Taking credit for your salvation

[TomL]

Do you see that word "might"

Can you deal with the facts of "might"?'

It is a goal that is unattainable. Sure you can live without sin for a time but you're wrapped in weakness. There are times you get so consumed with this problems of this flesh that you can't even see your own issues. That is true of all of us.

Arminians talk "around" this issue and pretend they are something they are not.

might = ability. What Paul notes in Rom 7 indicated no ability

Romans 8:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

these however make it more clear and critical

Romans 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 8:1–10 (KJV 1900) — 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I suppose I agree with both parties here to a measure and degree. I do not see when the Bible in the NT is using the word flesh that is most of the time that it is referring to the physical body of men. Of course there are some scriptures which do but not most. I believe it's talking about the way and manner one views things naturally speaking as compared to spiritually. I think when Paul stated things like this body of sin it's just used as a metaphor for a wrong nature.

I believe I can convince you otherwise.

1. Did the breath of God that animated Adam's and Eve's bodies change when Eve sinned?

2. Did their physical bodies change?

My answers

1. No.
2. No.

Wrong sinful thoughts may impact the mind and spike or arouse the feelings of the physical flesh but I don't believe there's anything of physical flesh which is evil in and of itself. Physical flesh has been effected after the fall as the whole creation was......DNA structures of the body were probably somewhat impacted as it was with all creation which now groans. The word flesh as used by Paul generally speaking had I think to do with a spiritual and mental way of viewing things.

(more to come)

I used the word "weak". The breath of God that came Adam enlightened Adam. It gifted Adam with the ability to reason. To think. To consume information. When Adam sinned He became like God. He gained the ability to know the opposites

Before this, there was no choice for him to know the alternatives to goodness in God. All he experienced was goodness.

The flesh Adam had then is not the same flesh that we have today. Our flesh has devolved. We are after Adam's likeness but we are physically much different today.

 

[TibiasDad]

So most Christians believe we can walk in the Spirit and yes be free from sin.....for a certain measure of time. We're all going to sin sometime though but the scripture doesn't insist that has to be as 1 John 1:9 says IF we sin not WHEN we sin.

So to ones' who believe we can walk in the Spirit for a measure of time and yet we still will sin. So at what point along the way must this happen? Do you believe one can walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh for 1 minute? Most would say yeah sure for one minute. How about 10 minutes? How about 1 hour.....3 hours......6 or 24 hours? At what point must this fall apart. I'd say there is no MUST about it. You more than likely probably will but there's no must. But what is it that God want's. He wants us I'd say to have more FAITH in our capacity to succeed in him rather than to fail. He want's us to approach our day like a batter going to home plate always envisioning we'll get a home run.....as compared to striking out. In other words have more FAITH in victory in Christ and less FAITH in defeat.. Some have that reversed and are therefore kept in bondage.

I think you’ve hit the nail squarely on the head in this and your other posts! The fact of the matter, as you have pointed out, is that we are given control of only this finite present moment, and in Christ, there is no necessity that a decision made in this moment be contrary to God’s holiness.

So if there is no necessity for going against God in this present moment, there is no necessity in any subsequent moment and, through living in the Spirit, we are capable of living any amount of extended time without going against the holiness of God.

The Spirit is always quick to warn and/or convict us when sin is “ at the door” and it tells us that we should “master it”; and praise be to God, we are able to master it!


Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

might = ability. What Paul notes in Rom 7 indicated no ability

Romans 8:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

these however make it more clear and critical

Romans 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 8:1–10 (KJV 1900) — 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Before we move onto verse 13 I would challenge you on your translation of "might". There is no sense in the statement of absolute certainty.

Would you agree?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I think you’ve hit the nail squarely on the head in this and your other posts! The fact of the matter, as you have pointed out, is that we are given control of only this finite present moment, and in Christ, there is no necessity that a decision made in this moment be contrary to God’s holiness.

So if there is no necessity for going against God in this present moment, there is no necessity in any subsequent moment and, through living in the Spirit, we are capable of living any amount of extended time without going against the holiness of God.

The Spirit is always quick to warn and/or convict us when sin is “ at the door” and it tells us that we should “master it”; and praise be to God, we are able to master it!


Doug

Utter nonsense. You're pretend you have the endless ability to always please God. Your own life proves otherwise.

Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

This world has only known perfection in Jesus Christ.

My Gospel isn't "look at me". My Gospel isn't. "Look how God has empowered me." My Gospel .... "Look to Christ and be saved all the ends of the earth".

He has forgiven me......... and continues to forgive me....

So which one of these appeals to Grace, Mercy, Longsuffering, Peace, Comfort, Commitment.....

Look at how holy God has made me.......... Or look to Christ, He is our wonderful forgiving Father. He will never forsake you.

 

[TomL]

Before we move onto verse 13 I would challenge you on your translation of "might". There is no sense in the statement of absolute certainty.

Would you agree?

Irrelevant

Paul claimed no ability that precludes might

might = ability. What Paul notes in Rom 7 indicated no ability, no possibility

Romans 8:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

this the subjective mood- the mood of probability determined by the context

thus you cannot read it in isolation


these however make it more clear and critical

Romans 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 8:1–10 (KJV 1900) — 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

It is simply consistent with your interpretation of Rom 7

 

[praise_yeshua]

Rom 7:5For when we were in the realm of the flesh, a the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

a 5 In contexts like this, the Greek word for flesh (sarx) refers to the sinful state of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit.


Doug

You're preaching Concupiscence. This single reply deserves its own thread.

@civic

Did you know Concupiscence came from Augustine? I learned this a very long time ago. It is why the KJV uses the word Concupiscence in verse #8.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Concupiscence is a doctrine. Not a translation. You are doing what has been done for a very long time. Injecting your bias in belief relative to Concupiscence into the words of the Scriptures.

It simply refers to lust. Our flesh (Body. You must first start with the body. That is what God started with) desires things that natural to it. When you have sex it is natural. Sex in and of itself isn't wrong but it certainly can become wrong. Our flesh desires sex naturally. That desire comes from what we are made from and how we were designed by God.

The teachings of Concupiscence are wrong.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Irrelevant

Paul claimed no ability that precludes might

might = ability. What Paul notes in Rom 7 indicated no ability, no possibility

Tom, you don't need to repeat what you've posted before with me. I can read. I know what you're saying.

It is most certainly relevant. If Paul is referring to goal relative to exactly how a person can please God (which it is), then there is always a "might" involved relative to the combination of flesh and Spirit.

That is why we are going to be Resurrected to an incorruptible body.

Which brings me to another point that I asked you deal with as well.

If God is going to change our vile bodies

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

What is left in the grave Tom?

If what Arminianism teaches were true, then we would need to change in the future.....

You know the "We are now the SONS OF GOD"..... why the need for a change in flesh.

Is the intellect of mankind buried in the grave rotting away? @civic

 

[civic]

I haven’t been following this closely. I’ll look into it after work and give my 2 cents fwiw.

 

[TibiasDad]

Do you see that word "might"

Can you deal with the facts of "might"?'

In the Greek, this is a ἵνα clause, which means the action referenced was completed so that a particular result will be realized. In Romans 8:3 Christ “condemned” sin, and this action was completed “in order that” ἵνα, “the righteous requirements of the law” be “fully met in us” who live after the Spirit.

There is no other possible interpretation than that which says we have been made capable of keeping the full requirements of the law. If we are capable, the the expectation of of such is inescapable!


Doug

 

[TomL]

Tom, you don't need to repeat what you've posted before with me. I can read. I know what you're saying.

It is most certainly relevant. If Paul is referring to goal relative to exactly how a person can please God (which it is), then there is always a "might" involved relative to the combination of flesh and Spirit.

That is why we are going to be Resurrected to an incorruptible body.

Which brings me to another point that I asked you deal with as well.

If God is going to change our vile bodies

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

What is left in the grave Tom?

If what Arminianism teaches were true, then we would need to change in the future.....

You know the "We are now the SONS OF GOD"..... why the need for a change in flesh.

Is the intellect of mankind buried in the grave rotting away? @civic

I do not see that you have provided anything which lends any credence to your view because of the word might

as i note

might = ability. What Paul notes in Rom 7 indicated no ability, no possibility

Romans 8:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

this the subjective mood- the mood of probability determined by the context

thus you cannot read it in isolation but must consider the context

And as far as I can see the context is decisively contrary to your view

Romans 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 8:1–10 (KJV 1900) — 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

It is simply consistent with your interpretation of Rom 7

 

[praise_yeshua]

I do not see that you have provided anything which lends any credence to your view because of the word might

as i note

might = ability. What Paul notes in Rom 7 indicated no ability, no possibility

Romans 8:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

this the subjective mood- the mood of probability determined by the context

thus you cannot read it in isolation but must consider the context

And as far as I can see the context is decisively contrary to your view

Romans 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 8:1–10 (KJV 1900) — 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

It is simply consistent with your interpretation of Rom 7

Why do you insist upon repost what you've already stated. That is what you do when you're avoiding a conversation.

We don't have to discuss. It is clear there is no certainty whatsoever in the statement.

I think you believe that God wouldn't tell you to do something if you couldn't do it. I believe God does this to make you aware of your own limitations....

You know like.... "Go ahead. Do it".

The fact that you fail should be an indication of limits of your own abilities.

 

[TomL]

In the Greek, this is a ἵνα clause, which means the action referenced was completed so that a particular result will be realized. In Romans 8:3 Christ “condemned” sin, and this action was completed “in order that” ἵνα, “the righteous requirements of the law” be “fully met in us” who live after the Spirit.

There is no other possible interpretation than that which says we have been made capable of keeping the full requirements of the law. If we are capable, the the expectation of of such is inescapable!


Doug

yes, that we might fulfill the righteous requirement of the law. It is in the subjective mood which indicates the probability of this is indicated by context

It is just not possible to read the context and consistent with it deny we can fulfill the righteous requirements of the law

 

[TomL]

Why do you insist upon repost what you've already stated. That is what you do when you're avoiding a conversation.

We don't have to discuss. It is clear there is no certainty whatsoever in the statement.

I think you believe that God wouldn't tell you to do something if you couldn't do it. I believe God does this to make you aware of your own limitations....

You know like.... "Go ahead. Do it".

The fact that you fail should be an indication of limits of your own abilities.

Not at all I am trying to get you to deal with the context when you wish to go elsewhere.
You need to first deal with what the context states before going elsewhere.

 

[praise_yeshua]

In the Greek, this is a ἵνα clause, which means the action referenced was completed so that a particular result will be realized. In Romans 8:3 Christ “condemned” sin, and this action was completed “in order that” ἵνα, “the righteous requirements of the law” be “fully met in us” who live after the Spirit.

There is no other possible interpretation than that which says we have been made capable of keeping the full requirements of the law. If we are capable, the the expectation of of such is inescapable!


Doug

You're framing the exact same style of argument that Calvinists use with their use of "blurbs". You're living a very small area and defining your theology based upon doctrinal positions relative to what you believe about "ἵνα".

If you're capable just as Christ is capable, then why Christ?

If righteousness came by keeping "some" law..... then Christ is dead in vain. Laws do not establish intent. All they do is create compliance. Motive is everything with God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Not at all I am trying to get you to deal with the context when you wish to go elsewhere.
You need to first deal with what the context states before going elsewhere.

I go else where because I'm establishing an overall position. You're revert to Calvinist tactics with "blurbs".

I tried to get you to recognize your own inabilities and establish the very real fact that there is no absolute to be found in the statement. If they are, when you fail, you condemn yourself. There is no sense in pretending you don't fail.

You're doing what Calvinists do themselves. You're restricting the conversation to what you want to deal with.

I'll be glad to move on but I ask that you just don't "copy and paste" your previous response and then add a line or two at the top.

 

[TomL]

You're framing the exact same style of argument that Calvinists use with their use of "blurbs". You're living a very small area and defining your theology based upon doctrinal positions relative to what you believe about "ἵνα".

If you're capable just as Christ is capable, then why Christ?

If righteousness came by keeping "some" law..... then Christ is dead in vain. Laws do not establish intent. All they do is create compliance. Motive is everything with God.

But this is after Christ has been formed in you through the Holy Spirit not before

Romans 8:9–13 (ESV) — 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. 12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

 

[TibiasDad]

Utter nonsense. You're pretend you have the endless ability to always please God. Your own life proves otherwise.

I pretend nothing; I am set free from the law of sin and death! Whether I walk in that truth is my choice and ability, but as has been noted many times, “Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” (Rom 8:12-13)


Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

But this is after Christ has been formed in you through the Holy Spirit not before

Romans 8:9–13 (ESV) — 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. 12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

The flesh dies. Some die earlier than others. Some live huge meaningful lives in the flesh. The man Adam that brought a curse upon us all lived to be almost a 1000 years old. I'd say he pleased God.

 

[TomL]

I go else where because I'm establishing an overall position. You're revert to Calvinist tactics with "blurbs".

I tried to get you to recognize your own inabilities and establish the very real fact that there is no absolute to be found in the statement. If they are, when you fail, you condemn yourself. There is no sense in pretending you don't fail.

You're doing what Calvinists do themselves. You're restricting the conversation to what you want to deal with.

I'll be glad to move on but I ask that you just don't "copy and paste" your previous response and then add a line or two at the top.

Nope you must first deal with the text under discussion and what it states,

after that we can seek confirmation from other texts.

You seem to think the text means we can be sinlessly perfect, I do not been it does but I do believe it indicates a general pattern in our life