charismaticlady
Active member
You didn't, but the Scripture did. So if you are going to interpret a scripture don't contradict it.
The 5 Points of Calvinism
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
Can you verify this statement with Scripture references-many here are merely pontificating with ad hominin's and philosophizing-rarely with any Scriptures.
J.
charismaticlady
Active member
Not necessarily. A born again Christian can get unequally yoked with a bunch of unbelievers and quench the Spirit and act out. And then go to church on Sunday and ask forgiveness for the fornication they committed Saturday night? Willful sins are not covered by the blood of Jesus, if they know it to be wrong but do it anyway.
-on the flip side-many born again Christians also commit fornication-and go to an ekklesia to appease a quilty conscience.
Right?
J.
charismaticlady
Active member
charismaticlady
Active member
Not if the Author of our faith has written that law on our conscience. Then it would be a "willful" sin unto death, not unintentional.
Romans 1:16-17, Hebrews 12:2
Fool4Christ
Active member
How could you possibly know that. First of all you can't really tell if someone's is born again Christian. Being born again is a lot more than taking a walk down the aisle And saying a prayer. Then you have what sins they commit in private or in their mind. That part about looking at someone with lust you might as well have committed the deed as you just as guilty.
And then how would you know they had a guilty conscience. I've known so-called Born Again Christians that can cite the Bible to you back and forth. And yet we're living in adultery with their unmarried partner and had been for years. I actually heard their excuse, And it was they've been married before and it didn't work out so God understands why they can live in adultery now. But they definitely didn't have a guilty conscience. They just had an excuse for committing adultery.
I'm not trying to give you a hard time but that flip side as you call it is actually between them and God. We really can't judge another man's servant.
There is even a warning about it.... not to judge least you be judged with the same judgment.
I understand in the church there is that thing called accountability. And that there is a process involved to call attention in these kind of situations. I think Civic need a post about it, about the one or two witnesses? Taking them to the church leaders.
Anyway it's good to see your posting here, You're in England right? I've seen you on some other forums.
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-on the flip side-many born again Christians also commit fornication-and go to an ekklesia to appease a quilty conscience.
Right?
J.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
J.
I'm talking about pseudo -"Christians"
A Christian can be defined as a person who has, by faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior from sin (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8–9). And in the heart of the Christian resides the Spirit of Christ (Ephesians 3:17; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Romans 8:11). Now, “if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ” (Romans 8:9), and this person, then, is not a Christian. Thus, the term “fake Christian” is a misnomer. You are a Christian or you are not a Christian; one is either with God or against God (Matthew 12:30).
That being said, this question is certainly a legitimate one in the minds of many people. And this is likely due to the behavior of some Christians; however, it is also likely because of the behavior of many who think they are Christians or profess to be Christians, but who are not. The reasons many believe they are true Christians when they are not are many and varied. False teaching is certainly one reason. When churches eschew teaching sound doctrine, the end result will be congregants who do not know the truth of God’s Word. How can they keep in step with the Spirit, when the Truth is not in them?
Also, some believe their recitation of a prayer or responding to an “altar call” alone may have turned them into a Christian. Many believe their religious traditions, such as being baptized as an infant, secured a spot in heaven for them, or that their plentiful good works alone have put them in good standing with God. And, of course, some believe church attendance alone guarantees salvation. The point is that many who profess to be Christians are not Christians at all. Yet they complacently remain convinced that all is well with their soul. Sadly, many will live their entire lives believing they were Christians only to one day hear these words from Jesus Christ: “I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!” (Matthew 7:23).
The clear teaching of the Bible is that when someone is saved his life will most definitely change as he is a “new creation, the old has gone and the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). A true, born-again Christian will strive to bring glory and honor to Christ by living a life that is pleasing to God (1 Peter 1:15–16; 4:1–4). True saving faith will indeed produce works or “fruit” in the life of the believer (James 2:17, 26).
Thus, if there are no works of love in one’s life, a careful self-examination is certainly called for. The apostle Paul instructed those in Corinth to do this very thing: “Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you – unless, of course, you fail the test?” (2 Corinthians 13:5). Indeed, any profession of faith that does not result in a changed life and good works is a false profession, and the professor is not a Christian.
Now, even though the lifestyle of true Christians does reflect the presence of Christ in their hearts, we know we are not perfect. Christians do sin, and the apostle John makes it clear that we deceive ourselves if we think otherwise (1 John 1:8). And when Christians do sin, there are those eager to use their “slip-up” to further denigrate the true body of believers. That is why Paul admonished the church in Thessalonica to abstain from even the appearance of evil (1 Thessalonians 5:22) and to live in such a way as to “win the respect of outsiders” (1 Thessalonians 4:12).
What Christians will not do, however, is engage in repeated or habitual sin (1 John 3:6). One who engages in deliberate and habitual sin is simply proving that he does not know Christ and therefore cannot be abiding in Him even though he may live his life under the vast umbrella of religion and is thought, therefore, by many to be a Christian.
As believers mature in their faith, they will exhibit more and more evidence of their true Christian nature, such as their love for God, repentance from sin, separation from the world, spiritual growth, and obedient living. As Paul told the Romans, the genuine child of God has been set free from sin and has become a slave to God, and the result is eternal life (Romans 6:22).
2 Timothy 3 BSB
biblehub.com
Who is saying anything re judging others? Don't we have the excousia to judge those within the household of faith?
How about we dokimazo the spirits?
1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1) "Beloved, believe not every spirit " (Greek agapetoi) "beloved ones", an affectionate address to all ages of believers. (pisteuete) trust ye-(me) not. (Greek panti pneumati) (just) any or every spirit. John warns that some spirits should not (must not) be trusted. There are "seducing spirits", 1Ti_4:1.
2) "But try the spirits" (Alla) but, strong contrast - (Greek dokimozete) "test ye or prove ye," the spirits. Put the spirits on trial, on examination; Do they speak and cause men to act according to the revealed Word of God? If not they are to be rejected as emissaries, servants, agents of Satan. 1Ti_4:1-3; 2Ti_4:3-4; 2Co_11:13-15.
3) "Whether they are of God": Fallen, deranged, demon spirits - enemies of God, work through men - depraved men, to oppose God and Holiness. Note the maniac of Gadara, Mar_5:1-20; Mar_7:24-30, and deceptive miracle workers. Rev_16:13-14.
4) "Because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1) Our Lord warned of "false" or lying prophets. Mat_7:15-23; Matthew 2) Paul did, 2Co_11:13-15; Act_20:27-31; Acts 3) Peter did, 2Pe_2:1-3; 2Pe_3:1-7. These false prophets have (Greek ekseleluthasin) "Gone out of their own accord -, or will". They were not (Greek stello) sent or authorized of the Lord.
J.
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You believe in sinless perfection? That the sin nature is somehow "surgically removed" from the believer in Christ?
J.
Maybe this will help-
SHOULD CHRISTIANS JUDGE ONE ANOTHER?
A. In 1 Corinthians 5:12 Paul and the church must deal with members (v. 12 expects a "yes" answer), but believers must allow God to deal with non-members. Believers must not judge one another (cf. Matt. 7:1-5,15-20; Rom. 14:1-15:13), but
1. we must examine each other's fruits for leadership positions (cf. 1 Cor. 6:1-3; Matthew 7)
2. we must exercise church discipline when the reputation of the church is at risk
This is often a fine line! By implication Paul is asserting that the sinning man of 1 Corinthians 5 must be placed in the realm of God's judgment (i.e., outside the church).
One wonders how this context relates to modern societies where believers and non-believers have an opportunity by voting to regulate social norms. Should believers vigorously participate in the political process? This context is limited to judgment relating to church discipline and not western, modern democracy. Believers are citizens of two realms with obligations and privileges in both! God's Spirit, God's will, and God's Book help us as believers find our way in this fallen world, but unbelievers are exploited and manipulated by sin, self, and Satan. They need our witness and compassion, not our judgmental self-righteousness. They are not capable of understanding our motives, purposes, and actions.
The problem of when and how Christians should "judge" each other caused several Greek manuscripts to alter this text.
1. The very early papyrus manuscript P46 (about a.d. 200) as well as the Bahairic Coptic translation (3rd century) and Peshitta Syriac translation (5th century) just omit the negative and translate the sentence as an imperative, "Judge ye those who are inside [the church]" (cf. Bruce M. Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, p. 551).
2. The Sahidic Coptic translation (3rd century) puts the negative with the preceding sentence, "For what have I to do with judging those who are outside and not those who are inside? Judge those who are inside" (Metzger, p. 51).
3. The UBS4 text does not even acknowledge the possibility of these variants as original.
B. This issue must be dealt with in two ways.
1. believers are admonished not to judge one another (cf. Matt. 7:1-5; Luke 6:37,42; Rom. 2:1-11; James 4:11-12)
2. believers are admonished to evaluate leaders (cf. Matt. 7:6,15-16; 1 Cor. 14:29; 1 Thess. 5:21; 1 Tim. 3:1-13; and 1 John 4:1-6)
Some criteria for proper evaluation may be helpful.
1. evaluation should be for the purpose of affirmation (cf. 1 John 4:1 – "test" with a view toward approval)
2. evaluation should be done in humility and gentleness (cf. Gal. 6:1)
3. evaluation must not focus on personal preference issues (cf. Rom. 14:1-23; 1 Cor. 8:1-13; 10:23-33)
4. evaluation should identify those leaders who have "no handle for criticism" from within the church or the community (cf. 1 Timothy 3).
Yes?
Shalom
J.
Arial
Active member
All sin is willful. The devil does not make us do it.
Arial
Active member
Don't misinterpret what I say and then say that is what I said.
Arial
Active member
??
Fool4Christ
Active member
Yes it does help and confirms my thoughts on the topic.
civic
Well-known member
Paul in 1 Cor 5 is putting into Practice Jesus teaching on the 2/3 witnesses with a sinner brother from Matthew 18.
1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
1) “For what have I to do.” (ti gar moi) “for what (is it) to me?” What business of mine is it?
2) “To judge them also that are without?” (Greek tous ekso krinen) “to judge the ones without” - the ones without the church fellowship. A church cannot regulate the moral and social conduct, or even restrict the conduct, the manner of life of any, except her own members.
3) “Do not ye judge them that are within.” (ouchi tous eso humeis krinete
“Do ye not judge the ones within?” meaning within their own company, assembly, or fellowship?For what have I to do? (ti gar moi̱). “For what is it to me (dative) to judge those without (tous exo)?” They are outside the church and not within Paul’s jurisdiction. God passes judgment on them.
Just to "flesh it out a bit more" while concurring with your statement @civic
J.
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civic
Well-known member
Yes God judges the world not believers and believers are to keep their own house in order- a little leaven leavens the whole lump.1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
1) “For what have I to do.” (ti gar moi) “for what (is it) to me?” What business of mine is it?
2) “To judge them also that are without?” (Greek tous ekso krinen) “to judge the ones without” - the ones without the church fellowship. A church cannot regulate the moral and social conduct, or even restrict the conduct, the manner of life of any, except her own members.
3) “Do not ye judge them that are within.” (ouchi tous eso humeis krinete
For what have I to do? (ti gar moi̱). “For what is it to me (dative) to judge those without (tous exo)?” They are outside the church and not within Paul’s jurisdiction. God passes judgment on them.
Just to "flesh it out a bit more" while concurring with your statement @civic
J.
I had to do this with my own sister 30 years ago and apply the Matthew 18 to disassociate myself,wife, children from her and her children until she repented and turned away from that adulterous affair. It literally broke my heart to do this and lots of tears were shed but I was convicted by the Lord to confront her and she knew I was doing this out of love for her, her family and the Lord.
It was the hardest thing I have ever done with another person I was so close with in my life. But within a few weeks she repented and left that relationship she had with another man. And we were restored as a family and in Gods family.
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civic
Well-known member
I have answered the sin issue we were discussing with Scripture. That should settle it.
It doesn't matter what you or I think it matters what Paul said in Romans 6 which I quoted.
I don't let my theology/experience supersede scripture and take precedence over what it teaches. I let my experience/theology be in subjection to scripture.
Reading ones theology/experience into scripture is called eisegesis, not exegesis.
hope this helps !!!
