Arial
Active member
You misrepresented the theology civic when you said Calvinism teaches that God ordains our sins.
The 5 Points of Calvinism
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civic
Well-known member
No God ordains everything that comes to pass. God either ordains it all or He doesn't which is it ? Is God Sovereign and in control of everything or is He not ?
civic
Well-known member
R.C. Sproul: “The distortion of double predestination looks like this: There is a symmetry that exists between election and reprobation. God WORKS in the same way and same manner with respect to the elect and to the reprobate. That is to say, from all eternity God decreed some to election and by divine initiative works faith in their hearts and brings them actively to salvation. By the same token, from all eternity God decrees some to sin and damnation (destinare ad peccatum) and actively intervenes to work sin in their lives, bringing them to damnation by divine initiative. In the case of the elect, regeneration is the monergistic work of God. In the case of the reprobate, sin and degeneration are the monergistic work of God. Stated another way, we can establish a parallelism of foreordination and predestination by means of a positive symmetry. We can call this a positive-positive view of predestination. This is, God positively and actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to bring them to salvation. In the same way God positively and actively intervenes in the life of the reprobate to bring him to sin. This distortion of positive-positive predestination clearly makes God the author of sin who punishes a person for doing what God monergistically and irresistibly coerces man to do. Such a view is indeed a monstrous assault on the integrity of God. This is not the Reformed view of predestination, but a gross and inexcusable caricature of the doctrine. Such a view may be identified with what is often loosely described as hyper-Calvinism and involves a radical form of supralapsarianism. Such a view of predestination has been virtually universally and monolithically rejected by Reformed thinkers.” (Double Predestination, emphasis mine)
According to Sproul, it is undeniable that God is made the author of sin IF, from all eternity, He has decreed anyone to sin and damnation by efficaciously working sin in their lives. Such a thing, he calls a “monstrous assault on the integrity of God.” However, is that not exactly what John Calvin taught, then denied, then affirmed and then declared that curious men are not to peer into the secrets of God, just as we are not to curiously peer into the Sun itself? As Calvin speaks, what you will find is that God is made the author of sin, but is not to be held guilty of sin because He allegedly brings it about through secondary causes, while He Himself is the proximate cause and Determiner. But first, Calvin will explain the Providence of God from the Deterministic perspective, and then he will address his opponents, and finally he will condemn the curious who seek to examine him too fully.
John Calvin: “We also note that we should consider the creation of the world so that we may realize that everything is subject to God and ruled by his will and that when the world has done what it may, nothing happens other than what God decrees.” (Acts: Calvin, The Crossway Classic Commentaries, p.66, emphasis mine)
John Calvin: “First, the eternal predestination of God, by which before the fall of Adam He decreed what should take place concerning the whole human race and every individual, was fixed and determined.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.121, emphasis mine)
John Calvin: “God had no doubt decreed before the foundation of the world what He would do with every one of us and had assigned to everyone by His secret counsel his part in life.” (Calvin’s New Testament Commentaries: Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians, p.20, emphasis mine)
John Calvin: “…the reason why God elects some and rejects others is to be found in His purpose alone. … before men are born their lot is assigned to each of them by the secret will of God. … the salvation or the destruction of men depends on His free election.” (Calvin’s New Testament Commentaries: Romans and Thessalonians, p.203, emphasis mine)
John Calvin: “When he uses the term permission, he means that the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of everything, because nothing happens without his order of permission.” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 16, Sect. 8, emphasis mine)
John Calvin: “He has plenty of reasons for comfort as he realises that the devil and all the ungodly are reined in by God, so that they cannot conceive, plan or carry out any crime, unless God allows it, indeed commands it. They are not only in bondage to him, but are forced to serve him. It is the Lord’s prerogative to enable the enemy’s rage and to control it at will, and it is in his power to decide how far and how long it may last, so that wicked men cannot break free and do exactly what they want....” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch.17, Sect. 10, emphasis mine)
John Calvin: “But where it is a matter of men’s counsels, wills, endeavours, and exertions, there is greater difficulty in seeing how the providence of God rules here too, so that nothing happens but by His assent and that men can deliberately do nothing unless He inspire it.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, pp.171-172, emphasis mine)
John Calvin: “Indeed, the ungodly pride themselves on being competent to effect their wishes. But the facts show in the end that by them, unconsciously and unwillingly, what was divinely ordained is implemented.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.173, emphasis mine)
John Calvin: “Does God work in the hearts of men, directing their plans and moving their wills this way and that, so that they do nothing but what He has ordained?” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.174, emphasis mine)
John Calvin: “For the man who honestly and soberly reflects on these things, there can be no doubt that the will of God is the chief and principal cause of all things.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.177, emphasis mine)
John Calvin: “But of all the things which happen, the first cause is to be understood to be His will, because He so governs the natures created by Him, as to determine all the counsels and the actions of men to the end decreed by Him.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.178, emphasis mine)
According to Sproul, it is undeniable that God is made the author of sin IF, from all eternity, He has decreed anyone to sin and damnation by efficaciously working sin in their lives. Such a thing, he calls a “monstrous assault on the integrity of God.” However, is that not exactly what John Calvin taught, then denied, then affirmed and then declared that curious men are not to peer into the secrets of God, just as we are not to curiously peer into the Sun itself? As Calvin speaks, what you will find is that God is made the author of sin, but is not to be held guilty of sin because He allegedly brings it about through secondary causes, while He Himself is the proximate cause and Determiner. But first, Calvin will explain the Providence of God from the Deterministic perspective, and then he will address his opponents, and finally he will condemn the curious who seek to examine him too fully.
John Calvin: “We also note that we should consider the creation of the world so that we may realize that everything is subject to God and ruled by his will and that when the world has done what it may, nothing happens other than what God decrees.” (Acts: Calvin, The Crossway Classic Commentaries, p.66, emphasis mine)
John Calvin: “First, the eternal predestination of God, by which before the fall of Adam He decreed what should take place concerning the whole human race and every individual, was fixed and determined.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.121, emphasis mine)
John Calvin: “God had no doubt decreed before the foundation of the world what He would do with every one of us and had assigned to everyone by His secret counsel his part in life.” (Calvin’s New Testament Commentaries: Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians, p.20, emphasis mine)
John Calvin: “…the reason why God elects some and rejects others is to be found in His purpose alone. … before men are born their lot is assigned to each of them by the secret will of God. … the salvation or the destruction of men depends on His free election.” (Calvin’s New Testament Commentaries: Romans and Thessalonians, p.203, emphasis mine)
John Calvin: “When he uses the term permission, he means that the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of everything, because nothing happens without his order of permission.” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 16, Sect. 8, emphasis mine)
John Calvin: “He has plenty of reasons for comfort as he realises that the devil and all the ungodly are reined in by God, so that they cannot conceive, plan or carry out any crime, unless God allows it, indeed commands it. They are not only in bondage to him, but are forced to serve him. It is the Lord’s prerogative to enable the enemy’s rage and to control it at will, and it is in his power to decide how far and how long it may last, so that wicked men cannot break free and do exactly what they want....” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch.17, Sect. 10, emphasis mine)
John Calvin: “But where it is a matter of men’s counsels, wills, endeavours, and exertions, there is greater difficulty in seeing how the providence of God rules here too, so that nothing happens but by His assent and that men can deliberately do nothing unless He inspire it.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, pp.171-172, emphasis mine)
John Calvin: “Indeed, the ungodly pride themselves on being competent to effect their wishes. But the facts show in the end that by them, unconsciously and unwillingly, what was divinely ordained is implemented.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.173, emphasis mine)
John Calvin: “Does God work in the hearts of men, directing their plans and moving their wills this way and that, so that they do nothing but what He has ordained?” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.174, emphasis mine)
John Calvin: “For the man who honestly and soberly reflects on these things, there can be no doubt that the will of God is the chief and principal cause of all things.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.177, emphasis mine)
John Calvin: “But of all the things which happen, the first cause is to be understood to be His will, because He so governs the natures created by Him, as to determine all the counsels and the actions of men to the end decreed by Him.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.178, emphasis mine)
civic
Well-known member
Piper, “Has God predetermined every tiny detail in the universe, such as dust particles in the air and all of our besetting sins? Yes… Now the reason I believe that is because the Bible says, “The dice are thrown in the lap, and every decision is from the Lord” (Proverbs 16:33).”
Sproul, God wills all things that come to pass…God desired for man to fall into sin. I am not accusing God of sinning; I am suggesting that God created sin.”
James White, in a debate with Hank Hannegraaf and George Bryson, was asked, “When a child is raped, is God responsible and did He decree that rape?” To which Mr. White replied:
“Yes, because if not then it’s meaningless and purposeless and though God knew it was going to happen he created it without a purpose… and God is responsible for the creation of despair… If He didn‟t [decree child rape] then that rape is an element of meaningless evil that has no purpose.”
“Scripture…teaches God’s sovereignty (providence, decree, etc.) and man’s responsibility. We usually call this “biblical compatibilism,” which we might summarize by saying that human beings freely chose what God foreordains.
Sproul, God wills all things that come to pass…God desired for man to fall into sin. I am not accusing God of sinning; I am suggesting that God created sin.”
James White, in a debate with Hank Hannegraaf and George Bryson, was asked, “When a child is raped, is God responsible and did He decree that rape?” To which Mr. White replied:
“Yes, because if not then it’s meaningless and purposeless and though God knew it was going to happen he created it without a purpose… and God is responsible for the creation of despair… If He didn‟t [decree child rape] then that rape is an element of meaningless evil that has no purpose.”
“Scripture…teaches God’s sovereignty (providence, decree, etc.) and man’s responsibility. We usually call this “biblical compatibilism,” which we might summarize by saying that human beings freely chose what God foreordains.
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Arial
Active member
That was in a whole different conversation than the one civic and I are having. It was a response the first question you asked concerning the T in the OP. You asked if we are still radically affected by the fall after we come to Christ. As to salvation those who are in Christ are in a place of already, not yet. We are saved now from the power of sin and death over us as Jesus has defeated them. (Romans 8:2; 2 Cor 5:21; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Peter 1:18-19; Romans 5:10; Romans 8:1-2). And at our resurrection is when this corrupt puts on incorruption, and we no longer deal with our fallen nature or sin or the devil.
In the meantime, even though sin cannot condemn us we still wrestle with this sin nature---our fleshly desires. (Romans 7:14-25 which is followed by the "therefore" of Romans chapter 8.)
Arial
Active member
Who cares why you left Calvinism or if you did leave it? You can't defend your position against it by misrepresenting it. And you have yet to show that you did not misrepresent when you said it teaches that God ordains our sins. So why don't we settle that issue first.
civic
Well-known member
And I don't care why you left arminianism either.
I quoted Calvin and others who teach exactly what I said just like the WCF- its double talk
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Arial
Active member
It is just as easy to quote people completely out of the context from which you pull the quote as it is to do so with the Bible in order to prop up one's beliefs---and in this case, one's hatred. It is a very effective tool---one politicians use with great skill.
What would be much more meaningful would be to copy/paste the entire exposition from which those quotes came. In that way we might have both sides of the situation instead of only yours. And we might even discover that given what followed the quoted portions put it into its proper and intended light. Just as when you said:
You surely did not mean that those you quoted, and millions of your brethren in Christ including me, worship a different God, an evil false God, simply because they disagree with you?
In any case, I learned of the theology from those who are in it, but I do not parrot or automatically believe everything they say in the same way that they say it. And I would never say anything in the way it was said in those quotes for the very reason that they are then used. I say things the way in which I see them from the scriptures. The Calvinists and the Reformed for those who hate the theology are all lumped together, stereotyped, and categorized as all being exactly the same and as being exactly as whatever teacher, preacher, as said or written publically. Which is foolishness.
When you are debating with a C/R on a forum you should debate what they are saying not what someone else said. And that is never done. What they say about what they believe, and the support that they give is never examined or considered. Just what someone else said or wrote.
civic
Well-known member
What you are saying is not reformed or calvinism. Maybe you are actually an Arminian and not reformed or calvinist. Your beliefs line up better with Arminius.
Arial
Active member
As verbs the difference between decree and ordain
is that decree is to command by a decree while ordain is to prearrange unalterably.As a noun decree
is an edict or law.
Fool4Christ
Active member
It's pretty awesome observing people sharing their ideas about scripture. Keep up the Good Work. It's Living Word and we're called to share it as I'm sure you're well aware of.
civic
Well-known member
playing semantics the one who ordains, decrees, predestines things to occur in time is responsible for those things that occur, they are culpable. Any court of law makes the person who orchestrates the crime as the one who is guilty.
civic
Well-known member
And there is a great chasm between mans theology and scripture in many cases.
Arial
Active member
It is not playing semantics when one uses the historical definitions used historically in defining a theology! It is being accurate. Admittedly it is lost discipline, especially within the church, the result of which is all these precarious divisions. Even though in today's world people are remarkably dumbed down and so think that ordain, decree, and predestine are always synonyms, and that they mean whatever an individual determines that they mean, rather than what the person using them means, that changes nothing. It just requires that the person speaking sidetrack into an education that has been denied even seminary students. Which I suspect everyone of those you quoted in order to promote hate did. I can practically guarantee Sproul did because he always does.
civic
Well-known member
No you are using the Calvinist definitions not the historical and orthodox definitions and positions held by the church throughout history .
Arial
Active member
Do we know why God decreed what happens? No. For all we know this entire creation and its fall and redemption, are the result of a conversation and agreement on the order of what we are shown in Job, between the serpent and God. We do know that before the creation of our world, satan was cast out of heaven. Where was he cast to? Possibly the earth in it condition of darkness and void. We know from scripture why the devil was cast out in the first place. For saying he would be as God, exalting himself as an equal if not superior. It is safe to assume from his actions in the Garden (where he already was when God created our world and us)and throughout all of scripture that the devil is desperately trying to own earth and its inhabitants, unceasingly trying to destroy the One who would come to redeem creation and its inhabitants. We have God's curse on the serpent in Eden and God's promise that He would take back this creation from Him and through the redemption of a people for Himself.
My point is, mankind is always trying to define God, His sovereignty, His ordaining and decreeing; always trying to ascertain why God does what He does, defining this and that, when we know nothing of what we cannot see and cannot know. So we come up with all these differing beliefs and doctrines, some we hate and some we like. We hate and devour one another in the process, all while we sit in ignorance and arrogance.
When what we ought to be doing is living by faith, believing that God is of necessity sovereign over all He creates. That He rules and governs it. In this the Bible is clear. And that even in the presence of evil and our sins, He remains faithful, both to us and creation, to accomplish what He promises and sets out to do. And that even in His anger and wrath against all evil, He remains good and perfect and holy.
We should just let God be God and trust Him, instead of telling Him through our beliefs who He should and shouldn't be. What He can or cannot do or will not do. We should keep our place as creatures made by Him, seek His face, thirst after righteousness, worship Him.
Arial
Active member
Oh for Pete's sake. Is Calvin a figure in history? He probably used words as they were being used in his time. The historic, orthodox definitions have not been consistent throughout history. For nearly a thousand years up until the Reformation began, the church was under the control of the papacy, and consisted of no Bible preaching or teaching but was nothing but papal decrees and the mass.
charismaticlady
Active member
Just trying to help let civic know where he heard you.
Parker
Member
I care
