The 5 Points of Calvinism

You say there is no distinction between the elect and the non elect but you give nothing (and never have) that supports this belief. But as to the wording of your statement: elect and non elect is a distinction. So no doubt you mean there are no elect individuals. WHich would make everyone the non elect.
Nope whosever means everyone without distinction or exception . Nice try though .
 
I realize you are sure about that but you are mistaken. Enough already.
No I’m not mistaken I’m just not reading my theology into the meaning of whosoever to mean something and someone it’s not. That’s the difference . I know how this works as I did what you are doing for over 40 years . :)
 
No I’m not mistaken I’m just not reading my theology into the meaning of whosoever to mean something and someone it’s not. That’s the difference . I know how this works as I did what you are doing for over 40 years . :)
You are doing exactly that. Forty years! Wow. And still can't understand it. You have no idea what I am doing so how can you say you have been doing the same thing for over forty years?! In about 2 shakes of a lamb's tail I will simply put you on ignore. So find your off button please.
 
You are doing exactly that. Forty years! Wow. And still can't understand it. You have no idea what I am doing so how can you say you have been doing the same thing for over forty years?! In about 2 shakes of a lamb's tail I will simply put you on ignore. So find your off button please.
I’m not the one changing the meaning of everyone , whosoever , all people , all the world to mean the elect. That’s what Calvinism does with their reformed doctrine of the election.

What does all the world, the whole world mean in 1 John ?

Who is all the world , the whole world ?

When scripture says the whole world lies in the power of the evil one who is the whole world ? Everyone , some , all unbelievers ?
 
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I’m not the one changing the meaning of everyone , whosoever , all people , all the world to mean the elect. That’s what Calvinism does with their reformed doctrine of the election. That’s your choice if what to ignore it but those are the simple facts .
:ROFLMAO: Calvinism does not change the meaning of those words and neither do I. Neither do you.

You are using them wrong within their context when you interpret the verses. So find a more valid argument. The content is obvious, especially when you consider the facts given in the Bible as a whole and the blatant reality seen in scripture and in our world. What you do is add words that are not there in order to change the concept. You shift what is written into your beliefs instead of arriving at your beliefs by simply reading what is written.
 
:ROFLMAO: Calvinism does not change the meaning of those words and neither do I. Neither do you.

You are using them wrong within their context when you interpret the verses. So find a more valid argument. The content is obvious, especially when you consider the facts given in the Bible as a whole and the blatant reality seen in scripture and in our world. What you do is add words that are not there in order to change the concept. You shift what is written into your beliefs instead of arriving at your beliefs by simply reading what is written.
The Golden Rule of Interpretation

“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),founder of The Biblical Research Society

Thayers

Cosmos: the inhabitants of the

5. world
: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536)); ἀρχαῖος κόσμος, of the antediluvians, 2 Peter 2:5; γέννασθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 16:21; ἔρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον (John 9:39) and εἰς τόν κόσμον τοῦτον, to make its appearance or come into existence among men, spoken of the light which in Christ shone upon men, John 1:9; John 3:19, cf. 12:46; of the Messiah, John 6:14; John 11:27; of Jesus as the Messiah, John 9:39; John 16:28; John 18:37; 1 Timothy 1:15; also ἐισέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, Hebrews 10:5; of false teachers, 2 John 1:7 (yet here L T Tr WH ἐξέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον; (so all texts in 1 John 4:1)); to invade, of evils coming into existence among men and beginning to exert their power: of sin and death, Romans 5:12 (of death, Wis. 2:24; Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 3, 4 [ET]; of idolatry, Wis. 14:14). ἀποστέλλειν τινα εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 3:17; John 10:36; John 17:18; 1 John 4:9; φῶς τοῦ κόσμου, Matthew 5:14; John 8:12; John 9:5; σωτήρ τοῦ κόσμου, John 4:42; 1 John 4:14 (σωτηρία τοῦ κόσμου Wis. 6:26 (25); ἐλπίς τοῦ κόσμου, Wis. 14:6; πρωτόπλαστος πατήρ τοῦ κόσμου, of Adam, Wis. 10:1); στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου (see στοιχεῖον, 3 and 4); ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, among men, John 16:33; John 17:13; Ephesians 2:12; ἐν κόσμῳ (see Winer's Grammar, 123 (117)), 1 Timothy 3:16; εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου, to dwell among men, John 1:10; John 9:5; John 17:11, 12 R G; 1 John 4:3; εἶναι ἐν κόσμῳ, to be present, Romans 5:13; ἐξελθεῖν, ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to withdraw from human society and seek an abode outside of it, 1 Corinthians 5:10; ἀναστρέφεσθαι ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, to behave oneself, 2 Corinthians 1:12; likewise εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου τούτῳ, 1 John 4:17.


6.
"the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ" (cf. Winer's Grammar, 26): John 7:7; John 14:27 (); ; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 Corinthians 6:2; 1 Corinthians 11:32; 2 Corinthians 7:10; James 1:27; 1 Peter 5:9; 2 Peter 1:4; 2 Peter 2:20; 1 John 3:1, 13; 1 John 4:5; 1 John 5:19; of the aggregate of ungodly and wicked men in O. T. times, Hebrews 11:38; in Noah's time, ibid. 7; with οὗτος added, Ephesians 2:2 (on which see αἰών, 3); εἶναι ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου and ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου (see εἰμί, V. 3rd.), John 8:23; John 15:19; John 17:14, 16; 1 John 4:5; λαλεῖν ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to speak in accordance with the world's character and mode of thinking, 1 John 4:5; ὁ ἄρχων τοῦ κόσμου τούτου, i. e. the devil, John 12:31; John 14:30; John 16:11; ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ he that is operative in the world (also of the devil), 1 John 4:4; τό πνεῦμα τοῦ κόσμου

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.
 
continued :

1 John 2:2-He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:15-17
-Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

1 John 4:3-6- but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

1 John 4:14- And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world

1 John 5:19
- We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Now its very clear from the Lexicon definition and in 1 John that the cosmos/world does not mean Gods elect (that is Calvinism) not what John means in his epistle. It clearly means everyone with no exceptions in this world, all of its inhabitants who make up the ungodly multitude. It is clearly all inclusive of everyone, all, the entire world that lies under the evil one in opposition to God from the context of 1 John.

We see above that the whole world lies under the evil one and its that same identical whole world in 1 John 2:2 that Jesus made PROPITIATION for which is clear from the CONTEXT in 1 John.

So if the above truth from 1 John 2:2 which is clear as to the biblical meaning is all inclusive not exclusive ( Gods elect Jew/Gentiles) which comes from ones dogma/doctrine ( calvinism) and not Scripture. The context here is in clear opposition to the teaching of Calvinsm in 1 John. World NEVER means Jew/Gentiles in the epistle but means all of the inhabitants of the world /cosmos who are ungodly , where the lust of the flesh, the pride of life and the lust of the eyes come from and the god of this world the evil one the spirit of antichrist , the spirit of falsehoods rules and reigns in all of those inhabitants in opposition to God.

Its that world whom Christ made propitiation.

hope this helps !!!
 
The Golden Rule of Interpretation

“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.”–Dr. David L. Cooper (1886-1965),founder of The Biblical Research Society

Thayers

Cosmos: the inhabitants of the

5. world
: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536)); ἀρχαῖος κόσμος, of the antediluvians, 2 Peter 2:5; γέννασθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 16:21; ἔρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον (John 9:39) and εἰς τόν κόσμον τοῦτον, to make its appearance or come into existence among men, spoken of the light which in Christ shone upon men, John 1:9; John 3:19, cf. 12:46; of the Messiah, John 6:14; John 11:27; of Jesus as the Messiah, John 9:39; John 16:28; John 18:37; 1 Timothy 1:15; also ἐισέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, Hebrews 10:5; of false teachers, 2 John 1:7 (yet here L T Tr WH ἐξέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον; (so all texts in 1 John 4:1)); to invade, of evils coming into existence among men and beginning to exert their power: of sin and death, Romans 5:12 (of death, Wis. 2:24; Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 3, 4 [ET]; of idolatry, Wis. 14:14). ἀποστέλλειν τινα εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 3:17; John 10:36; John 17:18; 1 John 4:9; φῶς τοῦ κόσμου, Matthew 5:14; John 8:12; John 9:5; σωτήρ τοῦ κόσμου, John 4:42; 1 John 4:14 (σωτηρία τοῦ κόσμου Wis. 6:26 (25); ἐλπίς τοῦ κόσμου, Wis. 14:6; πρωτόπλαστος πατήρ τοῦ κόσμου, of Adam, Wis. 10:1); στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου (see στοιχεῖον, 3 and 4); ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, among men, John 16:33; John 17:13; Ephesians 2:12; ἐν κόσμῳ (see Winer's Grammar, 123 (117)), 1 Timothy 3:16; εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου, to dwell among men, John 1:10; John 9:5; John 17:11, 12 R G; 1 John 4:3; εἶναι ἐν κόσμῳ, to be present, Romans 5:13; ἐξελθεῖν, ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to withdraw from human society and seek an abode outside of it, 1 Corinthians 5:10; ἀναστρέφεσθαι ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, to behave oneself, 2 Corinthians 1:12; likewise εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου τούτῳ, 1 John 4:17.


6. "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ" (cf. Winer's Grammar, 26): John 7:7; John 14:27 (); ; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 Corinthians 6:2; 1 Corinthians 11:32; 2 Corinthians 7:10; James 1:27; 1 Peter 5:9; 2 Peter 1:4; 2 Peter 2:20; 1 John 3:1, 13; 1 John 4:5; 1 John 5:19; of the aggregate of ungodly and wicked men in O. T. times, Hebrews 11:38; in Noah's time, ibid. 7; with οὗτος added, Ephesians 2:2 (on which see αἰών, 3); εἶναι ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου and ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου (see εἰμί, V. 3rd.), John 8:23; John 15:19; John 17:14, 16; 1 John 4:5; λαλεῖν ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to speak in accordance with the world's character and mode of thinking, 1 John 4:5; ὁ ἄρχων τοῦ κόσμου τούτου, i. e. the devil, John 12:31; John 14:30; John 16:11; ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ he that is operative in the world (also of the devil), 1 John 4:4; τό πνεῦμα τοῦ κόσμου

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.
?? Does this prove that world always means every individual as in Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world?
 
@civic

TULIP explained. I will do one letter at a time as each one will require a great deal of expounding on scripture, therefore time and intense focus on my part to do it justice. This is a strain on my need for movement :) plus I have a lot to do today.

As I go I will change the terms used in order to make an acronym, and in doing so, sacrificed accuracy, leaving much room for the misunderstandings that arise, to more accurate phrasing.

T-Total Depravity

The use of total attached to depravity conjures the idea that we are evil through and through and depraved as we possibly can be. Utter or radical corruption is closer to what is meant.

It simply means that our entire being, including our mind and will was affected by the fall. There is no island in us that was not affected. It changed our nature. It did not destroy our will, we still have it otherwise we would not function at all. It bent it towards sinful desires and became subject to them. As such we became enemies of God, creatures in rebellion to our King and Creator. He our enemy and subject to His judgements, the sentence of death pronounced on us as the sinners. And us as His enemies, bringing evil into the creation through our "hands" our actions and choices.

That this is so we see in Gen 3:16-19. Paul expounds on these very things in Romans 1:18-32, 2:1-12. Here we see the affect man's fall had on all men and on all of creation itself. And the unwillingness of mankind by his very nature, to come to God.

But of course along with God curse placed upon the earth and mankind in Gen we also see the promise. Gen 3:14-15. Redemption announced and the plan put into action. This is the love of God for man and for His creation. The curse is His justice. One does not cancel out the other.

That we are in bondage to sin, which always involves willful rebellion is unequivocally stated in Romans 6:5-6; Eph 2:1-3; Col 1:13; Is 53:4-6.

So the T of tulip is stating that mankind by his nature in Adam due to Adam's fall, is now at enmity with God in that it is bent towards sin, and there will always be times when he will choose sin over God, therefore He will not---because he cannot change his nature---choose God. He doesn't not choose God against his will but because that is his will.

@Arial

lets start a new thread.

But that has to do with coming TO Christ. What about after regeneration? Does T also refer to after, or just in coming to Christ?
 
But that has to do with coming TO Christ. What about after regeneration? Does T also refer to after, or just in coming to Christ?
In Calvinism the sin nature always exists in full force . And remember everything is preordained even one’s sin both before and after salvation .
 
In Calvinism the sin nature always exists in full force . And remember everything is preordained even one’s sin both before and after salvation .
I wanted to ask you something. Don't you believe C is more a cult than a sect. It couldn't be more antiChrist. It is like mocking what Jesus accomplished on the cross.
 
But that has to do with coming TO Christ. What about after regeneration? Does T also refer to after, or just in coming to Christ?
We come to Christ through the new birth. Born in Christ instead of born in Adam. We got our sin nature through Adam. We still have that nature after we come to Christ and will as long as we live in this fallen world. That means we will sometimes sin as we grow in our sanctification. But we are convicted of sin---we know it is sin and we hate it, whereas before we were indifferent to it at best. Some we loved. And as we are convicted we go to God and acknowledge that we have sinned against Him, ask for forgiveness, and ask to be sanctified in whatever area it is.

And God is faithful to forgive---for Jesus' sake, for He died on the cross, taking the penalty for sin in our place. Jesus paid that debt. In doing so, sin can no longer condemn us as to its penalty. It cannot separate us from the love of God or from Jesus.
 
We come to Christ through the new birth. Born in Christ instead of born in Adam. We got our sin nature through Adam. We still have that nature after we come to Christ and will as long as we live in this fallen world. That means we will sometimes sin as we grow in our sanctification. But we are convicted of sin---we know it is sin and we hate it, whereas before we were indifferent to it at best. Some we loved. And as we are convicted we go to God and acknowledge that we have sinned against Him, ask for forgiveness, and ask to be sanctified in whatever area it is.

And God is faithful to forgive---for Jesus' sake, for He died on the cross, taking the penalty for sin in our place. Jesus paid that debt. In doing so, sin can no longer condemn us as to its penalty. It cannot separate us from the love of God or from Jesus.
Ariel, there are two types of sin; lawlessness and immature fruit. Catholics call them mortal and venial sins. Mortal sins are sins unto death that are against the Ten Commandments, like murder and stealing. So are you talking about major sins like that, or the minor sins that 1 John 5:16-17 call sins not unto death.
 
Ariel, there are two types of sin; lawlessness and immature fruit. Catholics call them mortal and venial sins. Mortal sins are sins unto death that are against the Ten Commandments, like murder and stealing. So are you talking about major sins like that, or the minor sins that 1 John 5:16-17 call sins not unto death.
Sin is sin period. It is against the holiness of God who created us to bear His image and likeness. If you break one of the ten commandments you have broken the first and the one like unto it, love your neighbor as yourself. If we commit any sin we have broken one of the ten commandments, and we have broken the first commandment.
 
In Calvinism the sin nature always exists in full force . And remember everything is preordained even one’s sin both before and after salvation .
What a crock of untruth to teach someone! You know nothing of Calvinism even though you claim to have taught if for forty decades. Those poor misinformed people, led to believe and promote fallacies. And now you desire to lead others away from making an informed opinion on their own by teaching fallacies about the theology.

Shame, shame, shame. If one has to deceive to promote something, and to lead people away from something they personally dislike----well you be the judge of the wisdom in that.
 
@ charismaticlady What civic said about Calvinism in post #92 is untrue. My response to you is the correct view. And Calvinism in no way shape or form teaches that God preordains our sins!!
 
Thayers

Cosmos: the inhabitants of the
Amazing the same Thayer is writing this-

ἐκλογή, ἐκλογῆς, ἡ (ἐκλέγω), election, choice;

a. the act of picking out, choosing: σκεῦος ἐκλογῆς (the genitive of quality; cf. Winers Grammar, § 34, 3 b.; (Buttmann, 161 (140f))), equivalent to ἐκλεκτόν, namely, τοῦ Θεοῦ, Act_9:15; specifically used of that act of God’s free will by which before the foundation of the world he decreed his blessings to certain persons; — ἡ κατ’ ἐκλογήν προφεσις, the decree made from choice (A. V. the purpose according to election, cf. Winer’s Grammar, 193 (182)), Rom_9:11 (cf. Fritzsche at the passage, p. 298ff); — particularly that by which he determined to bless certain persons through Christ, Rom_11:28; κατ’ ἐκλογήν χάριτος, according to an election which is due to grace, or a gracious election, Rom_11:5; with the genitive of the person elected, 1Th_1:4; 2Pe_1:10.
b. the thing or person chosen: equivalent to ἐκλεκτοί, Rom_11:7. (Plato, Aristotle, Polybius, Diodorus, Josephus, Dionysius Halicarnassus, others.)

As far as I know he also denies the deity of Christ.

J.
 
I wanted to ask you something. Don't you believe C is more a cult than a sect. It couldn't be more antiChrist. It is like mocking what Jesus accomplished on the cross.
Do you know what you are saying about millions of God's people? Do you know what it means to fear God?

Calvinism is neither a cult or a sect. It is a theology!!
If you are going to say it is antihrist then you should answer the question: In what way is it antichrist? In what way is it like mocking what Jesus accomplished on the cross?

I will be waiting to see if you can answer those questions.
 
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