Taking credit for your salvation

In our mens discipleship group on Thursday mornings at church ( 20-30 men ) we have a few calvinists and in our saturday morning small mens discipleship 2/5 are calvinists. So I get to challenge them openly when certain topics are brother up or certain passages are quoted implying predestination, election, sovereignty, TD, UE or I. :)

It is nice when this can happen.
 
In our mens discipleship group on Thursday mornings at church ( 20-30 men ) we have a few calvinists and in our saturday morning small mens discipleship 2/5 are calvinists. So I get to challenge them openly when certain topics are brought up or certain passages are quoted implying predestination, election, sovereignty, TD, UE or I. :)
Just learned something from Corrie-my mentor-we should walk and talk our age.
 
1. Did Paul say that in his flesh dwelled no good thing?
Wrong question! The right question is in what context did Paul say that no good was in his flesh?

1) Paul is talking about an unconverted state, not a converted believer; and most certainly not of himself at the point of his writing those words.

2) “Flesh” is not taking about his physical nature, but the sinful nature. There is nothing good to be found in the sinful nature. Which is to state the obvious!

3) “Good” refers to godliness of character and disposition, which, again, means the sinful nature is not of godly character or disposition.

Romans 7:14-ff is not referring to a saved individual, but rather an unsaved person who was relying upon keeping the law to give him life.


Doug
 
Wrong question! The right question is in what context did Paul say that no good was in his flesh?

1) Paul is talking about an unconverted state, not a converted believer; and most certainly not of himself at the point of his writing those words.

2) “Flesh” is not taking about his physical nature, but the sinful nature. There is nothing good to be found in the sinful nature. Which is to state the obvious!

3) “Good” refers to godliness of character and disposition, which, again, means the sinful nature is not of godly character or disposition.

Romans 7:14-ff is not referring to a saved individual, but rather an unsaved person who was relying upon keeping the law to give him life.


Doug
Amen
 
Wrong question! The right question is in what context did Paul say that no good was in his flesh?

1) Paul is talking about an unconverted state, not a converted believer; and most certainly not of himself at the point of his writing those words.

People can read this for themselves and determine you're wrong.

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Where is Paul's flesh right now? Is it dead and buried in the ground? His flesh waits for deliverance.

2) “Flesh” is not taking about his physical nature, but the sinful nature. There is nothing good to be found in the sinful nature. Which is to state the obvious!

It is both. It involves/includes the natural body. This why Jesus could sympathize with us in the Incarnation. He that knew no sin became sin for us. Sin is more than just disobeying God. He who sins damages His own flesh.

3) “Good” refers to godliness of character and disposition, which, again, means the sinful nature is not of godly character or disposition.

Romans 7:14-ff is not referring to a saved individual, but rather an unsaved person who was relying upon keeping the law to give him life.


Doug

The form of Adam did not change after Adam sinned. His flesh was always incomplete and lacking what is necessary to continue in absolutely preventing sin. It was taken from dust and it returns to dust/ashes.

Which is why it is impossible now for a just man/righteous man to do good and sin not.

Mankind gradually devolved after the sin of Adam in their own sinfulness. This damaged the body of mankind and their offspring. It is why we don't live over 900 years anymore.
 

Then take this journey of discovery with me. It is time. You know enough now to consider something you've never be taught yourself.

Flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit. Arminianism attacked Calvinism and formed many incorrect assumptions.

Answer my responses to TibasDad.
 
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People can read this for themselves and determine you're wrong.

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Where is Paul's flesh right now? Is it dead and buried in the ground? His flesh waits for deliverance.
Can a believer be both a slave to sin and free from sin at the same time? Can one be able to keep all the righteous requirements of the law and not be able to do the good that he wants to do simultaneously?




It is both. It involves/includes the natural body. This why Jesus could sympathize with us in the Incarnation. He that knew no sin became sin for us. Sin is more than just disobeying God. He who sins damages His own flesh.

It is not both! The flesh in this context is the sinful nature.

Jesus sympathizes with us in our human condition and frailties. He was without sin, so his body was as Adam’s was when he was first created.

Sin is the transgression of the law. Do not conflate the effect of sin with the fact of sin.

The form of Adam did not change after Adam sinned. His flesh was always incomplete and lacking what is necessary to continue in absolutely preventing sin. It was taken from dust and it returns to dust/ashes.
The human body is neither sinful or holy in itself; sin is a spiritual entity and contaminates the spiritual nature of man, the soul and will and desires of the man.

The sinful nature affects the will and thus the desires and choices made by man, and thus will affect the wellbeing of his physical nature.


Which is why it is impossible now for a just man/righteous man to do good and sin not.
You haven’t read the NT.



Mankind gradually devolved after the sin of Adam in their own sinfulness. This damaged the body of mankind and their offspring. It is why we don't live over 900 years anymore.
Which affects nothing I’ve said.


Doug
 
Can a believer be both a slave to sin and free from sin at the same time? Can one be able to keep all the righteous requirements of the law and not be able to do the good that he wants to do simultaneously?

You can't keep the righteous requirements of the law. You prove it by continuing to sin. Name someone who has? If you want to name Christ, then name someone else besides Christ. You misunderstand what is written.


It is not both! The flesh in this context is the sinful nature.

I see a claim without evidence. My "both" is as good as your claim without evidence.

Jesus sympathizes with us in our human condition and frailties. He was without sin, so his body was as Adam’s was when he was first created.

So when Jesus suffered in His human body, this wasn't from the result of death working in his body? I know exactly what I believe about the Incarnation. I've spent many years arguing the subject. I have many more questions relative the suffering of Christ than this. He bore our condition from the very beginning of His advent.

Sin is the transgression of the law. Do not conflate the effect of sin with the fact of sin.

I'm not conflating anything. Your flesh limits you from keeping the law. Wait till you get older and become incapacitated (I hope you never do). I know what it is to watch as those I love become a "powerless shell" of a person. Are you then going to appeal to innocence or is Jesus going to empower you beyond the natural limits of your body? (not saying that He can't. He can). Even the Spiritual must know English to learn of God. "Words easily understood".... This flesh/brain/body limits us at most every level.

The human body is neither sinful or holy in itself; sin is a spiritual entity and contaminates the spiritual nature of man, the soul and will and desires of the man.
The sinful nature affects the will and thus the desires and choices made by man, and thus will affect the wellbeing of his physical nature.

The human body is weak. He is merciful because He knows that we are but flesh... Don't conflate the soul with flesh.

Psalm 103.
14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.
15 As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth.
16 For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more.

Yeah... there goes that "sinful nature" thing over and over again. Didn't Calvin and Augustine start that?

We make eunuchs of men to prevent sin. Is that a requirement of flesh?

Who knows the lust of mankind relative to his flesh that encompass the desires of the heart. King David was given a young virgin when he was old and when he couldn't do anything with the willing women, Adonijah sought to be king. David's flesh stopped him.

Our flesh stands in opposition both to our good and evil. If you arm offends you.... If you eye offends you..... We were taken from the ashes of previous destruction. Think of chromosomal abnormalities.

You haven’t read the NT.

You know I have. I'm challenging your beliefs. You have been influenced throughout your life by Arminianism. You should recognize this. When I about 24 or 25, I decided that was going start from "scratch". I had enough of both in my life. I knew they were both wrong. Wrong at fundamental levels that affected both of them equally. Arminianism isn't the solution to Calvinism. I decided I go where the Scriptures lead me. It has been a struggle but I'm more than capable of defending my position.

Which affects nothing I’ve said.


Doug

Sure it does. It doesn't fit the "sinful nature" demands in your theology.
 
You can't keep the righteous requirements of the law.

Rom 8:3…….And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Jesus died in order that we might be able to fully meet the righteous requirements of the law by living according to the Spirit and not the sinful nature (the flesh). If you are correct, then Jesus’s death failed to do what Paul clearly says he did.


Doug
 
I see a claim without evidence. My "both" is as good as your claim without evidence.

Rom 7:5For when we were in the realm of the flesh, a the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

a 5 In contexts like this, the Greek word for flesh (sarx) refers to the sinful state of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit.


Doug
 
So when Jesus suffered in His human body, this wasn't from the result of death working in his body?
No! The Word became flesh, became human, but as God was not subject to death, for he was not sinful.

Jesus said that nobody, and by extension no thing, was capable of taking his life unless he chose to lay it down. If Jesus had wanted to, he could still be alive on this earth today. He is life itself, and death cannot defeat him.

He humbled himself unto death, even death on a cross, purposefully. He would not have died a natural death simply because he had become flesh. The only way Jesus could die is by voluntarily letting himself be killed.


Doug
 
You know I have. I'm challenging your beliefs. You have been influenced throughout your life by Arminianism. You should recognize this. When I about 24 or 25, I decided that was going start from "scratch". I had enough of both in my life. I knew they were both wrong. Wrong at fundamental levels that affected both of them equally. Arminianism isn't the solution to Calvinism. I decided I go where the Scriptures lead me. It has been a struggle but I'm more than capable of defending my position.
Any one who concludes that we are incapable of not sinning on a consistent basis, having been filled with the Holy Spirit, after Christ set us free from the law of sin and death, they have not read the NT with comprehension.

In my humble opinion, the reading of Romans 7 as you have interpreted it, is devastating to the expectations of a new believer learning what the Christian life is supposed to be, and exasperating to more seasoned believers who have such defeatism etched into their minds that there is no other hope this side of death.

The Christian message that has no victory over sin in this life is no gospel.


Doug
 
Any one who concludes that we are incapable of not sinning on a consistent basis, having been filled with the Holy Spirit, after Christ set us free from the law of sin and death, they have not read the NT with comprehension.

In my humble opinion, the reading of Romans 7 as you have interpreted it, is devastating to the expectations of a new believer learning what the Christian life is supposed to be, and exasperating to more seasoned believers who have such defeatism etched into their minds that there is no other hope this side of death.

The Christian message that has no victory over sin in this life is no gospel.


Doug
I see that I've offended you to point you ignore your own sin to posit the impossible. Chastening involves the acknowledgement of sin. Admitting that we can not conquer sin because of our limitations is being truthful and real with other human beings. They see our sin better than we do.

If your flesh was racked with pain everyday of your life and you had to take countless meds to combat this pain that affects your cognitive ability, would then claim that you loved God with ALL (does this all of just a sort or literally all of) your heart, soul, and mind. I'm being real and I don't mind seeing things for exactly what they are. Our flesh is broken. Our flesh has gotten worse and worse throughout our history. When we fix something in humanity we break something else. What helps one person physically will kill someone else. Flesh is flesh. It limits the Spirit of God. The flesh lusts against the spirit amd the spirit against the flesh. They are contrary to one another. They do not compliment one another. It is a battle that we often fail.

I'm here discussing theology with you and you appear more accepting of Calvinists than me. I hope I'm wrong. I will deal with the details of your other responses tomorrow Lord willing....

If you are capable of living a life pleasing to God and all the demands therein, then why the need of the Resurrection? I groan in my Spirit waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of God. This old house I'm living is needing repair.
 
Then take this journey of discovery with me. It is time. You know enough now to consider something you've never be taught yourself.

Flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit. Arminianism attacked Calvinism and formed many incorrect assumptions.

Answer my responses to TibasDad.
Romans 8:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 8:1–10 (KJV 1900) — 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


I have to say Doug is correct
 
I suppose I agree with both parties here to a measure and degree. I do not see when the Bible in the NT is using the word flesh that is most of the time that it is referring to the physical body of men. Of course there are some scriptures which do but not most. I believe it's talking about the way and manner one views things naturally speaking as compared to spiritually. I think when Paul stated things like this body of sin it's just used as a metaphor for a wrong nature.

Wrong sinful thoughts may impact the mind and spike or arouse the feelings of the physical flesh but I don't believe there's anything of physical flesh which is evil in and of itself. Physical flesh has been effected after the fall as the whole creation was......DNA structures of the body were probably somewhat impacted as it was with all creation which now groans. The word flesh as used by Paul generally speaking had I think to do with a spiritual and mental way of viewing things.

(more to come)
 
Any one who concludes that we are incapable of not sinning on a consistent basis, having been filled with the Holy Spirit, after Christ set us free from the law of sin and death, they have not read the NT with comprehension.
So this question has been asked a lot. Are we absolutely free from the power of sin being a Christian? I'd say YES we are but NO we're not....DEPENDING on what one means by the statements. And people can be meaning different things by the words. And I believe Paul meant one thing and not another. So are we FREE? Does sin have dominion over us and there's no hope to rise above it? YES we are FREE! And yet Christians periodically do sin.

But we're not told in verses like 1 John 1 that when we sin we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous......it says IF we sin. So not when but if. As far as God is concerned he concluded that we In Christ or in the new creature sin is a dead thing to it. The question is though do each and every one of us believers choose to walk in the Spirit without fail? Unfortunately we don't.

So what does it take to walk elevated above the sinful impulse of a wrong way of thinking. It takes filling our spirits daily with God's word which provides spiritual strength and to be in communion through fellowship with the Lord to actually be in manifested FREEDOM. While we're in that state we realize the reality of FREEDOM. Christians don't all the time stay in that mode 100% of the time. They have the ability through Christ to do so but I think we all know the truth of it.....they or we just don't.

But does God wants us to actually think and believe sin has no dominion over us? Of course. Because it doesn't! Sound like a contradiction of terms but not really. This might be help.

If you're in a passenger jet and you're way up in the sky.....the power of gravity has been cancelled out due to the applying the principle of the law of lift and thrust. It will stay that way too as long as the two other laws are applied. Daily we must walk in the Spirit and choose to do so and Im sorry but you will have to choose that all the days of your life. So it's not hey you're locked into sinless perfection without a possibility to fail.

(more to come)

 
So most Christians believe we can walk in the Spirit and yes be free from sin.....for a certain measure of time. We're all going to sin sometime though but the scripture doesn't insist that has to be as 1 John 1:9 says IF we sin not WHEN we sin.

So to ones' who believe we can walk in the Spirit for a measure of time and yet we still will sin. So at what point along the way must this happen? Do you believe one can walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh for 1 minute? Most would say yeah sure for one minute. How about 10 minutes? How about 1 hour.....3 hours......6 or 24 hours? At what point must this fall apart. I'd say there is no MUST about it. You more than likely probably will but there's no must. But what is it that God want's. He wants us I'd say to have more FAITH in our capacity to succeed in him rather than to fail. He want's us to approach our day like a batter going to home plate always envisioning we'll get a home run.....as compared to striking out. In other words have more FAITH in victory in Christ and less FAITH in defeat.. Some have that reversed and are therefore kept in bondage.
 
Romans 8:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 8:1–10 (KJV 1900) — 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


I have to say Doug is correct

Do you see that word "might"

Can you deal with the facts of "might"?'

It is a goal that is unattainable. Sure you can live without sin for a time but you're wrapped in weakness. There are times you get so consumed with this problems of this flesh that you can't even see your own issues. That is true of all of us.

Arminians talk "around" this issue and pretend they are something they are not.
 
So most Christians believe we can walk in the Spirit and yes be free from sin.....for a certain measure of time. We're all going to sin sometime though but the scripture doesn't insist that has to be as 1 John 1:9 says IF we sin not WHEN we sin.

So to ones' who believe we can walk in the Spirit for a measure of time and yet we still will sin. So at what point along the way must this happen? Do you believe one can walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh for 1 minute? Most would say yeah sure for one minute. How about 10 minutes? How about 1 hour.....3 hours......6 or 24 hours? At what point must this fall apart. I'd say there is no MUST about it. You more than likely probably will but there's no must. But what is it that God want's. He wants us I'd say to have more FAITH in our capacity to succeed in him rather than to fail. He want's us to approach our day like a batter going to home plate always envisioning we'll get a home run.....as compared to striking out. In other words have more FAITH in victory in Christ and less FAITH in defeat.. Some have that reversed and are therefore kept in bondage.

Do you believe I am in bondage?

I knew a lady that lost her only son. He was murdered. One of the first things that came out her mouth when she found out about it was.....

"I hope God will save that man".....

We talk a "good talk" but reality is far different. Better people than myself have not survived similar. Arminians (doctrinal) would have those people damned in their sorrow.

When you "call them on it".... all you get is double talk and pride.
 
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