The difference between the corruption of the leaders during the time of Christ's incarnation was that God was doing a new movement of people being born again and made new creatures. If their corruption of religion was allowed to continue, the whole of the would have been corrupted too. Now people may come to Christ wherever the gospel is preached and thus not as influenced by corrupt leaders. Plus, Jesus is not incarnate now and thus is not physically around to address the issue of corrupted leaders. In the other case of some hypothetical ones saying you must conform to doctrinal orthodoxy, that is not in the control of those leaders whether a person comes to Christ or not. So their position is maybe a slight obstacle but it does not keep people from coming to know Christ inasmuch as forgiveness through the blood of Christ becomes a reality for those coming to Christ.
The Bahá'í Faith: Teachings, History, and Practices
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The blasphemy was calling God's Spirit's work to be of a false god. Of course the Pharisees acted evilly. They were trying to dissuade people from accepting the miracles. And there is the question of their doctrine to be claiming any other god to be the influence in the Son of God casting out demons. My point was the focus on the sense that the holding to the false gods in other religious frameworks still is blasphemy but it is not attributing the work of God as being of some other god. As such, those of other religions (with their respective gods) can still become Christians because their blasphemy is not about the work of God's Spirit.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Specifically, to an evil god, demon or spirit, which the accuser does not intend to worship... .precisely because he thinks is evil and despicable.
If a Muslim observes your holy life and thinks "This is Allah guiding and blessing mikesw" such Muslim is praising God and doing the right thing.
If a Muslim observes your holy life and thinks "This cannot be Allah, because mikesw is a Christian. This must be a case of self-deception / the work of a demon / a spirit of hypocresy / a fake holiness etc." then such Muslim is denying the works of God's spirit in your life.
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It hardly matters what a Muslim thinks, within his form of religion, he is blaspheming by holding to a false God. Basically anything he says about his god or from dependence on that god is blasphemy. I don't know if it would be an issue what that person says about me, since I'm a nobody and there is no obvious miracle or event to say God's Spirit is obvious in any specific situation that they would observe .
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I don't believe the Bible instructs literal evil. I believe it is a source of inspiration for an abundant life.
I'm saying that texts from the Bible can be used, and have been used, to either execute or perform evil.
The same thing applies to the Qur'an.
In regards to the Old Testament the examples are so abundant, so abundant, that probably you found problematic to include the Old Testament in your statement. But please, remember that you believe in the inspiration of the OT. That Jesus and his disciples believed in their divine origine. So, as Christian, you should also include in the defense of your faith the OT.
In regards to the New Testament, both slavery and the discrimination of women have been exercised and maintained on the basis of texts.
Oh my. Now you call God as doing evil. The instructions by God are in his righteous wisdom and are designed in his love. When peoples were destroyed, it was because of their evil practices, especially as they would interfere with the ultimate sending of the Messiah for the benefit of all who would come to him. Of course there were evil acts of people in scripture, but that is due to human nature. That is testimony against those people and can be a lesson to us not to follow in those ways. We also have the whole population destroyed in the Noahic flood. That purpose was not evil but rather was to save the world and preserve the creation of God. There are deeper theological reasons why God does not seem to take solutions that we would choose, but mainly we do not have grounds to judge God.
Have I misunderstood what you, as being Jewish, have said here?
There are many documented reasons for OT events and @mikesw has astutely touched upon several of them. So in interest of not losing focus on my question, I tuned our attention to simply the NT.
Here is my question again. Pease do tell us how in the world can the Qur'an verses of darkness be harmonized with the New Testament by the Baha'i fath?
The facts are that it was Christians, based on their Christian faith, that led the charge to abolish slavery.
William Wilberforce was a fervent Christian when he dedicated his life to end slavery in the British Empire. Tsar Alexander II abolished serfdom in Russia because of his Christian faith. Lincoln abolished slavery in the US.
Did you know who was the real engine behind the African Slave Trade? It was Islam. The Western nations were definitely guilty of their part but the real engine that produced slaves was Islam! When Islam swept through Northern Africa they gave most Africans an ultimatum: either convert to Islam or be sold into slavery. And it gets even worse! The Slaves sent to Saudi Arabia and thereabouts were not allowed to procreate so their lineage was exterminated from the face of the Earth.
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Hi synergy
The New Testament is one thing. Christians are a different thing.
Some Christians supported slavery based on their understanding of Paul's verses calling slaves to keep obeying their masters, while some other Christians abolished slavery based on their understanding of Bible's verses on love, justice and equality.
Same with the Qur'an.
The Qur'an is one thing. Muslims are a different thing.
Some Muslims supported discrimination and persecution of people from other faiths based on their understanding of some verses, as those you have quoted, while other Muslims have favored tolerance, peace and respect based on their understanding of Quran's verses on tolerance, mercy and justice.
So, saying that Islam was the real engine behind the African Slave Trade is absurd.
People from all religions, including thousands of Christians, Muslims, and believers of African native cults, as well as non-believers, practiced slavery and every kind of sin we can imagine. Most of the times not because their ethical or theological background, but in spite of it.
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
The answer is: using the same arguments that you use to explain why God ordered to kill apostates in the Bible, as well as gay people and adulterers. The same arguments that you use to explain why God ordered to kill even innocent children from other nations. The same argument you use to explain why Paul didn't call masters to free their slaves, or why he didn't call slaves to demand their freedom.
The argument is: context.
God reveals his will depending on what the people is ready to understand and execute, given the circumstances.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Hi mikesw
You have misunderstood me.
I'm telling our friend synergy that the same standard used to explain what you have explained about the Bible, is the standard to be used to explain the verses he has quoted in the Qur'an.
God is not evil. Neither in the Bible, nor in the Qur'an.
There have been evil readers of the Bible and evil readers of the Qur'an, which is a very different thing.
the idea of evil readers of the Bible has no relevance except to note that in some situations those who are quoting scriptures are acting in human capacities that can misunderstand scripture, misuse it or not even be Christians. Then your point about all sorts of religions involved in the slave trade is an overstatement regarding Christianity, since the slave trade and ownership was rather limited -- mainly to evil trade merchants and mostly to slave owners but infiltrated into the southern society of America. Fewer people in the South were abusers within the system.
I don't know what claims Muslims make about the Qur'an. The thing I understand is that there were all sorts of candidates available to be treated as the Quran. It was not until the late 1800s that some professor made the official one. I do not think that qualifies well for any comparison to the Bible.
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Muslims worship the Only and True God, the same you love and worship.
Allah is the Arabic name for God.
Allah is the All-Merciful, All-Powerful, Creator and Sustainer of our lives. The God of Abraham, the God Jesus worshiped and prayed to.
If their understanding of some aspects of God is different than mine, that is a different story.
If I qualify the God a person worships as "true God" or "false god" based on how identical it is his understanding to my understanding, then I will conclude that all people in the world worship false gods, except by me.
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you have sort of the option to hope that you are finding these other gods equivalent to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That does not change it being blaspheme to follow one of these other gods. Especially notable is they are not told that Jesus is the way to know God and that all other paths are wrong.
At minimal, you cannot say the Bible endorses your view that these other gods are the same as the true God.
The NT has clearly abrogated in writing and in no uncertain terms any notion of killing another person. The Qur'an evidently has not. The Qur'an continues to promote violence and murder in very detailed and graphical ways. As such the NT and the Qur'an are like matter and anti-matter in relationship to each other. So again I ask: what is the Baha'i blueprint for uniting the Bible and the Qur'an?
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Could you please refer to or quote that NT passage?
The notion that killing another person is wrong is present since the story of Cain and Abel, and it is unequivocally stated in the Ten Commandments: "Thou shalt not kill". So, we are not talking here about Christianity abrogating a spiritual notion held by Jews, because this notion was already upheld and would continue to be upheld by all human beings, Jews or Buddhists.
We are rather referring to application to specific contexts.
When Jesus asks Peter not to use the sword in his defense, it was because the exchange of violence that would result in that moment, in that specific circumstance, would bring their destruction without any benefit. His disciples were not to fight the established Roman authorities.
Paul recognized that exerting force with a sword was not only necessary, but part of being a servant of God.
Rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil works. Do you wish to have no fear of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from him, for he is the servant of God for your good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain, for he is the servant of God, an avenger to execute wrath upon him who practices evil. (Romans 13:3,4)
Why do Paul seem to leave the use of the sword to established authorities? Because early Christians were living within a well-organized Roman Empire with laws, tribunals, and order.
In contrast, early Muslims in the Arab peninsula faced chaotic, primitive tribal warfare, much more similar to that Hebrews met when fighting Canaanites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites, Jebusites and the like.
Prophet Mohammed could not have said to his followers to trust in the sword of authorities, tribunals or laws, because they ranged from non-effective to just non-existent.
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I find 3 critical flaws with your reasoning.
- First and foremost, Christ's 'Kingdom is not of this world". Christ had previously emphasized that to his Disciples and made it very clear to Pilate that was his mission all the time. I don't recall Muhammad ever saying anything even remotely related to what Christ said, do you?
- You severely mischaracterized the Roman authorities. If that was protection that the Romans authorities gave the Christians, who needs Nazi SS Assassinators?
- Muslims are now living within a well-organized government with laws, tribunals, and order. What's your excuse now for them keeping their cut throat Qur'an verses?
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
The mission of each Messenger of God has its own unique features. Why would you expect Moses, Jesus, Mohammed and Baha’u’llah to have identical discourses? Do the 66 books of the Bible have identical discourses? There is more similarity between the Qu’ran and the Book of Mark than between The Book of Mark and the Book of Esther. Why do you then take Esther as inspired, and not the Quran?
In all revelations, there is not only a spiritual, but also a material dimension of the Kingdom.
In the Mosaic revelation, the nation of Israel is paramount.
In Christian revelation, the church, which is compared to fhe body of Christ.
In Islamic revelation, the uma, the community of believers .
In Baha’i revelation, the human family as a whole.
The Roman authorities gave a lot of protection to Christians (as to most other religions) over long periods of time.
Persecutions were limited in time and scope. I respectfully encourage you to refresh your knowledge of History of Christianism.
That is why Roman judiciary system acted as servant of God for the most part. Paul was not wrong. Was he?
What do you mean by “keeping” those verses”? Would you like them to be deleted from the Qu’ran?
Are you willing to delete dozens of similar verses from the Bible, because circumstances have changed?
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Do you mean biological death?
That is a natural and good part of God’s creation. Not an illness.
When I die, I will thankfully give my body back to God, so that other organisms can be nurtured from the components of my cells.
The biggest illness of men is the separation from God, spiritual death.
Christ mission is about our souls.
Whether the resurrected body of Jesus has skin, intestines and blood, or it is metaphorical, it has nothing to do with the fact that Christ is alive, that you love Him and follow his Message. His effect on your life is real. You are being healed and restored and saved.
There is no "unique features" as far as Christianity is concerned. Everything in each Bible Chapter points to Jesus and to no one else. There is nothing beyond Jesus nor can there be. As such, Muhammad is an illegitimate obstruction to one's path to the True God.
So you're taking issue with Jesus' Kingdom not being of this world as He explicitely stated on record? You can file an official complaint at your nearest Church.
Paul's writing was forseeeing a time when the Empire would protect Christianity. That officially happened under Emporer Constantine in the 4th century when he officially legalized Christianity. That meant that Christianity was persecuted for over 300 years. Every Apostle was murdered except for John. I don't know about you but 300 years of persecutions and murdering does not sound "limited in time" to me.
Paul was writing about the intent of what governments should be. Obviously, the Nazi government did not live up to those intentions and neither did the Roman Empire.
Multiple abrogations were already performed and recorded in the NT. For example, the abrogation of the "eye for an eye" judgment happened in the NT. Many more abrogations happened and were recorded in the NT. A quarrel broke out between Paul and Peter because of all the abrogations that had to happen. I am truly surprised that you have not picked up on these facts as a Baha'i. This goes to show you how Islamic the Baha'i faith is.
Since the Baha'i faith has fumbled the ball in its quest for unity snd because you asked me what I would do, here are 2 steps I would immediately do:
1. Abrogate all cut throat verses in the Qur'an.
2. Replace the entirety of the Qur'an with the Bible. That's because try as I can I just could not merge the Bible and the Qur'an together. There are just too many beliefs that are diametrically opposed to each other.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
As you know, the term "world", is used in the New Testament with two main meanings:
- The evil or corrupted systems, practices, governments, values
- Humanity, society.
I have given them Your word. And the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one
So, in the sense of meaning # 2, Jesus Kingdom is also of this world, and you know it.
Was Jesus church taken from the world, up in the air? No.
You are in the world. You are called to be the light of the world, the salt of the world, and to love the world. God sent Jesus because God loved the world.
There is no spiritual kingdom which is not meant to change the material conditions of humanity.
If a mother has entered the spiritual kingdom of God, her family will experience changes. And if her family experiences changes, her neighborhood will experience change. And if her neighborhood experiences change, so will the community, the city, the nation. Changes will be felt in economy, science, education, communication, labor relationships, politics, everything!
That's why when you read the Scriptures, you see Moses, Jesus and the apostles giving laws or advice to improve the community, the nation.
The construction of the uma, the community of believers of God, is Mohammed's version of this.
And now the time has come, for the global human family to establish the Kingdom of God on earth. This is the Cause of Baha'u'llah.
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