civic
Well-known member
Me too !
The 5 Points of Calvinism
- Thread starter civic
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atpollard
Well-known member
The Holy Spirit appeared personally at Pentecost … we have a triune Godhead, so it isn’t THAT different.
civic
Well-known member
Jesus appearing in person knocking him down on the ground and blinding him asking why are you persecuting me in not the same as what happened at Pentecost. What happened at Pentecost is the same thing that happens to every person who hears the gospel and repents of their sins- the Holt Spirit indwells them which is the new birth.
civic
Well-known member
These passages make it clear the atonement is not limited.
1 John 2:2-He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
John 1:7 He came as a witness to testify about the Light, so that through him everyone might believe.
John 1:9 The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world.
John 1:29- The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 3:16- For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life
John 3:17-18- For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Ephesians 3:8-9 Though I am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, (9) and to illuminate for everyone the stewardship of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
1Timothy 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be offered for everyone—
1Timothy 2:3-4 This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, (4) who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (6) who gave Himself as a ransom for all—the testimony that was given at just the right time.
1Timothy 4:10 To this end we labor and strive, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of everyone, and especially of those who believe.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.
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Arial
Active member
This is your way of addressing the explanations of TULIP that were given, point by point? To repost something you said in a different thread and was already addressed by me? Is it addressing the support those explanations gave and refuting those? Or is it simply restating your beliefs? Here is the fallacy in this portion.
Where in TULIP is the statement made that God does not love all men, but only those whom He has chosen to save? And where is it inferred that the non elect can in no way enter into the company of the elect as though God forbid them to do so?
Romans 8:29 Being conformed to the image of his Son is part and parcel of salvation and sanctification. Your focus on this rather that foreknew, predestined, and verse 30, called, justified, glorified, and called in verse 28, makes a redundancy of verse 29.
Eph 1:4,5 "Chose us" individual believers. "Before the foundation of the world" foreknew these individuals He chose. "Predestined" those individuals to be adopted. Believers are individuals who together make up the body, the church. In your view there is something very impersonal about God's relationship to the church. And you have Him choosing those who choose Him. The opposite of what Jesus says, and a God who is subject to man.
1 Peter 1:2 Right. The elect according to the foreknowledge of God are elected for the purpose of sanctification. That is the whole purpose of Jesus dying on the cross to purchase individuals for God's kingdom. To give imputed righteousness to them. They are individuals who make up the body.
Eph 2:7 This is the end of a very long sentence that begins in verse 4. But that aside "us" is each individual in the body. What is for the body must first be done in each individual otherwise there would be no body.
No one reading those verses cold, with no preconceived notions in place, would ever think they referred to anything but individual persons. In order to make them be speaking of the church in general not individuals one has to come to them and find a way to make them not be saying what they are saying.
civic
Well-known member
And the I in tulip is contrary to the teaching of the prophets, apostles and teaching of Jesus.
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Since all men are not saved and Gods grace goes out to all men, Gods grace can be resisted.
Acts 7:51
“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
God the Holy Spirit can be resisted.
Hebrews 10:29
How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Here we see the Spirit of grace resisted, insulted, rejected and trampled under.
Hebrews 6:4-8
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Here we have those receiving Gods grace sharing in the Holy Spirit of grace reject it. They have fallen away permanently from His grace and can no longer repent.
Psalm 78:17;40
But they continued to sin against Him, rebelling in the desert against the Most High. How often they disobeyed Him in the wilderness and grieved Him in the desert!
Here we see them in the wilderness rejecting Gods grace upon them and grieving God in the process.
Resistible Grace- God grace is not irresistible.
Acts 7:51
“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing!
Proverbs 1:24
Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,
Isaiah 65:12
I will destine you for the sword, and you will all kneel down to be slaughtered, because I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not listen; you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."
Isaiah 66:4
So I will choose their punishment and I will bring terror upon them, because I called and no one answered, I spoke and no one listened. But they did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."
Summary: 10 passages from both testaments refuting the doctrine called irresistible grace
1-Genesis 6:3: And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”
2-2 Chronicles 36:15-16: And the Lord God of their fathers sent warnings to them by His messengers, rising up early and sending them, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place. But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against His people, till there was no remedy.
3-Proverbs 29:1: He who is often rebuked, and hardens his neck, Will suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.
4-Isaiah 30:15 “For thus says the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel: ‘In returning and rest you shall be saved; In quiteness and confidence shall be your strength.’ But you would not.”
5-Isaiah 65:2“I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in a way that is not good, According to their own thoughts.”
6-Jeremiah 35:15 “I have also sent to you all My servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, ‘Turn now everyone from his evil way, amend your doings, and do not go after other gods to serve them; then you will dwell in the land which I have given to you and your fathers.’ But you have not inclined your ear, nor obeyed Me.”
7-Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.”
8-Acts 13:46: Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.”
9-Romans 10:21: But to Israel he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people.”
10- Matthew 23:37: Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I have wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.”
hope this helps !!!
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Since all men are not saved and Gods grace goes out to all men, Gods grace can be resisted.
Acts 7:51
“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!
God the Holy Spirit can be resisted.
Hebrews 10:29
How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Here we see the Spirit of grace resisted, insulted, rejected and trampled under.
Hebrews 6:4-8
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Here we have those receiving Gods grace sharing in the Holy Spirit of grace reject it. They have fallen away permanently from His grace and can no longer repent.
Psalm 78:17;40
But they continued to sin against Him, rebelling in the desert against the Most High. How often they disobeyed Him in the wilderness and grieved Him in the desert!
Here we see them in the wilderness rejecting Gods grace upon them and grieving God in the process.
Resistible Grace- God grace is not irresistible.
Acts 7:51
“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing!
Proverbs 1:24
Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,
Isaiah 65:12
I will destine you for the sword, and you will all kneel down to be slaughtered, because I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not listen; you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."
Isaiah 66:4
So I will choose their punishment and I will bring terror upon them, because I called and no one answered, I spoke and no one listened. But they did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."
Summary: 10 passages from both testaments refuting the doctrine called irresistible grace
1-Genesis 6:3: And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”
2-2 Chronicles 36:15-16: And the Lord God of their fathers sent warnings to them by His messengers, rising up early and sending them, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place. But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against His people, till there was no remedy.
3-Proverbs 29:1: He who is often rebuked, and hardens his neck, Will suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.
4-Isaiah 30:15 “For thus says the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel: ‘In returning and rest you shall be saved; In quiteness and confidence shall be your strength.’ But you would not.”
5-Isaiah 65:2“I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in a way that is not good, According to their own thoughts.”
6-Jeremiah 35:15 “I have also sent to you all My servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, ‘Turn now everyone from his evil way, amend your doings, and do not go after other gods to serve them; then you will dwell in the land which I have given to you and your fathers.’ But you have not inclined your ear, nor obeyed Me.”
7-Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.”
8-Acts 13:46: Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.”
9-Romans 10:21: But to Israel he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people.”
10- Matthew 23:37: Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I have wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.”
hope this helps !!!
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civic
Well-known member
Jesus in this 1 parable shows the contradictions with tulip.
Matthew 13
1The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
T- man can choose to hear, see and receive the gospel
U- all can choose to believe and receive as demonstrated in the parable of the 4 soils
L- all soils received the seed without exception
I- 3 soils resisted all but 1 soil remained faithful and did not resist
P- 3/4 soils ( minds/hearts )did not preserver in the faith
* And as we can see they all had life to begin with in each soil. Only something alive can be choked. You cannot choke the dead lol.
* And only something alive can be scorched by the Sun and withered.
* Only someone alive can receive the word in the heart and have it snatched away
* Only someone alive can receive the word with Joy and endure for a while
So much for the dead cannot see , hear or respond to the gospel and the doctrine of T. D.
hope this helps !!!
Matthew 13
1The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
T- man can choose to hear, see and receive the gospel
U- all can choose to believe and receive as demonstrated in the parable of the 4 soils
L- all soils received the seed without exception
I- 3 soils resisted all but 1 soil remained faithful and did not resist
P- 3/4 soils ( minds/hearts )did not preserver in the faith
* And as we can see they all had life to begin with in each soil. Only something alive can be choked. You cannot choke the dead lol.
* And only something alive can be scorched by the Sun and withered.
* Only someone alive can receive the word in the heart and have it snatched away
* Only someone alive can receive the word with Joy and endure for a while
So much for the dead cannot see , hear or respond to the gospel and the doctrine of T. D.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
I will quote @synergy
Excellent analysis!!
I was pondering for any possible connection between the Wedding Garment parable and this Sower parable. It could be that the Sower parable explains a lot of what transpires within the Wedding Garment parable. The 4 examples of soils could be a more focused description of what happened to all those who were called. The first soil could be somewhat related to those who killed the wedding messenger, driven by the evil one. The second or third soil could be the "friend" in the wedding garment parable who was called but for some reason never got or lost his garment. The 4th soil are all other called people who made their calling and election sure.
That can give the Sower parable the eschatological (elect) dimension that the Wedding Garment parable has.
It is God that does both the internal calling and the absolute choosing (election). Calling is not just an external announcement of the Gospel, it is predominantly the internal working of God. To say otherwise is to deny the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit.
Therefore, there are 4 major Calvinist pillars that fall with this parable:
Excellent analysis!!
I was pondering for any possible connection between the Wedding Garment parable and this Sower parable. It could be that the Sower parable explains a lot of what transpires within the Wedding Garment parable. The 4 examples of soils could be a more focused description of what happened to all those who were called. The first soil could be somewhat related to those who killed the wedding messenger, driven by the evil one. The second or third soil could be the "friend" in the wedding garment parable who was called but for some reason never got or lost his garment. The 4th soil are all other called people who made their calling and election sure.
That can give the Sower parable the eschatological (elect) dimension that the Wedding Garment parable has.
It is God that does both the internal calling and the absolute choosing (election). Calling is not just an external announcement of the Gospel, it is predominantly the internal working of God. To say otherwise is to deny the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit.
Therefore, there are 4 major Calvinist pillars that fall with this parable:
- Monergism (Total Depravity),
- Preservation of Saints (many called by God but few chosen by God),
- Irresistible Grace (many called by God but few chosen by God),
- and even Limited Atonement because as many as could possibly be found were invited.
Arial
Active member
Giving scriptures in a way that simply contradict other scriptures and in fact, visible reality, by giving a particular interpretation to them is not proper apologetics, no matter what a person believes.
A viable alternate interpretation if one believes in Definite Atonement is : Christ's sacrifice is sufficient not only for John and that community, but is valid everywhere for those who believe. It does not mean that the atonement was intended to pay for the sins of all people without exception, as obviously it did not. It is affirming that there is only one sacrifice available for any sinner---that of Christ. (John is addressing in this letter a false teaching that had come into the church.) This sacrifice is effectual for all who believe, and those who will believe are those chosen by God. (John 10:11; Eph 1:3-6)
Tulip does not change the meaning of "world" to arrive at this interpretation. Both in the Bible and in everyday language the term "world" is used as applying to different concepts, and the usage is determined by the content in which it appears. If "world" is used here to mean every individual then we have an atonement that is not only actually limited, but also a whole massive group of people is was ineffectual for, and for whom Jesus died in vain.
Does everyone believe? Might it be saying that there is no other way than believing and this light of believing is available to all rather than restricted to any group of people? That the universal relevance of the gospel is being stated? Wouldn't that be more likely considering the great volume of evidence in the Bible and in our world that not everyone does believe?
To be continued.
civic
Well-known member
No it is always faith that is the determining factor in salvation and the atonement. The two go hand in hand together.
John 3:16-18 in Jesus teaching makes that crystal clear.
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
And Faith always precedes life as calvinists/ reformers have it backwards.
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Notice what comes first
1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.
See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
Calvinism has it backwards with life,regeneration, the new birth preceding faith.
Jesus also taught that a persons faith comes before they are healed or saved. The saving/healing doesn't come before faith. Calvinism has it just the opposite.
Here is how some would rewrite Jesus words below and add to scripture things that were never said nor implied.
Parenthesis is Calvinism false assertion below that God gives faith. Jesus said it was THEIR faith that saved them.
Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."
Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"
Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."
Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.
Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.
Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.
Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."
Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."
Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.
John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.
1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life
hope this helps !!!
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Notice what comes first
1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.
See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
Calvinism has it backwards with life,regeneration, the new birth preceding faith.
Jesus also taught that a persons faith comes before they are healed or saved. The saving/healing doesn't come before faith. Calvinism has it just the opposite.
Here is how some would rewrite Jesus words below and add to scripture things that were never said nor implied.
Parenthesis is Calvinism false assertion below that God gives faith. Jesus said it was THEIR faith that saved them.
Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."
Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"
Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."
Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.
Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.
Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.
Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."
Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."
Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.
John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.
1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life
hope this helps !!!
Arial
Active member
John 1:9 What does it mean by give light to, and how does that apply to every man coming into the world in relation to definite atonement? In your view it means that everyman understands this light and some choose to reject it and others choose to believe it. But if we continue reading in verse 10, He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. So it cannot mean that for it says even though this Light was in the world, the world did not know Him. They didn't know who He was.
In verses 12-13 it tell us that world here does not mean every individual, and it tells us what makes the difference. But as many as received Him, o them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. It can't get much more clear than that. See what happens when one isolates scriptures to prove their point?
John 1:29 Since we all probably agree that whatever Jesus came to do He did, and that every individual in the world does not have his sins taken away, "world" here must not mean every individual in the world for all time as you use it to mean. What is the viable alternate interpretation? The world here designates humanity in its hostility to God. Not everyone without exception will be saved, the sacrifice of Jesus is the only atonement for human sin that God has provided. It's effectiveness is not limited by time or place.
John 3:16 Christ' saving work is not limited to one time, or place, or people.
John 3:17,18 The whole world will be saved will be saved through Him.The world (creation) as it stands now is already condemned---it is under a curse. (Gen 3) Those who believe in Him will not be condemned and those who do not believe in Him are already condemned. That would be everyone until and if they come to Christ so why does it say some already are condemned unless God has already determined who is not condemned? You place all the emphasis in this scripture on whoever as though that automatically means everyone who arrives at belief , does so through a free will choice when all it says that those who believe are not condemned and those who do not believe are condemned. Whoever does not mean all, and it is related to belief, not choice.
To be continued.
Arial
Active member
Eph 3:8-9 This, as it says, references the things of the gospel that were hidden in the covenant with Israel, but only shadowed and pointing to, having what was once a mystery revealed in Christ to all---Gentiles as well as Jews. Everyone does not mean each individual as most are not illuminated.
1 Tim 2:1 -4 You left out verse 2, the very verse that tell us what Paul is speaking of. for kings and all who are in authority. that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence." Therefore the "all" refers to all types of people no matter their position, or whether they are a believer or unbeliever, since God redeems from all walks of life and position and nation.
1 Tim 4:10 The word translated "especially" comes from a word that is in other of Paul's writings translated, "that is to say." Or it could also refer to His common grace, in which case by "all men" means all men, but that He focuses His redemptive grace on "those who believe."
2 Peter 3:9 Peter is dealing with the delay in Christ's return, so as to encourage the readers to persevere in the sufferings and persecutions they were undergoing. This delay is a sign of His forbearance and mercy towards, particularly of the believers who are in their midst. They were confused and mystified by false teachers. The repentance in view for which God delays judgment,is that of God's people, not the world at large. God is not willing that any of His elect should perish (John 6:39). In the context the "any" refers back to the "us" of 1:3. Peter is talking about the elect. God is not frustrated.
Titus 2:11 Obviously it does not save all men so it must mean something else other than the way in which you use it to prop up your belief. It must mean that the grace unto salvation through the gospel is not restricted to any particular group, nationality, age, station in life, nation, language etc.
Arial
Active member
It doesn't help at all. The sheer volume of scriptures makes no point at all and is a very rude way in which to address the issue. It forces me to address each individual scripture and show a legitimate alternate interpretation. Not only that everyone of them is a singular stand alone scripture, often only the beginning, middle, or end of a sentence, on which you have over layed your interpretation as the only one. I think I have shown enough for you to realize that there is not one "proof text" you offer that I cannot refute as to the way you interpret it, and that I will do so. And you won't be able to refute it with anything other than more "proof texts' along the same line, that are made to contradict what Tulip states.
I am bored to tears with this conversation and done with being asked to spend enormous amounts of my time and energy into doing something that will never cause you to think any way other than what you do. I don't care whether you believe the same things I do or not. It only becomes an exercise in being able to stand my ground in defending with the whole counsel of God what I do believe. I have, I do, I am able. And not with just Bible quotes out the ying yang, but with sound reasoning and rightly handling the word of God.
Arial
Active member
I have never said that faith was not the determining factor in salvation so why bring that up? And it is faith in the atonement not the atonement being a determining factor. After contradicting me rather than presenting something solid, you simply repeat a scripture as though I had never given an alternate way of interpreting it at all. Not asking you to believe it, but one would think you would be able to show me how I am wrong in some way besides simply quoting the scripture again.
Oh well. Too much to ask I guess.
Parker
Member
There is something special about the word, “whosoever.” Whosoever is a very inclusive word. Whosoever does mean anyone and everyone. When you put whosoever with the invitation to salvation for mankind, it means anyone and everyone is invited to be saved.
With that said it also makes it clear that if we see the word, whosoever, in the Bible written with the invitation to be saved that God is inviting anyone and everyone to trust Christ as Savior. This could not occur if the individuals are already predetermined to heaven or hell. Notice some of the passages in the Bible with the word, ‘whosoever’ in them. God invites all to be saved.
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. The Great Commission is Universal
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. The Great Commission is very plain. The gospel is to be preached to every creature. So, if all are already predestined for Hell of Heaven as the Calvinist teaches, why bother giving them the gospel.
civic
Well-known member
Yes it doesn’t mean any select group or chosen group or elect group it means whosoever without exception.
Arial
Active member
Whosoever is not written as an invitation to salvation. It is a statement of fact. Anyone (whosoever) who believes is saved.
civic
Well-known member
Correct no such distinction between the elect and non elect . That means whosoever doesn’t mean elect .
hope this helps !!!
Arial
Active member
You say there is no distinction between the elect and the non elect but you give nothing (and never have) that supports this belief. But as to the wording of your statement: elect and non elect is a distinction. So no doubt you mean there are no elect individuals. WHich would make everyone the non elect.
