Taking credit for your salvation

[TomL]

I have it

The whole series?

It's rather expensive on logos

 

[praise_yeshua]

You said your standard for what a Christian is was low, I quoted Jesus’s standard which was very high. Yours is contrary to Jesus’s expressed standard.

I don't believe you actually Christ's standard in your comments. You simply referenced something Christ said and then claim it was a standard for salvation.

How can a "little one that believes in me" meet such a standard. I said mine was low because I'm not the judge and don't know the "minimum" level of faith required to please God. We know that many throughout history believed in a God they couldn't name. All they knew was they trusted that God with what would happen after their death.

To me, that qualifies. I wish that the faithful would be able to win the entire world to Christ and help them mature to be everything they could potential be but most of the time it never happens. Even those "mature" in faith often have poor lapses in judgement to the point there isn't anything left to "pick" as work of righteousness.

Only God knows at what point we have abandoned him. The only question would be, is it possible?

With God, all things are possible!

Rom 8:1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, b God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. c And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Doug

I'll leave it at this. We mostly agree here.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The question is what is Paul reaching for?

10I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

Phil 3:12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

The quest is to complete the task for which God had called, and to let his life mirror the life of Christ, to ultimately die for him as he did for us, “and somehow attain to the resurrection of the dead”, as Christ rose from the dead.

Paul has already established what the Christian life should look like:

Rom 6:1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

And he continues again later in the chapter:

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

And finally, as I’ve stated before, Paul declares with no uncertainty in Romans 8:1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


Doug

Do you believe Paul was reaching beyond his mistakes? I do. I'm not the judge of any man. Paul is a better man than us all. However, he wasn't absent sin.

We set standards and break them over and over again. Which is my point in "reaching".

Much of the Scripture is a "self awareness" test. Calvinist fail this test so very often. Arminians do too. I do too. We are all the same in this. It is just a matter of degree.

The faith should always keep reaching.

 

[civic]

The whole series?

It's rather expensive on logos

Yes and about 1/2 of them in hardcover in the N.T

 

[TomL]

Yes and about 1/2 of them in hardcover in the N.T

I thought about getting them for logos, but it is too expensive right now

 

[TibiasDad]

Do you believe Paul was reaching beyond his mistakes?

I don’t believe that is what Paul was referring to in Phil 3:13-14. The language is not about reaching beyond something, but striving, exerting oneself toward something.
The focus is about forgetting everything except what God had promised him and called him to do. To attain being raised from the dead!

I do. I'm not the judge of any man. Paul is a better man than us all. However, he wasn't absent sin.

I find it interesting that Paul was very quick to refer to his past sins, as well as point out the sins of others (Peter’s hypocrisy, the Corinthian man sleeping with his father’s wife), but there is no hint of Paul or anyone else pointing out his own sins.

I’m not saying that Paul was absolutely perfect, but that there was no pattern of sinful behavior or overt action of wrong doing that is ever discussed.

We set standards and break them over and over again. Which is my point in "reaching".

Again, I don’t think this was Paul’s meaning or intention for reaching.

Much of the Scripture is a "self awareness" test. Calvinist fail this test so very often. Arminians do too. I do too. We are all the same in this. It is just a matter of degree.

The faith should always keep reaching.

We all need to strive to be more like Christ in character and conduct. We are all capable of sinning;”; but the goal and expectation is that all believers will, sooner rather than later, not sin as a regular practice (1John 2:1-2, Rom 6:1-3, 15-17, 8:1-4). Bad behavior is not an overt quality of a growing believer.

This is not to say that young believers don’t have struggles overcoming habitual behaviors, or that there should be an immediate transformation in every aspect of our lives. There should be, however, with proper discipleship and teaching a steady and ever increasing change of behavior and character.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

I don't believe you actually Christ's standard in your comments. You simply referenced something Christ said and then claim it was a standard for salvation.

1) I’m saying nothing about a standard for salvation; I am saying that the evidence of one who is truly a believer in Christ is that they love others like they have been loved.

1 John 2:
3We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5But if anyone obeys his word, love for God a is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

7Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 8Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.

9Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister b is still in the darkness. 10Anyone who loves their brother and sister c lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. 11But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.

1 John 3:
11For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous. 13Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters, b if the world hates you. 14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

16This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. 17If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

John certainly believed that love was the standard that Jesus established!

Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

1) I’m saying nothing about a standard for salvation; I am saying that the evidence of one who is truly a believer in Christ is that they love others like they have been loved.

1 John 2:
3We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5But if anyone obeys his word, love for God a is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

7Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 8Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.

9Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister b is still in the darkness. 10Anyone who loves their brother and sister c lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. 11But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.

1 John 3:
11For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous. 13Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters, b if the world hates you. 14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

16This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. 17If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

John certainly believed that love was the standard that Jesus established!

Doug

So....

When a Calvinist claims that God has purposed the majority of their brothers in Adam to damnation, what does that equal exactly?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I don’t believe that is what Paul was referring to in Phil 3:13-14. The language is not about reaching beyond something, but striving, exerting oneself toward something.
The focus is about forgetting everything except what God had promised him and called him to do. To attain being raised from the dead!



I find it interesting that Paul was very quick to refer to his past sins, as well as point out the sins of others (Peter’s hypocrisy, the Corinthian man sleeping with his father’s wife), but there is no hint of Paul or anyone else pointing out his own sins.

I’m not saying that Paul was absolutely perfect, but that there was no pattern of sinful behavior or overt action of wrong doing that is ever discussed.



Again, I don’t think this was Paul’s meaning or intention for reaching.


We all need to strive to be more like Christ in character and conduct. We are all capable of sinning;”; but the goal and expectation is that all believers will, sooner rather than later, not sin as a regular practice (1John 2:1-2, Rom 6:1-3, 15-17, 8:1-4). Bad behavior is not an overt quality of a growing believer.

This is not to say that young believers don’t have struggles overcoming habitual behaviors, or that there should be an immediate transformation in every aspect of our lives. There should be, however, with proper discipleship and teaching a steady and ever increasing change of behavior and character.


Doug

1. Did Paul say that in his flesh dwelled no good thing?

2. I see a tremendous amount of contradictory word parsing going on here as is typical within Arminianism. If Paul said he had not attained, then he hadn't attained. If Paul looked forward to death "which would be much better" for Him, then Paul certainly wasn't always and in every way capable of being without sin.

3. If we sin, is it a regular practice? The limits of flesh in this life lead to open weaknesses and failures. Confession is part of a healthy life in Christ. Faith leads to confession that trusts God's continual forgiveness.

4. What happens when young believers follow in the failures they were taught pleased God?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

So....

When a Calvinist claims that God has purposed the majority of their brothers in Adam to damnation, what does that equal exactly?

Everyone is bound to damnation by default. Nobody goes to hell without deserving it, even if God saved no one. So, if God has mercy only on some, He is not unjust.

 

[TomL]

So....

When a Calvinist claims that God has purposed the majority of their brothers in Adam to damnation, what does that equal exactly?

Error

 

[TomL]

Everyone is bound to damnation by default. Nobody goes to hell without deserving it, even if God saved no one. So, if God has mercy only on some, He is not unjust.

By God's determination in Calvinism

 

[praise_yeshua]

Error

What impact does this have upon individuals?

Does the impact demand stronger language of condemnation?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Everyone is bound to damnation by default. Nobody goes to hell without deserving it, even if God saved no one. So, if God has mercy only on some, He is not unjust.

You don't believe you were bound to damnation. This farce is part of your deception. You believe God purposed you for salvation while damning most everyone else. Thusly, God finds you valuable while he hates all others that you magically claim you are just like.

It is a damnable farce. If there is anyone that is deserving of damnation... it is those who hate their own brothers in Adam and Eve.

It is overwhelming obvious to everyone but a Calvinist or at least it should be.

Calvinists have a self marketing campaign not a ministry that prompts Jesus Christ. You will serve Christ or you will face damnation. Make no mistake about this. This is the Arminian position

 

[civic]

Everyone is bound to damnation by default. Nobody goes to hell without deserving it, even if God saved no one. So, if God has mercy only on some, He is not unjust.

Sure he is since he could have saved everyone by regenerating them and giving them faith like he did with only the elect degenerate reprobate sinners. It’s rather obvious in Calvinism god shows favoritism

 

[TibiasDad]

So....

When a Calvinist claims that God has purposed the majority of their brothers in Adam to damnation, what does that equal exactly?

I have no idea what this has do with my post or our current discussion.

Doug

 

[TomL]

What impact does this have upon individuals?

Does the impact demand stronger language of condemnation?

Negative regarding proclamation of the gospel

rebuke, correction certainly

 

[praise_yeshua]

I have no idea what this has do with my post or our current discussion.

Doug

Arminians tend to ignore the ramifications of their beliefs just as much as Calvinists do. I've been around them all my life. Some Arminians will fellowship with Calvinists as long they refuse to preach election. Some will even let a Calvinist preach for them if they refuse to preach election. The same is true of some Calvinists as long as they don't preach on election and perseverance.

The doctrines are NOT capable at any level. Not even close. Yet, you speak as if they are.

 

[TomL]

Arminians tend to ignore the ramifications of their beliefs just as much as Calvinists do. I've been around them all my life. Some Arminians will fellowship with Calvinists as long they refuse to preach election. Some will even let a Calvinist preach for them if they refuse to preach election. The same is true of some Calvinists as long as they don't preach on election and perseverance.

The doctrines are NOT capable at any level. Not even close. Yet, you speak as if they are.

And often result in church splits

 

[civic]

Arminians tend to ignore the ramifications of their beliefs just as much as Calvinists do. I've been around them all my life. Some Arminians will fellowship with Calvinists as long they refuse to preach election. Some will even let a Calvinist preach for them if they refuse to preach election. The same is true of some Calvinists as long as they don't preach on election and perseverance.

The doctrines are NOT capable at any level. Not even close. Yet, you speak as if they are.

In our mens discipleship group on Thursday mornings at church ( 20-30 men ) we have a few calvinists and in our saturday morning small mens discipleship 2/5 are calvinists. So I get to challenge them openly when certain topics are brought up or certain passages are quoted implying predestination, election, sovereignty, TD, UE or I.