Taking credit for your salvation

[Rockson]

Romans 7:7–25 unpacks verse 5, and Romans 8:1–17 unpacks verse 6. In verses 7–25 we see how sin via the law brings death to those in the flesh, and in Romans 8:1–17 we see how the Spirit grants life to those who belong to Jesus Christ. Romans 7:5–6 forecasts what Paul is about to say in remarkably clear terms. The Holy Spirit is never mentioned in Romans 7:7–25. But Paul refers to the Spirit 15 times in Romans 8:1–17, suggesting that the person described in Romans 7:7–25 is one who doesn’t have the Spirit in his life. The essence of what it means to be a Christian is to be indwelt with the Spirit (Rom. 8:9). We see in both Romans 7:14 and 7:18 that the one described is of the “flesh,” one who is still in the old Adam, one who is unregenerate.


The total defeat described in Romans 7 contradicts how Paul describes Christian experience in Romans 6 and 8. Paul proclaims in Romans 6 that we’re no longer slaves to sin (6:6), that we’re free from the sin that enslaved us when we were unbelievers (Rom. 6:16–19).


Romans 7- Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.


4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.


7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.


13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.


14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.


21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.


A number of objections surface against what I’ve said. Let’s look at two of them briefly. First, how does a reference to unbelievers fit with Romans 7:23 (“For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being”)? Doesn’t such delight and longing for God’s law show that a believer is in view? Not necessarily. Many pious Jews loved God’s law and yet didn’t know God. Paul himself testifies that the Jews have a “zeal for God,” though they lacked knowledge (Rom. 10:2). There can be zeal and delight in the law (witness the Pharisees) when one isn’t truly saved.


Second, Paul shifts from past-tense verbs in Romans 7:7–11 to present-tense verbs in verses 14–25. Doesn’t that prove Christians are in view? Not necessarily. Scholars recognize that present tense doesn’t necessarily designate present time. The temporal nature of an action must be discerned from context, since present-tense verbs, even in the indicative, may be used with reference to the past or even the future.


The tense of the verb doesn’t emphasize time in Romans 7:7–25. Rather, the use of the present tense here fits with the state or condition of the person. Paul is emphasizing one’s captivity, subjugation, and impotence under the law. His use of the present tense doesn’t denote past time but highlights in a vivid way the slavery of life under the law.


If I’m right in the way I interpret this passage, the difference between me and those who see this as Christian experience isn’t great. After all, we both agree that believers fall short in numerous ways and that we struggle daily with sin. The reason we differ is that I see Romans 7:13–25 as describing total defeat, and that isn’t our story as Christians since the Holy Spirit also empowers us to live in a new way. Thomas Schreiner

hope this helps !!!

Could be talking about his experience as a non Christian. I won't say I'm right I can live with it being either way. I've always leaned towards believing Rom 7 is still talking about yes his experience even being a Christian. We do know his statements reflect what even a lot of Christians consider their experience is after receiving Christ that the thing they delight to do they don't. What I tend to think Paul was stating was that if you walk in the flesh or seeking to overcome sin by the power of the flesh or the natural man or mind you'll always be pulled back into it. So Paul asks who and what will deliver him from the body of death.....and then we get into Rm 8 . I'll put my commentary in blue.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (I don't believe it's talking about condemnation as in not going to heaven...but rather condemnation of having a guilt ridden consciousness)
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (question is do we ALWAYS walk after the Spirit as a Christian 100% of the time every moment of the day? We have the potential to do so but do we do it? I'd say no) 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (and yes it's talking here about the non Christian for a moment. They absolutely do not walk after the Spirit at no time but let's continue......) 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. (yes that is your right legally in the Spirit position you have in Christ) Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (yes this is what God is willing to do in us on a continual basis but let's continue......) 12Therefore, brethren, (ok he's talking about brethren) we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, (for if you live after the flesh......that means potentially one can but by doing so it does not reflect the real you....the new creation in Christ Jesus) 13 For if ye live after the flesh ye shall die; but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body ye shall live. (I think Paul was stating then if he walked in only faith in his own abilities yes even though he was a Christian he was bound to fail. By declaring and decreeing continually however his position in Christ that causes God or the glory within us to rise up with overcoming power and we do by experience walk free from sin and we walk free from condemnation.

13 but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (again it's IF we Christians do. I'm open to a different way of looking at this but this is how I view it. Could be wrong but I think not. )

 

[TomL]

You and Dr. Schreiner took the words right out of my mouth!


Doug

FYI: Schreiner has a commentary on Romans in the Baker exegetical commentary set.

 

[TibiasDad]

I've always leaned towards believing Rom 7 is still talking about yes his experience even being a Christian.

How can Paul admonish the Romans in chapter 6 that we are free from slavery to sin, and then say that he is still a slave to sin in Rom 7? In 6 and 8 he is free, but in 7 he is “not able to do the good he wants to do”! That cannot be congruent.

Doug

 

[civic]

FYI: Schreiner has a commentary on Romans in the Baker exegetical commentary set.

I have it

 

[civic]

How can Paul admonish the Romans in chapter 6 that we are free from slavery to sin, and then say that he is still a slave to sin in Rom 7? In 6 and 8 he is free, but in 7 he is “not able to do the good he wants to do”! That cannot be congruent.

Doug

Agreed

 

[synergy]

How can Paul admonish the Romans in chapter 6 that we are free from slavery to sin, and then say that he is still a slave to sin in Rom 7? In 6 and 8 he is free, but in 7 he is “not able to do the good he wants to do”! That cannot be congruent.

Doug

In 6 our union with Christ has set us free not to.sin, in 7 he realizes that he still has a propensity to sin in his members, and in 8 he describes the solution of sin which is our abiding in the Spirit. Therefore, there is fluidity of thought from one chapter to another.

 

[Rockson]

How can Paul admonish the Romans in chapter 6 that we are free from slavery to sin, and then say that he is still a slave to sin in Rom 7? In 6 and 8 he is free, but in 7 he is “not able to do the good he wants to do”! That cannot be congruent.

Doug

Like I said it, "Could be talking about his experience as a non Christian. I won't say I'm right I can live with it being either way. And also I said, I'm open to a different way of thinking about it and admitted I could be wrong. I do believe we are dead to sin Rm 6 states so the old man died on the cross but daily we have to reckon it so meaning we daily have to walk by faith in Christ to walk free from sin. Plus we do see the experience similar of Christians of what Paul states in Rom 7 so many don't want to sin but many times have been overcome periodically by it.

I think we're both in agreement we have In Christ overcome sin but yet we half to walk it out correct? So I'm sure we believe Doug that we as Christian still can sin not that God gives his stamp of approval in it but in capacity we're not locked into a sinless perfection at least not yet. Maybe you can tell me Doug what are the dynamics involved with a Christian who does fall into sin. We both believe they are free from sin but how do you look upon the issue. Would you agree it's something we have to walk it out?

 

[Rockson]

In 6 our union with Christ has set us free not to.sin, in 7 he realizes that he still has a propensity to sin in his members, and in 8 he describes the solution of sin which is our abiding in the Spirit. Therefore, there is fluidity of thought from one chapter to another.

I think this reflects what I was seeking to say.

 

[TomL]

I have it

Ah

 

[TomL]

I think this reflects what I was seeking to say.

I think what Paul is saying is too strongly negative for a regenerate believer

Romans 7:14–20 (NASB 2020) — 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For I do not understand what I am doing; for I am not practicing what I want to do, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 However, if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, that the Law is good. 17 But now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I do the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin that dwells in me.

Romans 7:21–24 (NASB 2020) — 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully agree with the law of God in the inner person, 23 but I see a different law in the parts of my body waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin, the law which is in my body’s parts. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

and pictures a man still in bondage not set free

 

[Johann]

Pre -regenerate Paul

Romans 7:14–19 (KJV 1900) — 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Sounds like a man still in bondage

Nope-agree to disagree.

 

[TomL]

Nope-agree to disagree.

Thats fine. You have the right to be wrong and contradict yourself

 

[Johann]

Thats fine. You have the right to be wrong and contradict yourself

And you have the right to be wrong and contradict yourself.

 

[civic]

Thats fine. You have the right to be wrong and contradict yourself

Yes it’s the old man under the law of sin.

 

[TomL]

Yes it’s the old man under the law of sin.

it's so obvious here

Romans 6:3–22 (KJV 1900) — 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

The things states in chapter 7 cannot be describing one who has had his old man crucified and is now a servant to righteousness

 

[praise_yeshua]

As you have correctly noted, love doesn’t mean you just accept everything at face value.

But I would caution you against saying Jesus’s declaration is contradictory.

I never said Jesus was contradictory. You created a contradiction in your response.

Love means to seek the good for another; that is a very difficult thing to do consistently. But if one is a true follower of Jesus, then his life will begin to “conform to the image” of Jesus and seek the best for those whom seek their detriment.

This statement has never made any "sense" to me relative to what Arminianism teaches. Can I ask you to commit to how many times must a Christian fall before He is rejected or abandoning God?

The only thing we are called to be perfect in, according to Jesus, is to love like God has loved. (Matt 5:48)

Doug

No man can do this. It is an unobtainable goal in this flesh. That is why we are always REACHING.....

Forgetting those things that are behind..... REACHING. REACHING... REACHING again.

Even when we can, we can't sustain it. I had a friend one time that told me something that I learned to be true. He has moved on to Glory now. He said...

Just one "Oh crap" with destroy a dozen "that a boys".

That is how love works in this life. I see no limit to such in God. God forgives regardless of weighted efforts to the contrary. Which is what I see Arminianism teaching.

I do believe a person can theoretically "fall from Grace" but I can't find a place where it takes place. It is not mine to judge.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I’ve said nothing contrary to this.


Doug

Just making the point that we don't matter in the context of any conversation relative to God.

 

[TomL]

And you have the right to be wrong and contradict yourself.

Um but you are the one who contradicted himself as I have shown. I have not

 

[TibiasDad]

I never said Jesus was contradictory. You created a contradiction in your response.

You said your standard for what a Christian is was low, I quoted Jesus’s standard which was very high. Yours is contrary to Jesus’s expressed standard.

This statement has never made any "sense" to me relative to what Arminianism teaches. Can I ask you to commit to how many times must a Christian fall before He is rejected or abandoning God?

Only God knows at what point we have abandoned him. The only question would be, is it possible?

No man can do this. It is an unobtainable goal in this flesh. That is why we are always REACHING.....

With God, all things are possible!

Rom 8:1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, b God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. c And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Forgetting those things that are behind..... REACHING. REACHING... REACHING again.

The question is what is Paul reaching for?

10I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

Phil 3:12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

The quest is to complete the task for which God had called, and to let his life mirror the life of Christ, to ultimately die for him as he did for us, “and somehow attain to the resurrection of the dead”, as Christ rose from the dead.

Paul has already established what the Christian life should look like:

Rom 6:1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

And he continues again later in the chapter:

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

And finally, as I’ve stated before, Paul declares with no uncertainty in Romans 8:1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


Doug