The Bahá'í Faith: Teachings, History, and Practices

[Complete]

@Pancho Frijoles

​

Hello @Pancho Frijoles

I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is God's only Begotten Son:

Yes, metaphorically

and that the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ raised Him from the dead.

Yes, metaphorically

I believe also that there is salvation in no other,

Yes, considering that "in Christ" means "in The Word", "in The Gospel" he preached and lived.

for there is none other name, under heaven, given among men whereby we must be saved.

Yes, under the same assumption. That when the text refers to Christ, it means the Message or Gospel.

That the wages of sin is death,

Yes, metaphorically. We think it refers to spiritual death, separation from God

but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Yes, considering that "Jesus Christ our Lord" means his Gospel, The Word of God

Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Yes, metaphorically

Is this believed?

In Christ Jesus
risen and glorified
and sat at God's right hand.

Yes, metaphorically

Chris

Thanks for your questions, Chris.

'For the Father judgeth no man,
but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
That all men should honour the Son,
even as they honour the Father.
He that honoureth not the Son
honoureth not the Father which hath sent Him.'
(Joh 5:22-23)

* Thank you for answering my questions, @Pancho Frijoles.

In Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified
Saviour and Lord.

Chris

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

'For the Father judgeth no man,
but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
That all men should honour the Son,
even as they honour the Father.
He that honoureth not the Son
honoureth not the Father which hath sent Him.'
(Joh 5:22-23)

In Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified
Saviour and Lord.

Chris

I agree, Complete.
I try to honor Jesus Christ as I honor the Father.

 

[mikesw]

Have you wondered why was Jesus interested in being recognized as the Messiah?
Did such recognition have a sort of magical power to forgive sins and recompose the life of a person?
I don't think so, since the demons themselves are presented in the gospels as recognizing Jesus as the Messiah.

Then, why was Jesus interested in such recognition?
I'll tell you what I believe.
Jesus was interested in being recognized as the Annointed by God (the Messiah) in order to be followed.
If you recognize Jesus as coming from God and being anointed by God, you will practice what he asks you to practice.



The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise. (Psalm 51:17)



I know what you say and that is very sad.

But we are not talking here about people who do those things, crushed by their guilt or lack of faith.
We are talking here about people with a genuine repentance... whose lives are changed for good by the grace of God.

It is recognizable that you miss basic points about scripture since your interest is not in Christianity itself but in blending it with other religions.

Jesus actually rejected people from their attempts to make him king. Also, after his resurrection, he was was obviously made known as their Messiah, yet the Jewish response still was rather limited. So most Jews died in the sin having rejected the Messiah despite seeing all these events in their lifetime. Thus, we cannot conclude this was the great enticement that draw everyone to him.

The sacrifice to God was Christ Jesus dying on the cross. There is hardly some other sacrifice of anywhere near such significance as his Son on the cross. So a person hardly can please God without coming through the Son. Christ Jesus is the only one through whom eternal righteousness is obtained (Dan 9:24), so then even some random person's contrite repentance would not be to eternal benefit but only to his own satisfaction.

Certainly you can try to push for some ideas contrary to scripture, but I can only share what has been demonstrated and approved through Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Complete]

I agree, Complete.
I try to honor Jesus Christ as I honor the Father.

Hello @Pancho Frijoles,

How can it be honouring to God's only Begotton Son, to say that He holds that position only metaphorically?
Or to say that God raised Him from the dead - metaphorically?

I will not refer to your other responses.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Complete]

Subject Heading:- The Bahá'í Faith: Teachings, History, and Practices​

@civic
* If this is what is given voice to on the forum, this is where I say goodbye.

In Christ Jesus
My Saviour, Lord and Head
Complete in Christ

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Hello @Pancho Frijoles,

How can it be honouring to God's only Begotton Son, to say that He holds that position only metaphorically?
Or to say that God raised Him from the dead - metaphorically?

I will not refer to your other responses.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Sure, it is entirely possibly, my sister.
Honoring Jesus is not about the doctrines people hold about Him.
It is about doing what He told us to do.

So, if a Baha'i or a Jew does what Jesus asked us to do, that Baha'i or Jew is honoring Jesus. If he does not, then he is not honoring Jesus.
If you read the gospels, my sister, you will realize that Jesus was interested in us doing what he asked us to do, not about believing the meaning of "begotten son of God" or similar concepts.
The only credentials Jesus was interested in showing is that He had been sent by God, and spoke the words of God and did the works of God. Even those credentials were not the final objective of His ministry.

The gospels are plenty of examples. I can quote from them as much as needed.
Would you like us to go passage by passage? I will be very glad to do it, since it is my favorite topic.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Subject Heading:- The Bahá'í Faith: Teachings, History, and Practices​

@civic
* If this is what is given voice to on the forum, this is where I say goodbye.

In Christ Jesus
My Saviour, Lord and Head
Complete in Christ

You can say "good bye" to any thread or forum, but you can't say "good bye" to the world.
In this world, the voices of your dentist, the teachers of your kids, the neighbor who jogs and says "Hi" to you down the street every morning, your accountant, your lawyer, your cousins and brother in law, the tax driver, all of them have different views on religion and God.

More than 95% of God's children in this planet do NOT share neither your beliefs nor my beliefs, Complete.
We need them every single day, as they need us.
God acts through them, as God acts through you and me.
So we better hear each other and learn from each other.

 

[mikesw]

Subject Heading:- The Bahá'í Faith: Teachings, History, and Practices​

@civic
* If this is what is given voice to on the forum, this is where I say goodbye.

In Christ Jesus
My Saviour, Lord and Head
Complete in Christ

The forum is designated for apologetics and possibly aid Christians in honing their skills in sharing Christ. There is a bit of a drawback that those pushing unChristian beliefs might improve their arguments. If you still want to continue in more Christ-focused discussions, you can avoid this area that focuses on religious views. I'm having some trouble finding places to discuss more central Christian topics.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

It is recognizable that you miss basic points about scripture since your interest is not in Christianity itself but in blending it with other religions.

Jesus actually rejected people from their attempts to make him king. Also, after his resurrection, he was was obviously made known as their Messiah, yet the Jewish response still was rather limited. So most Jews died in the sin having rejected the Messiah despite seeing all these events in their lifetime. Thus, we cannot conclude this was the great enticement that draw everyone to him.

The sacrifice to God was Christ Jesus dying on the cross. There is hardly some other sacrifice of anywhere near such significance as his Son on the cross. So a person hardly can please God without coming through the Son. Christ Jesus is the only one through whom eternal righteousness is obtained (Dan 9:24), so then even some random person's contrite repentance would not be to eternal benefit but only to his own satisfaction.

Certainly you can try to push for some ideas contrary to scripture, but I can only share what has been demonstrated and approved through Christ Jesus our Lord.

Coming back to the example of the two husbands who had sex with a prostitute, one of them Christian and one of them Baha'i.
On what basis could someone think that God will forgive the Christian husband, but not the Baha'i husband?
On what basis could someone think that God will change the life of the Christian but not of the Baha'i?
In reality, you see God changing the life of all these people... or is it Beelzebub who heals them?
Can someone say that the peace the Christian husband gets from God's forgiveness is true, while the peace the Baha'i gets is fake?

 

[mikesw]

Coming back to the example of the two husbands who had sex with a prostitute, one of them Christian and one of them Baha'i.
On what basis could someone think that God will forgive the Christian husband, but not the Baha'i husband?
On what basis could someone think that God will change the life of the Christian but not of the Baha'i?
In reality, you see God changing the life of all these people... or is it Beelzebub who heals them?
Can someone say that the peace the Christian husband gets from God's forgiveness is true, while the peace the Baha'i gets is fake?



View attachment 775

God is more concerned about the truth of his identity being known. The only way people can have faith directed toward the Son and Father is if they have awareness of the truth revealed through the Son, Jesus Christ. If someone feels peaceful some other way, it can be like someone getting high on cocaine -- a moments pleasure for a life's worth of pain. People also do meditation and feel peaceful, but they can also draw forth demons into their life. It ain't worth it.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

God is more concerned about the truth of his identity being known. T

No.
God is not "more concerned" about that.
God is more concerned about the sinner abandoning his bad ways and turning to Him, and this is obvious in the Bible over, and over, and over, from Genesis to the Book of Revelation.
What you say has no Scriptural support at all.

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God, and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. (1 John 4:7)

he only way people can have faith directed toward the Son and Father is if they have awareness of the truth revealed through the Son, Jesus Christ. If someone feels peaceful some other way, it can be like someone getting high on cocaine -- a moments pleasure for a life's worth of pain.

Cocaine cannot transform lives and produce the fruits of the spirit.
That would be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

If you are trying to say that the non-Christians cannot get a true peace from God, you are in big trouble with your innermost sense of good and evil, taught to you by your parents during your childhood, and by the Holy Spirit when you are praying or about to sleep.
I don't think your pastors at church would endorse that.

People also do meditation and feel peaceful, but they can also draw forth demons into their life. It ain't worth it.

I can't speak for all of them.
But if the peace they get changes their ways, they have OBVIOUSLY not drawn forth demons into their life.

I encourage you to admit what is EVIDENT, both in the Bible and in your daily life: God is extending his grace to people from all religions, including those with a theology different than yours.

 

[mikesw]

No.
God is not more concerned about that.
God is more concerned about the sinner abandoning his bad ways and turning to Him.
What you say has no Scriptural support at all.

The Bible is filled with the emphasis first on following God. To deny that is ... well the nicer observation is to say that one is ignorant of scriptures.

Jews were exiled and lost many lives because they fell away from God which was reflected in their failure to follow the sabbaths. That was why the everlasting righteousness through Christ (Dan 2:24) is a central feature through Christ. Your ways only suggest patchy repentances that might make someone feel really righteous for the moment.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The Bible is filled with the emphasis first on following God. To deny that is ... well the nicer observation is to say that one is ignorant of scriptures.

I agree. Following God does not require understanding the identity of God, or embracing a given creed on the identity of God.
Following God is practicing righteousness and abandoning the old ways. This can be achieved only by his underserved grace.

Jews were exiled and lost many lives because they fell away from God which was reflected in their failure to follow the sabbaths. That was why the everlasting righteousness through Christ (Dan 2:24) is a central feature through Christ. Your ways only suggest patchy repentances that might make someone feel really righteous for the moment.

You're calling the repentances of non-Christian people "patchy" "random" and "for the moment". You are comparing them with "getting high with cocaine".
I beg you to reconsider. I don't think you are fully aware of what you are saying. Furthermore, I don't think you believe that in your heart of hearts. This would be not only a denial of daily reality, but a denial of the power of the Holy Spirit. I'd like to hear what our friends @civic and @synergy have to say about it. I would be very happy to see @Complete joining the discussion.

Then one possessed with a demon was brought to Him, blind and mute, and He healed him, so that the blind and mute man both spoke and saw. 23 All the people were amazed and said, “Is He not the Son of David?”​

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24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, “This Man does not cast out demons, except by Beelzebub the ruler of the demons.”​

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25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation. And every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. Then how will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore, they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.​

​

29 “Or else how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.​

​

30 “He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad. 31 Therefore I say to you, all kinds of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.​

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33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree corrupt and its fruit corrupt. For the tree is known by its fruit. 34 O generation of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things. And an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word that men speak, they will give an account on the Day of Judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned. (Mat 12:22-37)​

 

[mikesw]

I agree. Following God does not require understanding the identity of God, or embracing a given creed on the identity of God.
Following God is practicing righteousness and abandoning the old ways. This can be achieved only by his underserved grace.



You're calling the repentances of non-Christian people "patchy" "random" and "for the moment". You are comparing them with the effect of cocaine.
I beg you to reconsider. I don't think you are fully aware of what you are saying. Furthermore, I don't think you believe that in your heart of hearts. This would be not only a denial of daily reality, but a denial of the power of the Holy Spirit.

Then one possessed with a demon was brought to Him, blind and mute, and He healed him, so that the blind and mute man both spoke and saw. 23 All the people were amazed and said, “Is He not the Son of David?”​

​

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, “This Man does not cast out demons, except by Beelzebub the ruler of the demons.”​

​

25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation. And every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. Then how will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore, they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.​

​

29 “Or else how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.​

​

30 “He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad. 31 Therefore I say to you, all kinds of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.​

​

33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree corrupt and its fruit corrupt. For the tree is known by its fruit. 34 O generation of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things. And an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word that men speak, they will give an account on the Day of Judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned. (Mat 12:22-37)​

I call it patchy overall and seemingly helpful per their view. I would essentially say this of Christians in the sense that people at best only cover tiny bits of their sinfulness through repentance. We can even say there is a way that seems right but in the end it is death -- such that a person does not even recognize all of his sins.
Only in Christ are people forgiven all their sins, even if they were not aware that they sinned. It is not everyone automatically being forgiven. They have to have that relationship with God and be forgiven through Christ.
As to blasphemy, any claim of any other religion as representing a god not identified as (and described in the same way) as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob thus provides us with examples of blasphemy. But these will be forgiven if you come to Christ.
Like I share, you do not understand enough of scripture to use it properly in the arguments you make here.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

As to blasphemy, any claim of any other religion as representing a god not identified as (and described in the same way) as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob thus provides us with examples of blasphemy.

The example of blasphemy presented in Mathew 12:22-37 is very specific: it is about calling the works of God the works of Beelzebub.
We are not talking about other types of blasphemy.

If a Sikh who was a violent father has repented before God and has become meek and loving father, and an observer considers this to be the works of the devil or a short-term cocaine-like effect, that person is denying the Holy Spirit.
So be careful with your words, my brother. I know you don't really believe that in your heart of hearts, but think twice before writing.

But these will be forgiven if you come to Christ.
Like I share, you do not understand enough of scripture to use it properly in the arguments you make here.

If your conclusion of the scenario of the two husbands who sinned with a prostitute, is that the Christian husband's repentance and transformation is real, while the Baha'is husband repentance and transformation is fake, you are proving publicly that you need to reassess 3 things

• your understanding of the Scriptures
• your understanding of your own neighbors, colleagues, coworkers, relatives, etc. who profess other religions
• the basic notions of good and evil that your parents taught you when you were a little child

Think in the consequence of what you are saying: you are about to declare Jews, Muslims and Baha'is as deserving to be tortured forever because of their religious beliefs. Do you believe that, mikesw? I think you don't.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Only in Christ are people forgiven all their sins, even if they were not aware that they sinned.

Jesus on the cross interceded in favor of Roman soldiers, who believed in other gods .
Did these soldiers ask Jesus to intercede for them?
Were these soldiers followers of Jesus?
Why didn't Jesus await some months of years to see first if these people converted into Christianity so that He could ask God to forgive their sins?
Do you think that God listened to Jesus and forgave their sins, or did God put the Roman soldiers "on hold"?
Why did the inspired author of the gospel bother to record for us this episode?

 

[mikesw]

Jesus on the cross interceded in favor of Roman soldiers, who believed in other gods .
Did these soldiers ask Jesus to intercede for them?
Were these soldiers followers of Jesus?
Why didn't Jesus await some months of years to see first if these people converted into Christianity so that He could ask God to forgive their sins?
Do you think that God listened to Jesus and forgave their sins, or did God put the Roman soldiers "on hold"?
Why did the inspired author of the gospel bother to record for us this episode, without any mentioning that those soldiers ever converted?

Jesus can point out that the soldiers were being used as pawns. He can express that so people understand the situation, but people today may not be able to comprehend the evil action the soldiers were compelled into doing. You might have also noted that Jesus died that day on the cross. He could not hold on for months. As to their fate, we are not told what happened to anyone healed in the gospels. The gospels main point was the testimony of Christ's walk on earth before his resurrection.

 

[mikesw]

The example of blasphemy presented in Mathew 12:22-37 is very specific: it is about calling the works of God the works of Beelzebub.
We are not talking about other types of blasphemy.

If a Sikh who was a violent father has repented before God and has become meek and loving father, and an observer considers this to be the works of the devil or a short-term cocaine-like effect, that person is denying the Holy Spirit.
So be careful with your words, my brother. I know you don't really believe that in your heart of hearts, but think twice before writing.


If your conclusion of the scenario of the two husbands who sinned with a prostitute, is that the Christian husband's repentance and transformation is real, while the Baha'is husband repentance and transformation is fake, you are proving publicly that you need to reassess 3 things

• your understanding of the Scriptures
• your understanding of your own neighbors, colleagues, coworkers, relatives, etc. who profess other religions
• the basic notions of good and evil that your parents taught you when you were a little child

Think in the consequence of what you are saying: you are about to declare Jews, Muslims and Baha'is as deserving to be tortured forever because of their religious beliefs. Do you believe that, mikesw? I think you don't.

It makes sense that you forget the basics of scripture such at the 10 commandments. I was speaking more broadly of scripture rather than just the blasphemy of these Pharisees alone. They thought they were clever by speaking against Christ. Blaspheme is claiming that something is a god other than the one triune God, known also as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. This is essentially the definition in the Bible. You should have learned that in synagogue growing up.

Like mentioned before, people only would get a feeling of relief for their repentance of some sin they notice. They still have all their other sins. If they do not get the forgiveness through Christ's death and resurrection, they have a small bandage over a large gash. It does not reconcile them with God. You might have a valid point in the last sentence or two, but that does not make people justified to receive eternal life. Come to Christ Jesus while you have this opportunity.

 

[civic]

Subject Heading:- The Bahá'í Faith: Teachings, History, and Practices​

@civic
* If this is what is given voice to on the forum, this is where I say goodbye.

In Christ Jesus
My Saviour, Lord and Head
Complete in Christ

take a look here thanks

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/promoting-freedom-of-speech.46/

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Jesus can point out that the soldiers were being used as pawns.

That's correct.
Then, please consider the Baha'i husband who went to the prostitute and repented at least as one of those pawns.
If Jesus showed sympathy for those soldiers, please show some of that sympathy for the Baha'i husband who repented.

You might have also noted that Jesus died that day on the cross. He could not hold on for months.

I don't understand your reasoning. Don't you believe that Jesus has interceded for the sins of men also after his crucifixion? Why do you say he could not have held on for months?