The Bahá'í Faith: Teachings, History, and Practices

[Pancho Frijoles]

What I find notable about this thread is how members of BAM are able to engage each other in a civil conversation even though we have different beliefs. Good job

I followed this link Bahá’í Reference Library and it looked pretty official.

Hi Hosanna
Thanks for your remarks.
My Christian fellows in this thread are able to engage in a civil conversation because they have the love of Christ, and I feel privileged for that.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You mentioned "Manifestations of God". Let's look at the multiple times in the Old Testament where God manifested Himself (Theophanies) and how the Angel of the Lord is in fact the Pre-Incarnate Jesus Christ. Below is an excellent verse-by-verse presentation of what the Old Testament revealed about the multiple Theophanies of the Pre-Incarnate Jesus who referred to Himself multiple times as the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’

Good morning, synergy

Thanks for the video.
Mike Wingers is not understanding what is the role of the Angel of Yahweh.
Mike Wingers finds suspicious that the Angel of Yahweh speaks in first person as if he were Yahweh… when this is precisely his role!
The Angel of Yahweh is treated by humans as if it were God, because No person can see, hear or touch Yawheh, but through Yahweh’s Angel.

****

The apostles did not teach that Jesus was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but the Servant of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Let’s read in the Book of Acts:

“ Peter saw that a crowd had gathered, and he said:
Friends, why are you surprised at what has happened? Why are you staring at us? Do you think we have some power of our own?
The God that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and our other ancestors worshiped has brought honor to his Servant Jesus” (Acts 3:12, 13, CEV)

 

[synergy]

The harmony across religions in its essential message cannot and should not be glossed over, mikesw

If such harmony didn’t exist, you wouldn’t be able to build a school or a highway within time and budget with your Muslim and Mormon coworkers, as this requires sharing the same values of honesty, truthfulness and kindness. You woudln’t be able to enjoy yor work and learn from ecah other and become friends. You wouldn’t get prepared to build better schools and highways in the future.

You call to highlight the differences.
I call to highlight the similarites.

It's not no much that there is a "harmony across religions" as there is a dignity in all humans in spite of religions. That's called secular humanism. I'm not a fan of that ideology but its few good points are indisputable. It has allowed "Muslim and Mormon coworkers" to build our society. The US constitution is very secular in the sense that not one religion dominates the American landscape, thus allowing the US to be free of religious intolerances that plagued the Eurasian continents.

Thus religions cannot take credit for the US success that we see today.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

It's not no much that there is a "harmony across religions" as there is a dignity in all humans in spite of religions

Is the recognition of such shared dignity something true and good… or something false and evil?
If it is true and good, then it comes from God and it is religious.

The inabiliy to distinguish religion from secularism comes for the inability to distinguish faith from creed.. the inability to distinguish and God’s works from Beelzebub’s works.

For example: the fact that women can now vote and be voted as President… comes from God or from Beelzebub? Is it part of the promises of God about his Messianic Kingdom, or a part of Satan’s dominance as “Prince of this world”?

 

[synergy]

Good point, synergy

Indeed, beliefs cannot be unified. However, believers can be unified.
The Cause of Bahaullah focus on such unity.
Let me give you an example: you may have a family whose members hold different beliefs, and still grow as a loving family.
Baha’is were never encouraged to marry only other Baha’is. On the contrary, Interfaith marriages are very common on the basis of the shared values coming from God.

It is a contradiction to say that a tolerant humanity will despise a religious group.
Nobody will mind whether you think Christ is God or not. They will mind about having the “mind of Christ” or not.

I don't think a couple can be Trinitarian (Christian) and non-Trinitarian (Muslim, JW, Unitarian, etc...) in their practices, beliefs, and social interactions without severe cognitive dissonance.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I don't think a couple can be Trinitarian (Christian) and non-Trinitarian (Muslim, JW, Unitarian, etc...) in their practices, beliefs, and social interactions without cognitive dissonance.

What makes you think that? I’m intrigued.
My wife is an atheist. I guess this is a much, much, much bigger difference than what we could find between a Unitarian husband and a Trinitarian wife.

 

[synergy]

Is the recognition of such shared dignity something true and good… or something false and evil?
If it is true and good, then it comes from God and it is religious.

I'm not a fan of secular humanism but permit me to ask you a question about your statement. Which God are you talking about? Allah, the JW God, Jesus, the Mormon Gods, etc... Which God?

Could you show me a blue print as to how the Bahai faith intends to resolve that question?

 

[synergy]

What makes you think that? I’m intrigued.
My wife is an atheist. I guess this is a much, much, much bigger difference than what we could find between a Unitarian husband and a Trinitarian wife.

Let's say that I chant out loud the Muslim shahada in the middle of Christian Service? What if I break out into a prayer directly to Christ as God in the middle of a Mosque prayer session? How are those practices going to endear me to everyone around me, including my wife?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I'm not a fan of secular humanism but permit me to ask you a question about your statement. Which God are you talking about? Allah, the JW God, Jesus, the Mormon Gods, etc... Which God?

I’m referring to the God of Jesus, who He described as the One who had sent him… the Creator and Sustainer of our lives… the One refered to in the Shema, Israel.

God is One. Our discourses of God are not.
So, the idea of God held by the person sitting next to you at church (or at your dinner’s table) will not be identical to yours. That does not mean that your God and her God are not the same.

Could you show me a blue print as to how the Bahai faith intends to resolve that question?

Living up to Baha’u’llah’s call, to show the world, through the light of our deeds, that there is no question to resolve.
“He Who is the Daystar of Truth beareth Me witness! So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth” (Bahá’u’lláh)

 

[synergy]

Good morning, synergy

Thanks for the video.
Mike Wingers is not understanding what is the role of the Angel of Yahweh.
Mike Wingers finds suspicious that the Angel of Yahweh speaks in first person as if he were Yahweh… when this is precisely his role!

It is His role because He is God. He would be an imposter otherwise.

The Angel of Yahweh is treated by humans as if it were God, because No person can see, hear or touch Yawheh, but through Yahweh’s Angel.

No person can see, hear, or touch God the Father but through God the Son, Jesus Christ.

****

The apostles did not teach that Jesus was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but the Servant of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Let’s read in the Book of Acts:

“ Peter saw that a crowd had gathered, and he said:
Friends, why are you surprised at what has happened? Why are you staring at us? Do you think we have some power of our own?
The God that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and our other ancestors worshiped has brought honor to his Servant Jesus” (Acts 3:12, 13, CEV)

Jesus was given dozens of titles but each and every one of those titles does not nullify His explicit claim that He is the OT God "I Am" who existed before Abraham.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Let's say that I chant out loud the Muslim shahada in the middle of Christian Service? What if I break out into a prayer directly to Christ as God in the middle of a Mosque prayer session? How are those practices going to endear me to everyone around me, including my wife?

What would you think of a Pentecostal who breaks out “speaking in tongues” out loud in the middle of a calm Lutheran service?
Would that mean that the God of the Pentecostal is not the same God of the Lutheran, or that unity of Pentecostals and Lutherans is impossible?

My wife dislikes avocado, so I don’t put avocado to her sandwich.
I love avocado myself, so I put a lot of it in my own sandwich.
Then we sit and enjoy our meal together.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

It is His role because He is God. He would be an imposter otherwise.

No person can see, hear, or touch God the Father but through God the Son, Jesus Christ.

The Bible speaks about the Son of God, never about God the Son.
You are presenting a concept alien to Scriptures.
we can discuss that further in another thread.

Jesus was given dozens of titles but each and every one of those titles does not nullify His explicit claim that He is the OT God "I Am" who existed before Abraham.

It is not about titles but about identities.
Jesus cannot be the God of Abraham and the Servant of the God of Abraham at the same time.
Jesus never claim to serve Himself, but to serve his Father, his God.


In addition, your interpretation of John 8:24 is unsustainable, as I have shown and as several modern translations show.
“Ego eimi” has no correlation with “I am God” but strong correlation with “I am he who I’ve said I am”.
If you want to present arguments on the deity of Jesus, John 8:24 should not be one of them. We can discuss this further on another thread.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

It is His role because He is God. He would be an imposter otherwise.

Not an imposter. He would be a malak, a Messenger, an Ambassador, a Son, a Word.
The text says “malak” (messenger) for a vey good reason, don’t you think?

 

[synergy]

I’m referring to the God of Jesus, who He described as the One who had sent him… the Creator and Sustainer of our lives… the One refered to in the Shema, Israel.

That would be God the Father. You are discounting all the OT & NT evidence that Jesus is God.

God is One. Our discourses of God are not.
So, the idea of God held by the person sitting next to you at church (or at your dinner’s table) will not be identical to yours. That does not mean that your God and her God are not the same.

Even the discourses of the Quran and Bible are not one. If the Qur'an and Bible are not one then how will it ever be possible for those two religions to be one?

Living up to Baha’u’llah’s call, to show the world, through the light of our deeds, that there is no question to resolve.
“He Who is the Daystar of Truth beareth Me witness! So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth” (Bahá’u’llálláhI

That sounds very much like the Transfiguration of Christ. So the statement is referring to Christ who radiated His Divine Glory as God?

 

[synergy]

What would you think of a Pentecostal who breaks out “speaking in tongues” out loud in the middle of a calm Lutheran service?
Would that mean that the God of the Pentecostal is not the same God of the Lutheran, or that unity of Pentecostals and Lutherans is impossible?

Sorry. Questions are not answered by questions.

My wife dislikes avocado, so I don’t put avocado to her sandwich.
I love avocado myself, so I put a lot of it in my own sandwich.
Then we sit and enjoy our meal together.

What are you implying? That you're ok with removing the fact the Jesus is God for the sake of unity?

 

[synergy]

The Bible speaks about the Son of God, never about God the Son.
You are presenting a concept alien to Scriptures.
we can discuss that further in another thread.

If you don't like that title then I'll change it to "I Am". My observation still stands that He would be acting as an imposter if what you say is true.

Q is not about titles but about identities.
Jesus cannot be the God of Abraham and the Servant of the God of Abraham at the same time.
Jesus never claim to serve Himself, but to serve his Father, his God.

That's why God is three Persons.

In addition, your interpretation of John 8:24 is unsustainable, as I have shown and as several modern translations show.
“Ego eimi” has no correlation with “I am God” but strong correlation with “I am he who I’ve said I am”.
If you want to present arguments on the deity of Jesus, John 8:24 should not be one of them. We can discuss this further on another thread.

God clearly instructs Moses to say the following: you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you in Ex 3:14. That clearly establishes the direct correlation between Christ's claim to being "I Am" and the OT God who calls Himself "I Am".

Exo 3:14 And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And He said, So you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.

 

[synergy]

Not an imposter. He would be a malak, a Messenger, an Ambassador, a Son, a Word.
The text says “malak” (messenger) for a vey good reason, don’t you think?

OT Prophets would preface God's statements as "Thus says the Lord..." That clearly establishes who says what. In the case of the Burning Bush, no such preface was mentioned. So if what you say is true then we are talking about an imposter.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

That would be God the Father.

Yes, I am refering to the Father.
I noticed that you immediately recognized the Father as the God of Shema, Israel, YHWH, didn’t you?
You immediately recognized the Father as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, didn’t you?

You know that YHWH is the God of Abraham, who is in turn the Father of Jesus. That’s why you immediately answered “That would be God the Father”.
Your identification is correct, explicit. spontaneous, revealed by God. and in line with Peter’s identification of Jesus as the Son of Abraham.

*******

When in the same hospital hall a Jew mother, a Mormon mother, a Methodist mother and a Muslim mother pray to God for the healing of their respective daugthers with refractory leukemia, the One God is listening to all of them
When they pray repented for a sin they have comitted, the One and Only God forgives all of them.
When they interact in a Forum of Internet and share their experiences about how God gives consolation to mothers of children with terminal diseases, every time they write “God”, they understand Who they are talking about. They do not need to ask each other Which God are you talking about?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Even the discourses of the Quran and Bible are not one. If the Qur'an and Bible are not one then how will it ever be possible for those two religions to be one?

The discourse of the New Testament is not the same of that of the Old Testament. That’s why Jews differ from Christians.
Within the Old Testament, the discourse of pre-exile documents is not the same of that of post-exlie. That’s why Saducees differ from Pharisees, or Jehova Witness differs from other Christians on the state of the dead.
Yet, all these different discourses are One in essence.

We baha’is believe in the unity of religions in essence.

That sounds very much like the Transfiguration of Christ. So the statement is referring to Christ who radiated His Divine Glory as God?

Yes, pretty much like in the transfiguration.
Jesus is the Light of the World and you, my friend synergy, are the light of the world, so that others can see your good deeds and glorify the Father.
Therefore, the Father is glorified in you when you reflect the light of Christ, just as the Father was glorified in Christ when Christ Reflected his light.
Certainly this is all metaphorical language but I believe give us a pretty good idea of Bahá’u’lláh’s words.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Sorry. Questions are not answered by questions.

Ok, I’ll use positive statements.
A Pentecostal will refrain from speaking in tongues in the solemn meeting of Lutherans, and the Muslim would refrain from shouting out the shahada in the meeting of Christians.
Paul will not ask for the origin of the meat on the table if the host was of Greek origin, but would ask for it if the host was an observing Jew.

What are you implying? That you're ok with removing the fact the Jesus is God for the sake of unity?

I would not ask you to remove your belief about the deity of Jesus as a requisite for our unity.
I consider our unity far more important that any removal of a non essential doctrine.