Obadiah
Well-known member
I hear what you're saying, It's like What Jesus did on the cross was only for a few "The elect" And that's not what the Bible Teaches.
The 5 Points of Calvinism
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
civic
Well-known member
Do you sin daily ? Yes or no
charismaticlady
Active member
Why do you say sin is sin? Did you read 1 John 5:16-17?
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
So, yes, all unrighteousness is sin, but that is milk. It is best to learn the meat of the truth. So tell me in the Old Testament that judged and punished sin according to these two types, how does that help us in knowing the truth about sin?
Arial
Active member
Before you determine that you are giving me the meat of truth, poor me who only has milk, you should reexamine how you have interpreted that scripture. The Bible tells us all sin leads to death. So what do you say this scripture means? Simply quoting a scripture does not tell me what you think it is saying.
It wasn't the OT that established a legal penal system. It was the Old Covenant. With laws come penalties for breaking the law. Those in Christ are not in or under the old covenant but the new covenant that has no legal penal code of laws.
The passage in 1 John that you give is most likely referring to a stubborn refusal to accept the gospel (1:30). The endtime sin in following the teaching of the antichrist.
Arial
Active member
What does that have to do with my post?
civic
Well-known member
Everything
Arial
Active member
It is what the Bible teaches but you have to put the Bible together as a whole----like any other book---instead of taking a little from here and a little from there and using the isolated pieces to arrive at a doctrine and expecting it to be consistent with the Bible. ANd that is what every false teaching does, and why none of them can actually defend what they teach when they get pushed to where the rubber meets the road, with anything but the "proof text" approach. Repeating them over and over. The Bible is consistent with itself from the beginning to the end and everywhere in between.
Arial
Active member
I guess you will have to explain which is why I asked. Duh.
civic
Well-known member
It has to do with what I said that you challenged about the sin nature . Duh
charismaticlady
Active member
In the Old Testament there was a sacrifice for sins committed unintentionally. So they didn't have to die for those sins, they prepared a sacrifice for the whole crowd to cover all the unintentional sins they didn't know they committed, because God is HOLY. He hates sin, even little ones.
But He also gave them the Ten Commandments which are major moral sins (the last 6). There was no sacrifice that covered those who broke a commandment of God. They stoned them to death.
God does not change and He sees sin the same as in the Old Testament our schoolmaster. The unintentional sins we commit, usually a slight against one of the fruit of the Spirit are covered by the blood of Jesus. In 1 John 1:7 here is a guy walking in the Spirit, and the Spirit does not lead us into sin, but still the blood of Jesus was cleansing of some kind of sins that were being committed. So there WAS a sacrifice - Jesus. It wasn't against the Ten Commandments because we KNOW the Commandments and that would be a WILLFUL SIN. And I Christian that commits a willful sin, Paul asks, what sacrifice is there to cover it. Jesus died for our past sins, and what you don't know is that Jesus takes away all desire to sin out of our nature against the Ten Commandments. But we still have free will. Hebrews 10:26-31 shows a Christian that did commit one of these sins unto death. Calvinists teach it is covered. The Bible doesn't.
Arial
Active member
You said:
I responded:
You responded:
I asked:
You responded.
I didn't say anything about what you said about the sin nature. I challenged the claim you made about Calvinism. Did you take a special class on how to change the subject in forums when you are losing an argument and have supported your view with nothing but fallacies?
Johann
Well-known member
You want "meat?"
NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: 1 JOHN 5:16-17
16If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.
5:16 "If" This is a THIRD CLASS CONDITIONAL which means potential action. 1 John 5:16 emphasizes our need to pray for our fellow Christians (cf. Gal. 6:1; James 5:13-18) within some suggested limits (not for the sin unto death), which seems related to the false teachers (cf. 2 Peter 2).
"sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death" John has listed several categories of sin. Some relate to one's
fellowship with deity
fellowship with other believers
fellowship with the world
The ultimate sin is rejection of trust/belief/faith in Jesus Christ. This is the sin unto ultimate death! W. T. Conners in his Christian Doctrine, says:
"This does not mean, however, unbelief in the sense of a refusal to accept a doctrine or a dogma. It is unbelief in one's rejection of moral and spiritual light, particularly as that light is embodied in Jesus Christ. It is the rejection of God's final revelation of himself as made in Christ. When this rejection becomes definite and wilful, it becomes the sin unto death (1 John 5:13-17). It thus becomes moral suicide. It is putting out one's own spiritual eyes. It does not take place except in connection with a high degree of enlightenment. It is deliberate, wilful, malicious rejection of Christ as God's revelation, knowing that he is such a revelation. It is deliberately calling white black" (pp. 135-136).
SIN UNTO DEATH (1 John)
A. Hermeneutical considerations
1. proper identification must be related to the historical setting of 1 John
a. the presence of Gnostic false teachers in the churches (cf. 1 John 2:19,26; 3:7; 2 John 7;
(1) "Cerinthian." Gnostics taught that the man Jesus received the Christ spirit at his baptism and that the Christ spirit left before his death on the cross (cf. 1 John 5:6-8)
(2) "Docetic" Gnostics taught that Jesus was a divine spirit, not a true human being (cf. 1 John 1:1-3)
(3) Gnosticism revealed in the writings of the second century reflected two different views about the human body
(a) since salvation was a truth revealed to the mind, the human body was irrelevant to the spiritual realm. Therefore, whatever it desired it could have. These are often referred to as antinomian or libertine Gnostics.
(b) the other group concluded that since the body was inherently evil (i.e. Greek thought), any bodily desire should be shunned. These are called "Ascetic" Gnostics.
b. these false teachers had left the church (cf. 1 John 2:19), but their influence had not!
2. proper identification must be related to the literary context of the whole book
a. 1 John was written to combat false teaching and assure the true believers
b. these two purposes can be seen in the tests of true believers
(1) doctrinal
(a) Jesus was truly human (cf. 1 John 1:1-3; 4:14)
(b) Jesus was truly God (cf. 1 John 1:2; 5:20)
(c) humans are sinful and responsible to a holy God (cf. 1 John 1:6,10)
(d) humans are also forgiven and made right with God by
i. Jesus' death (cf. 1 John 1:7; 2:1-2; 3:16; 4:9-10,14; 5:6-8)
ii. faith in Jesus (cf. 1 John 1:9; 3:23; 4:15; 5:1,4-5,10-12,13)
(2) practical (positive)
(a) lifestyle obedience (cf. 1 John 2:3-5; 3:22,24; 5:2-3)
(b) lifestyle love (1 John 2:10; 3:11,14,18,23; 4:7,11-12,16-18,21)
(c) lifestyle Christlikeness (does not sin, cf. 1 John 1:7; 2:6,29; 3:6-9; 5:18)
(d) lifestyle victory over evil (cf. 1 John 2:13,14; 4:4; 5:4)
(e) His word abides in them (cf. 1 John 1:10; 2:14)
(f) they have the Spirit (cf. 1 Johh 3:24; 4:4-6,13)
(g) answered prayer (cf 1 John 5:14-15)
(3) practical (negative)
(a) lifestyle sin (cf. 1 John 3:8-10)
(b) lifestyle hate (cf. 1 John 2:9,11; 3:15; 4:20)
(c) lifestyle disobedience (cf. 1 John 2:4; 3:4)
(d) love the world (cf. 1 John 2:15-16)
(e) deny Christ (denies Father and Son, cf. 1 John 2:22-23; 4:2-3; 5:10-12)
3. proper identification must be linked to specific items in the relevant text (cf. 1 John 5:16-17)
a. Does the term "brother" of 1 John 5:16 relate to both those committing a sin not leading to death and to those committing a sin leading to death?
b. Were the offenders once members of the church (cf. 1 John 2:19)?
c. What is the textual significance of:
(1) no article with "sin"?
(2) the verb "sees" as a third class conditional with aorist active subjunctive?
d. how can the prayers of one Christian (cf. James 5:15-16) restore eternal life, zōē, to another without the sinner's personal repentance?
e. how does 1 John 5:17 relate to the types of sin (unto death, not unto death)?
B. Theological problems
1. Should an interpreter try to link this text with
a. the "unpardonable" sin of the Gospels
b. the "once out" sin of Hebrews 6 and 10
The context of I John does seem parallel to the unpardonable sin of the Pharisees in Jesus' day (cf. Matt. 12:22-37; Mark 3:22-29) as well as the unbelieving Jews of Hebrews 6 and 10. All three groups (Pharisees, unbelieving Jews, and Gnostic false teachers) heard the gospel clearly, but refused to trust Jesus Christ.
2. Should modern denominational questions be a theological grid to view this text?
Evangelicalism has overemphasized the beginning of the Christian experience and neglected the ongoing lifestyle evidences of true faith. Our modern theological questions would have shocked first century Christians. We want "certainty" based on selected biblical "proof-texts" and our own logical deductions or denominational biases.
Our theological questions, grids, and distinctives reflect our own insecurities. We want more information and clarification than the Bible provides, so our systematic theologies take some small chunks of Scripture and weave huge webs of logical, western, specific doctrines!
Jesus' words in Matthew 7 and Mark 7 were adequate for the early church! Jesus looks for disciples, not decisions, long-term lifestyle faith, not short-term emotional faith (cf. Matt. 13:10-23; 28:18-20; John 8:31-59). Christianity is not an isolated past act, but ongoing repentance, faith, obedience, and perseverance. Christianity is not a ticket to heaven, purchased in the past, nor a fire insurance policy taken out to protect one from a lifestyle of selfish, godless living!
3. Does the sin unto death refer to physical death or eternal death? John's use of zōē in this context implies the contrast refers to eternal death. Is it possible that God takes home (physical death) sinning children? The implication of this context is that (1) the prayers of fellow believers and (2) the personal repentance of the offender combine to restore the believers, but if they continue in a lifestyle that brings reproach on the believing community, then the result may be an "untimely" or early physical departure from this life (cf. When Critics Ask by Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe, p. 541)
Shalom
Johann
civic
Well-known member
The sin issue answers the question in a personal way to show the theology doesn’t line up with reality
charismaticlady
Active member
We are ALWAYS to pray for the unsaved, so that is not the sin unto death. And it doesn't have anything to do with end times but the here and now.
Arial
Active member
Old covenant legal penal system. It has passed away.
Old covenant legal penal system. But for your information everything God declares is a commandment of God. And the penalty for disobeying any of them is death. In Christ through faith and only in Christ through faith is the power of death defeated for those who are in Him. Remember? "The one who sins shall die."
ALL sins are forgiven in Christ. Anyone who lives a lifestyle of unrepentant sin shows they are not in Christ. The branch in the Vine bears the fruit of that Vine.
The reason I don't know that Jesus takes away all desire to sin out of our nature is because He doesn't. Not yet. Not while we are here.
And I dearly wish people would stop acting like they know what Calvinism teaches when it is obvious that they don't. Calvinism does not say that rejecting Christ is a sin that is covered, which is what Heb 10:26-31 is talking about.
There are people who are aware of the truth, who profess to be Christians, but who are not, and if they really believed the truth they would not go on sinning with no repentance, To do so is trampling underfoot the blood of Christ.
Johann
Well-known member
Already answered-and I sense the "tension" from some members.
J.
Arial
Active member
Oh well, I guess you know it all. But did I say anything about not praying for the unsaved. Read again and try to comprehend.
Arial
Active member
I guess that will work. Just say something impossible to decipher. Time for me to get off the forum. The anti-Calvinism is enough to set anyone on edge.
charismaticlady
Active member
This is your statement, but it was to me.
We still have that nature after we come to Christ and will as long as we live in this fallen world.
civic
Well-known member
Romans 6 How is that working out for you ?
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin;how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with himso that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sinonce for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
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