sins of our neighbor.
That's why He couldn't conceive being recognized as "Lord", and entering the Kingdom he announced, without feeding the hungry.
That's why He couldn't conceive someone being called his disciple, without showing love, even to enemies.

So, loving your neighbor is not my push, mikesw. It is Jesus' push.
I invite you to push in the direction Jesus pushed. Let's push together!

I certainly am pushing for loving one's neighbor. If I deny Christ's divinity and the focus on God's forgiveness through Christ, I would be harming my neighbor.
It behooves the one who will listen that he seek out Christ in spirit and truth. So forgive me if I have to push for this neighborly love even as you push against it. I would hope you would have the same benefit that we Christians experience. If scripture said people are fine coming from any perception of the gods that they wanted, I certainly would accept their religions. However, God identifies himself in the triune sense and was identified uniquely as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, not by God of Cain, Esau, and Jezebel. There is obvious reason that other gods (and perceptions) were false.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

That is denying scriptures. They have accept God through Christ Jesus, as the way and the truth and the life. When they have that relationship, then they can ask for forgiveness for lesser sins. Otherwise it is like saying "I hate you God but I still ask for you to forgive me for adultery."

If the Baha'i was hating God, obviously he wouldn't be kneeling down, weeping, confessing his sin and expecting his Mercy.
He wouldn't be experiencing his relief and peace, and being transformed into a new person.
People who hate God don't do that. People who hate God try to hide their sins, to evade the voice of the Spirit and to keep commiting sins.

So, the very fact that God forgives the sins of the Jew, the Muslim, or the Baha'i, and changes their lives for good, is proof that God does not require a specific belief in the substitutionary blood atonement to extend his grace.

 

[mikesw]

If the Baha'i was hating God, obviously he wouldn't be kneeling down, weeping, confessing his sin and expecting his Mercy.
He wouldn't be experiencing his relief and peace, and being transformed into a new person.
People who hate God don't do that. People who hate God try to hide their sins, to evade the voice of the Spirit and to keep commiting sins.

So, the very fact that God forgives the sins of the Jew, the Muslim, or the Baha'i, and changes their lives for good, is proof that God does not require a specific belief in the substitutionary blood atonement to extend his grace.

we do not have scripture saying God forgives anyone that denies him while asking forgiveness.

 

[Complete]

Hi, my sister

Welcome to the thread and thanks for the question.

We believe that the Gospel (Message) taught by Jesus is eternal life, salvation, and the Only Way to the Father.
We believe this Gospel is eternal, and has been always taught to humanity, to all nations and people, through all Messengers or prophets.

So, everytime we read Jesus in the Bible refering to Himself, we believe He is talking about the Word, the Eternal Word he represents or manifests.
He is talking about the Word of God, the Gospel of God, the Message of God.

'In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by Him;
and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
In Him was life; and the life was the light of men.
(Joh 1:1-4)

Thank you for responding, @Pancho Frijoles,

* Do you believe all that I have listed in reply#168:-

I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is God's only Begotten Son: and that the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ raised Him from the dead. I believe also that there is salvation in no other, for there is none other name, under heaven, given among men whereby we must be saved. That the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

we do not have scripture saying God forgives anyone that denies him while asking forgiveness.

Please read the gospels again. Jesus gave very clear examples of how God forgives.
I give you four

1. The Parable of the Prodigal Son
2. The Parable of the King who forgives the debt of his subject
3. The Parable of the Pharisee and the tax payer
4. The Lord's Prayer and its corollary on the next verse.

Read please those Scriptures and let me know why the Baha'i would not receive forgiveness.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Hello @Pancho Frijoles

I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is God's only Begotten Son:

Yes, metaphorically

and that the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ raised Him from the dead.

Yes, metaphorically

I believe also that there is salvation in no other,

Yes, considering that "in Christ" means "in The Word", "in The Gospel" he preached and lived.

for there is none other name, under heaven, given among men whereby we must be saved.

Yes, under the same assumption. That when the text refers to Christ, it means the Message or Gospel.

That the wages of sin is death,

Yes, metaphorically. We think it refers to spiritual death, separation from God

but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Yes, considering that "Jesus Christ our Lord" means his Gospel, The Word of God

Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Yes, metaphorically

Is this believed?

In Christ Jesus
risen and glorified
and sat at God's right hand.

Yes, metaphorically

Chris

Thanks for your questions, Chris.

 

[mikesw]

Please read the gospels again. Jesus gave very clear examples of how God forgives.
I give you four

1. The Parable of the Prodigal Son
2. The Parable of the King who forgives the debt of his subject
3. The Parable of the Pharisee and the tax payer
4. The Lord's Prayer and its corollary on the next verse.

Read please those Scriptures and let me know why the Baha'i would not receive forgiveness.

You might have heard that after Jesus warned the people of Israel to repent before the judgment came, Jesus died on the cross and was raised from the dead so that people from all backgrounds would repent from their failure to follow God and of not recognizing he is the Messiah.

It does not help that people have their own forms of religiosity to express some contriteness in their religious system. We even know of people purposely harming their bodies to try to be right with God. People might as well just flog themselves (hit themselves with a whip or rod) as if that will make them right with God.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Dear @Complete

Please let me know if you think that God can forgive the sins of people who come to Him with a contrite, broken spirit, even if they are Jews, Muslims, Sikh, Baha'is or Zoroastrians.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Hi Synergy

Thanks for the interest and the link that brought me here.
Our Shiites and Sunis brothers are both followers of Islam.
Baha’i Faith is an independent religion rooted originally in shiite Islam, but we believe that revelation will continue as long as God keeps communicating with humankind. So we baha’is don’t believe that Mohammed was the last Manifestation of God. We believe that Bahá’u’lláh is the most recent manifestation from God and more will come in the future.

And the last one will be Anti-Christ to finish out satan's attack on humanity. And then the end of the age, whatever all that will mean.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You might have heard that after Jesus warned the people of Israel to repent before the judgment came, Jesus died on the cross and was raised from the dead so that people from all backgrounds would repent from their failure to follow God and of not recognizing he is the Messiah.

Have you wondered why was Jesus interested in being recognized as the Messiah?
Did such recognition have a sort of magical power to forgive sins and recompose the life of a person?
I don't think so, since the demons themselves are presented in the gospels as recognizing Jesus as the Messiah.

Then, why was Jesus interested in such recognition?
I'll tell you what I believe.
Jesus was interested in being recognized as the Annointed by God (the Messiah) in order to be followed.
If you recognize Jesus as coming from God and being anointed by God, you will practice what he asks you to practice.

It does not help that people have their own forms of religiosity to express some contriteness in their religious system.

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise. (Psalm 51:17)

We even know of people purposely harming their bodies to try to be right with God. People might as well just flog themselves (hit themselves with a whip or rod) as if that will make them right with God.

I know what you say and that is very sad.

But we are not talking here about people who do those things, crushed by their guilt or lack of faith.
We are talking here about people with a genuine repentance... whose lives are changed for good by the grace of God.