The Bahá'í Faith: Teachings, History, and Practices

[mikesw]

The discourse of the New Testament is not the same of that of the Old Testament. That’s why Jews differ from Christians.
Within the Old Testament, the discourse of pre-exile documents is not the same of that of post-exlie. That’s why Saducees differ from Pharisees, or Jehova Witness differs from other Christians on the state of the dead.
Yet, all these different discourses are One in essence.

We baha’is believe in the unity of religions in essence.


Yes, pretty much like in the transfiguration.
Jesus is the Light of the World and you, my friend synergy, are the light of the world, so that others can see your good deeds and glorify the Father.
Therefore, the Father is glorified in you when you reflect the light of Christ, just as the Father was glorified in Christ when Christ Reflected his light.
Certainly this is all metaphorical language but I believe give us a pretty good idea of Bahá’u’lláh’s words.

That is really a good example of the confusion you are creating. Jews failed to follow their Messiah and the temple and their country was destroyed. Also, the New Testament reveals the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies and thus is a continuous writing that we call the Bible. The Sadducees and Pharisees were part of the corrupt system that God judged. They were judged because they were corrupting the knowledge of God. You cannot say that people holding to the corrupted knowledge of God are pleasing to God and of the same status as those who have become new creatures in Christ.
Next there cannot be correspondence with Christ's teaching to that of Bahá’u’lláh, since Bahá’u’lláh does not recognize Christ's divinity and Christ's unique message to the world. That is pure contradiction. Christ died for our sins to reconcile us to God.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

OT Prophets would preface God's statements as "Thus says the Lord..." That clearly establishes who says what. In the case of the Burning Bush, no such preface was mentioned. So if what you say is true then we are talking about an imposter.

A Manifestation of God is more than a regular prophet.
Many men and women had had the gift of prophecy, but a Manifestation of God has a very different status.
That’s why Jesus could claim to know the Father, to be one with the Father, and could say that having seen Him was like having seen his Father.

Even so, the Angel of YHWH is not YHWH and this is the reason why it is refered to as malak, Angel, Messenger. We should not supress that title because it means something. May I ask what “malak” means for you?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

That is really a good example of the confusion you are creating. Jews failed to follow their Messiah and the temple and their country was destroyed. Also, the New Testament reveals the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies and thus is a continuous writing that we call the Bible.

I’m sure that for you it is continuous… but For the rabbi who lives next door, it is not continuous, but utterly disruptive.
Same for the Holy Quran. For me it is not continuous with the Sacred Bible, but for you utterly disruptive.


The Jew does not believe that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the Tanakh.
I do.
At this point, you don’t think that Bahá’u’lláh fulfills the prophecies of the Bible.
I do.

Next there cannot be correspondence with Christ's teaching to that of Bahá’u’lláh, since Bahá’u’lláh does not recognize Christ's divinity and Christ's unique message to the world. That is pure contradiction. Christ died for our sins to reconcile us to God.

I see your point, mikesw.
I don’t believe Jesus is God and I don’t believe in a blood substitutionary atonement. So I don’t see any contradiction.

 

[mikesw]

I’m sure that for you it is continuous… but For the rabbi who lives next door, it is not continuous, but utterly disruptive.
Same for the Holy Quran. For me it is not continuous with the Sacred Bible, but for you utterly disruptive.


The Jew does not believe that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the Tanakh.
I do.
At this point, you don’t think that Bahá’u’lláh fulfills the prophecies of the Bible.
I do.


I see your point, mikesw.
I don’t believe Jesus is God and I don’t believe in a blood substitutionary atonement. So I don’t see any contradiction.

It does not matter what you believe if it is self-contradictory and inconsistent with truth. Your ideas cannot be truth due to the inherent contradictions and double-speak. Your lack of belief of Christ's work makes your subsuming of Christ into a unified humanity a false concept.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

God clearly instructs Moses to say the following: you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you in Ex 3:14. That clearly establishes the direct correlation between Christ's claim to being "I Am" and the OT God who calls Himself "I Am".

Exo 3:14 And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And He said, So you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.

• In Exodus 3:16, we learn that the God named “I Am who I am being” or “I am who I am” is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
• In Acts 3:13 we learn that Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
• Conclusion: Jesus is NOT the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and NOT the “I am who I am”

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

It does not matter what you believe if it is self-contradictory and inconsistent with truth.

In this Forum the beliefs of each member matter. Otherwise, The Forum would not exist and each one of us would just settle down with reading the Scriptures at home in silence.
Your beliefs matter, mikesw, even when I think that some are self-contradictory and inconsistent with truth.
You are a noble and precious child of God. I thank you and thank God for your contribution to the perspectives shared in this thread.

 

[mikesw]

In this Forum the beliefs of each member matter. Otherwise, The Forum would not exist and each one of us would just settle down with reading the Scriptures at home in silence.
Your beliefs matter, mikesw, even when I think that some are self-contradictory and inconsistent with truth.
You are a noble and precious child of God. I thank you and thank God for your contribution to the perspectives shared in this thread.

the benefit of getting the beliefs into open discussions can be to learn when those beliefs go against logic so that people can follow the better option. It may be interesting at times to hear what others believe, but when it messes up the conception of Christ some correction is worthwhile. Also, even among people who seem to be Christians, it can help to see if any doctrine could use revising. We have that Trinitarian doctrine which some people are trying to offer unique alternatives and others restoring rejected beliefs.

 

[synergy]

Yes, I am refering to the Father.
I noticed that you immediately recognized the Father as the God of Shema, Israel, YHWH, didn’t you?
You immediately recognized the Father as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, didn’t you?

The One who sent Jesus was God the Father.

Within the Shema is God the Father along with the other 2 Persons.

You know that YHWH is the God of Abraham, who is in turn the Father of Jesus. That’s why you immediately answered “That would be God the Father”.
Your identification is correct, explicit. spontaneous, revealed by God. and in line with Peter’s identification of Jesus as the Son of Abraham.

*******

As the Bible revealed before, Jesus referred to Himself as the “I Am”, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who existed before Abraham's time. Any attempt to change that fact is futile.

When in the same hospital hall a Jew mother, a Mormon mother, a Methodist mother and a Muslim mother pray to God for the healing of their respective daugthers with refractory leukemia, the One God is listening to all of them
When they pray repented for a sin they have comitted, the One and Only God forgives all of them.
When they interact in a Forum of Internet and share their experiences about how God gives consolation to mothers of children with terminal diseases, every time they write “God”, they understand Who they are talking about. They do not need to ask each other Which God are you talking about?

God knows best how to interact with and forgive people. That is way above my pay grade. This does not change the fact that Jesus is “My Lord and My God.” Unitarians deny that Biblical quote and fact.

 

[synergy]

The discourse of the New Testament is not the same of that of the Old Testament. That’s why Jews differ from Christians.
Within the Old Testament, the discourse of pre-exile documents is not the same of that of post-exlie. That’s why Saducees differ from Pharisees, or Jehova Witness differs from other Christians on the state of the dead.
Yet, all these different discourses are One in essence.

We baha’is believe in the unity of religions in essence.

The Old Testament flawlessly leads into the New Testament. The OT talks about the Pre-Incarnate Christ as Theophanies and Types. The NT talks about Christ in the flesh, Crucified, and in His current Glory. Across all those events, many things changed but Christ is always the center of everything. The Qur’an, on the other hand, denies the Cross and is therefore an abomination.

Yes, pretty much like in the transfiguration.
Jesus is the Light of the World and you, my friend synergy, are the light of the world, so that others can see your good deeds and glorify the Father.
Therefore, the Father is glorified in you when you reflect the light of Christ, just as the Father was glorified in Christ when Christ Reflected his light.
Certainly this is all metaphorical language but I believe give us a pretty good idea of Bahá’u’lláh’s words.

Carefully read John 1:8-9. John, like all other Prophets & Christians, was just a “witness of that Light”. Christ, on the other hand, was “the true Light which gives light to every man”. Jesus is the Light source whereas John is just a witness to that Light – a massive difference between Jesus and everyone else.

 

[synergy]

Ok, I’ll use positive statements.
A Pentecostal will refrain from speaking in tongues in the solemn meeting of Lutherans, and the Muslim would refrain from shouting out the shahada in the meeting of Christians.
Paul will not ask for the origin of the meat on the table if the host was of Greek origin, but would ask for it if the host was an observing Jew.

Pentecostal need not refrain from speaking in tongues if that is in line with the gifts of the Holy Spirit as mentioned in and attested to in the NT.

The Cross-Denying Muslim better keep quiet if he knows what’s good for him.

I would not ask you to remove your belief about the deity of Jesus as a requisite for our unity.
I consider our unity far more important that any removal of a non essential doctrine.

Tell me how "non-essential" does the following verse sound to you:

(John 8:24) Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins.

 

[synergy]

A Manifestation of God is more than a regular prophet.
Many men and women had had the gift of prophecy, but a Manifestation of God has a very different status.
That’s why Jesus could claim to know the Father, to be one with the Father, and could say that having seen Him was like having seen his Father.

Even so, the Angel of YHWH is not YHWH and this is the reason why it is refered to as malak, Angel, Messenger. We should not supress that title because it means something. May I ask what “malak” means for you?

I’m not suppressing anything. When the Angel/Messenger of the Lord says that He is “the God of your father…”, I immediately believe Him. Do you believe Jesus when He declared Himself the “I Am” OT God who existed before Abraham’s time?

I have no problem with Jesus having the title Angel/Messenger of the Lord. He has dozens of other titles and none of them takes anything away from the fact that Jesus is God.

 

[synergy]

• In Exodus 3:16, we learn that the God named “I Am who I am being” or “I am who I am” is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
• In Acts 3:13 we learn that Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
• Conclusion: Jesus is NOT the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and NOT the “I am who I am”

The difference between Trinitarianism and everything else is that only Trinitarianism does not contradict any of the verses put forward by you or me. No other belief can say that. All Unitarian beliefs stumble horribly in explaining John 8:58 and many other verses for that matter. They end up denying exactly what Jesus said in John 8:58.

Notice how the Angel of the Lord calls Himself “the God of your father…” Since God is Trinitarian then it can be said that the Angel of the Lord can be all 3 Persons, not just one. There is no Trinitarian contradiction anywhere.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Good morning, Bob.
I see in your photo profile that you play the banjo. I love the sound of banjo in American country and folk music. .I play just a bit of guitar, but I play mostly the piano.

I used to play some honky-tonk piano, and a little Boogie. I don't have the muscle memory for piano any more though. and since I'm not in "Performing bands" Any more some of it is slipping away. There are MANY "Jams" in the bluegrass genre in Dallas srea, and there are three that I attend with some regularity. but at 82, it's time to start acting my age, and limit my "travel time" to reasonable distances (anything under an hour is "Texas local"). I USED to play Banjo in the "Worship team at church, back in the last century when CHurch music was "traditional"., but switched to Bass, and with the onset of "Contemporary music", now I just listen.

I’ll pray for you today

Prayers are always appreciated. My cardio tells me that I've been in A-fib consistently since February, and I seem to be experiencing the popular symptoms thereof. They'll do an ablation in August to see about getting me back in proper rhythm, and put a "Watchman" in to prevent clots. perhaps then I'll be able to be a bit more active.

 

[synergy]

We believe that the God of Noah, Zoroaster, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh is the same God.

All of them believed that God was One, Almighty, All Merciful, All Wise, Eternal, Creator and Sustainer of the Universe.
These are the essential attributes of God.

Now, God manifests Himself with different names, analogies, titles, and specific plans to suit the needs and capacities of His children.
For example, let's take the concept of God as a Father.
In the Old Testament, the references to God as "Father" are very very scarce (if I remember correctly, perhaps only in post-exile writings). However, Jesus speaks of God as "Father". There is reason for that. However, Jesus worshiped the same God that all ancient Israelites worshiped.

As religions develop, also the believer's ideas of God develop... for good or for bad.
The fact that our discourse or theology about God differs does NOT mean, though, that we worship different gods.

I would be interested to know if there was any Baha'i study on the harmonization of the Qur'an and the Bible? Personally, my conclusion of such a study would be summarized and stamped as "Mission Impossible" - that it would be the same as harmonizing matter and anti-matter.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I would be interested to know if there was any Baha'i study on the harmonization of the Qur'an and the Bible? Personally, my conclusion of such a study would be summarized and stamped as "Mission Impossible" - that it would be the same as harmonizing matter and anti-matter.

Good morning synergy and @civic

May your week be a blessed one. Let me start answering your question by asking: Is your life and my life like matter vs anti-matter?
Am I inciting our readers to put God aside and live an evil life?
If the answer is "No", then the books we regard as sacred and influential shouldn't be as antagonist as matter vs anti-matter.
If the answer is "Yes", then you should stop interacting with me right away or denounce me with the Administrator.

The Bible leads us to recognize God as your Creator, the Almighty and All-Merciful Sustainer and Judge, and to submit our life to Him. So does the Qur'an.
Submitting our life to God means that our thoughts, purposes, words, deeds, are all aligned to serve Him.
This is the Gospel that is said to have been preached at all times to all people on earth:

Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the eternal gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. He said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give Him glory, for the hour of His judgment has come. Worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.” (Revelation 14:6,7)​

Certainly, we will find differences between the Quran and the Bible, but we will find also differences within the Bible itself.
There are Jewish rabbis who will tell us that the New Testament is not compatible with the Tanakh and will point out to concrete, striking differences. We will have to tell then that we believe in the New Testament by faith, and that we are spiritualizing many of the commandments or prophecies contained in the Tanakh.

I would support you in such debate with a Jewish Rabbi. We would be on the same side in most of the debate.
I would tell the Jewish Rabbi that although I fully recognize those differences, they are not essential. It is not like matter vs antimatter.
Well, the same thing happens with the Qur'an and the Bible, or the Baha'i Writings and the Qur'an.

 

[mikesw]

Hi synergy

Is your life and my life like matter vs anti-matter?
Am I inciting our readers to put God aside and live an evil life?
If the answer is "No", then the books we regard as sacred and influential shouldn't be as antagonist as matter vs anti-matter.
If the answer is "Yes", then you should stop interacting with me right away or denounce me with the Administrator.

The Bible leads us to recognize God as your Creator, the Almighty and All-Merciful Sustainer and Judge, and to submit our life to Him. So does the Qur'an.
Submitting our life to God means that our thoughts, purposes, words, deeds, are all aligned to serve Him.
This is the Gospel that is said to have been preached at all times to all people on earth:

Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the eternal gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. He said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give Him glory, for the hour of His judgment has come. Worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.” (Revelation 14:6,7)​

Certainly, we will find differences between the Quran and the Bible, but we will find also differences within the Bible itself.
There are Jewish rabbis who will tell us that the New Testament is not compatible with the Tanakh and will point out to concrete, striking differences. We will have to tell then that we believe in the New Testament by faith, and that we are spiritualizing many of the commandments or prophecies contained in the Tanakh.

I would support you in such debate with a Jewish Rabbi. We would be on the same side in most of the debate.
I would tell the Jewish Rabbi that although I fully recognize those differences, they are not essential. It is not like matter vs antimatter.
Well, the same thing happens with the Qur'an and the Bible, or the Baha'i Writings and the Qur'an.

Some interaction is reasonable especially in a forum that let's people come from diverse viewpoints to discuss ideas. This is an apologetics area and some open discussion is the goal. It can verge on evil where a view is diminishing Christ as the only one through whom people get justified and receive eternal life. The website is likely accepting ideas that are evil in themselves inasmuch as these do not incite harm on other people -- as if often found in various website's terms of use.
Your point about the rabbis of course misses the derivation of rabbinic Judaism from the Pharisaical system that God condemned. So different views of scripture does not mean they all are equally good. The critical thing Jesus taught is that eternal life is knowing God such that those who deceive about God are thereby preventing knowledge of him. That is why only Christ is the way, the truth, and the life.

 

[synergy]

Good morning synergy and @civic

May your week be a blessed one. Let me start answering your question by asking: Is your life and my life like matter vs anti-matter?
Am I inciting our readers to put God aside and live an evil life?
If the answer is "No", then the books we regard as sacred and influential shouldn't be as antagonist as matter vs anti-matter.
If the answer is "Yes", then you should stop interacting with me right away or denounce me with the Administrator.

The Bible leads us to recognize God as your Creator, the Almighty and All-Merciful Sustainer and Judge, and to submit our life to Him. So does the Qur'an.
Submitting our life to God means that our thoughts, purposes, words, deeds, are all aligned to serve Him.
This is the Gospel that is said to have been preached at all times to all people on earth:

Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the eternal gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. He said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give Him glory, for the hour of His judgment has come. Worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.” (Revelation 14:6,7)​

Certainly, we will find differences between the Quran and the Bible, but we will find also differences within the Bible itself.
There are Jewish rabbis who will tell us that the New Testament is not compatible with the Tanakh and will point out to concrete, striking differences. We will have to tell then that we believe in the New Testament by faith, and that we are spiritualizing many of the commandments or prophecies contained in the Tanakh.

I would support you in such debate with a Jewish Rabbi. We would be on the same side in most of the debate.
I would tell the Jewish Rabbi that although I fully recognize those differences, they are not essential. It is not like matter vs antimatter.
Well, the same thing happens with the Qur'an and the Bible, or the Baha'i Writings and the Qur'an.

Hi Pancho. As I said in my comments, those were my personal conclusions and everyone has the personal free choice to deposit them in the nearest waste paper basket if they so wish to do so. There is absolutely no need for any Administrator reporting on our part and I hope none on your part either.

Permit me to ask my question again. What is the Baha'i blueprint for harmonizing the Christian and Muslim faiths? More specifically, how does the Baha'i faith stand with respect to the Cross which is the centerpiece of the Christian faith and is totally denied by Muslims? Accepting the Cross must be in its entirety with all its implications and ramifications or else it's just a wishy washy solution that profits no one.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Some interaction is reasonable especially in a forum that let's people come from diverse viewpoints to discuss ideas. This is an apologetics area and some open discussion is the goal. It can verge on evil where a view is diminishing Christ as the only one through whom people get justified and receive eternal life. The website is likely accepting ideas that are evil in themselves inasmuch as these do not incite harm on other people -- as if often found in various website's terms of use.

Hi mikesw

Let me emphasize a thing that I find of utmost importance.
We must make a difference between evil ideas and wrong ideas.
There are millions of wrong ideas in the minds of people. Nobody is free from error. Nobody.
However, only a tiny fraction of wrong ideas leads people to consider doing evil deeds.

If we learn that a lady helped the Nazis to persecute Jews because she was convinced that Jews were the enemies of society, she clearly held an evil idea. It didn't matter if such lady was Unitarian or Trinitarian, Catholic or Protestant. However right or wrong her ideas on Trinity, the Virgin Mary, Bible inerrancy or child baptism could be, those ideas had no bearing in her deeds. Nothing suggests that she would have done different if her theology would have been different.

I invite you to read in the New Testament why Jesus and the apostles were worried about false teachers.
I invite you to read how much time they invested in using a theological apologetics to refute them.
You will find that they were concerned about the moral example they had on the brethren.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Hi Pancho. As I said in my comments, those were my personal conclusions and everyone has the personal free choice to deposit them in the nearest waste paper basket if they so wish to do so.

I take seriously your conclusions, and that's why I comment on them.
Saying that compatibility between the Bible and the Qur'an is "impossible" and that they are like "matter vs antimatter" are very strong claims, you know. It is like the incompatibility between good and evil, God and Beelzebub, light and darkness.
That's why I jump in immediately.

There is absolutely no need for any Administrator reporting on our part and I hope none on your part either.

I know, my friend.
I just used that rhetorical statement to underscore that, to say that Book A is to Book B like matter to antimatter, people who are influenced by Book A should live a life that is the opposite of people who are influenced by Book B.

Permit me to ask my question again. What is the Baha'i blueprint for harmonizing the Christian and Muslim faiths? More specifically, how does the Baha'i faith stand with respect to the Cross which is the centerpiece of the Christian faith and is totally denied by Muslims? Accepting the Cross must be in its entirety with all its implications and ramifications or else it's just a wishy washy solution that profits no one.

Baha'is do not believe that God needs a substitutionary blood atonement to forgive the sins of men.
The cross signifies the love and obedience of Jesus, who chose to keep on his work despite knowing it would bring him persecution and death.
His work consisted in showing us the way for forgiveness of our sins and reconciliation with God.
So, in that sense, his life and death redeemed us, because He taught us what our condition was and how God could forgive us.

 

[mikesw]

Hi mikesw

Let me emphasize a thing that I find of utmost importance.
We must make a difference between evil ideas and wrong ideas.
There are millions of wrong ideas in the minds of people. Nobody is free from error. Nobody.
However, only a tiny fraction of wrong ideas leads people to consider doing evil deeds.

If we learn that a lady helped the Nazis to persecute Jews because she was convinced that Jews were the enemies of society, she clearly held an evil idea. It didn't matter if such lady was Unitarian or Trinitarian, Catholic or Protestant. However right or wrong her ideas on Trinity, the Virgin Mary, Bible inerrancy or child baptism could be, those ideas had no bearing in her deeds. Nothing suggests that she would have done different if her theology would have been different.

I invite you to read in the New Testament why Jesus and the apostles were worried about false teachers.
I invite you to read how much time they invested in using a theological apologetics to refute them.
You will find that they were concerned about the moral example they had on the brethren.

You share examples of wrong ideas about scripture here with the improper characterizations of what Christ was doing. He came as the prophet like unto Moses. He came to warn the people of judgment they were facing. The Pharisees were doing evil works and place their system above the Messiah sent to them. Anything system that mischaracterizes God is evil. The proponents may not fit that category due to their sharing from their beliefs, so a distinction can be made in that sense.
You pretend that the message of Christ is reduced to human-interaction morality when Christ's primary message is knowing God and recognizing Christ as the only one through whom we come to God. Romans 5:10 shows that people can be designated as enemies of God before they are reconciled through Christ. It is a brief point but may give insight into the troubling state people can be found in.