Salvation and Unitarians

[mikesw]

God cannot be a Messenger of God.
God cannot be an Intercessor before God.
God cannot beget God.
God cannot send God to the world.
God cannot raise God from the dead.
God cannot deliver up the Kingdom to God.
God cannot sit at the right of God.

I encourage you, @civic and @praise_yeshua to stop the accumulation of logical contradictions, accept that you believe in the Trinity by faith, by choice, and that you embrace your Unitarian Christian neighbors (including @Studyman and @Peterlag) as brothers and sisters, saved by the same undeserved grace of God.

Any atheist can deny what God can do since they do not know God or acknowledge his ability. Then you take the lack of scriptural knowledge of God and use that lacking to try to use reductionistic human concepts to reject the testimony of scripture. If God were only a single "person" rather than Trinitarian in essence, your argument would make some sense. However, your response is just using your denial of the Trinitarian nature to make your argument.
Anyhow, how do you know what God can and cannot do? What knowledge of God do you claim to have apart from the testimony of the Christian scriptures? Who do you know that was raised from the dead to testify to the accuracy of the message someone shared while alive on earth? It is only Christ who has been raised from the dead as the message of God first physically on earth and now in the heavens.

 

[synergy]

God cannot be a Messenger of God.
God cannot be an Intercessor before God.
God cannot beget God.
God cannot send God to the world.
God cannot raise God from the dead.
God cannot deliver up the Kingdom to God.
God cannot sit at the right of God.

I encourage you, @civic and @praise_yeshua to stop the accumulation of logical contradictions, accept that you believe in the Trinity by faith, by choice, and that you embrace your Unitarian Christian neighbors (including @Studyman and @Peterlag) as brothers and sisters, saved by the same undeserved grace of God.

I would encourage you to embrace what the Bible says about Jesus:

(Isa 9:6) For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.​

(2 Pet 1:1) Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

(Titus 2:13) waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

(Rom 9:5) To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

There are many more: John 8:58, Rev 1:8, John 1:1, 1 Tim 3:16, Matt 1:23, John 20:28-29, etc...

Conclusion: The Judaizing aspirations of all Unitarian faiths (Islam included) has been nailed to the Cross.​

Therefore, it can be said that:

the Uncreated Word of God can be a Messenger of God the Father.​

the Uncreated Word of God can be an Intercessor before God the Father.​

And so on….​

As far as who’s saved, that’s God’s domain, not mine nor yours.

 

[synergy]

It is interesting that you bring the topic of Judaizers.
Why don't we have in any of the epistles of Paul the slightest hint that Judaizers were attacking Paul's belief in the deity of Christ?

Isn't it enough that in John 8 Jesus’ Deity was attacked with stones from the Judaizing Pharisees? Jesus’ words shook the Judaizing foundations of the Pharisees.

We have plenty of evidence that Judaizers were concerned about abandoning circumcision, sacrifices in the Temple, abstaining from impure food, keeping the sabbath, etc.
Then, why were they not outraged about Paul teaching the deity of Christ, something that would shake the foundations of Judaism ?

In your view, what would be more important topic to debate: if the foreskin could remain intact, pork eaten, or if Christ was God?

Well, this is the only logical explanation I find: Paul never mentioned the Judaizers attacking his preaching of the Trinity because... Paul never preached it!

That was not from any lack of Paul preaching that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah) who is God over all.

(Rom 9:5) To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever.

By the time that Paul wrote his Epistles the 2 camps had pretty well solidified their encampments. The Judaizers were solidly Unitarians and the Christians were solidly Trinitarians.

 

[synergy]

I said in my post "This is why Jesus referred to God as a different person."
I didn't say "This is why Jesus referred to the Father as a different person", since we are not debating that.

Do you notice what you've done?
Your spirit automatically read "The Father" when your eyes, in fact, were reading the word "God".
All Trinitarians I have met do that. They can't help it. It is the Holy Spirit talking to them, to you, to us, from the bottom of our minds.

Jesus is indeed different than God, because God is the Father.

The New Testament Greek language, which is steeped in Philosophy (Nature, Person, etc…), allows one to fluidly shift the usage of the word "God" to mean either person or nature based on context. For example, the phrase "Jesus is God" negates the possibility that God means person and so it means nature. In other words, Jesus is God by nature. This is perfectly logical. Another example is your example: "Jesus Himself, who always referred to God as a different person". In this case that sentence uses God as a person so it's natural to assume that the term "God" is referring to a person, other than Jesus in this case, which is God the Father.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The New Testament Greek language, which is steeped in Philosophy (Nature, Person, etc…), allows one to fluidly shift the usage of the word "God" to mean either person or nature based on context.

Of course, because Greeks, being polytheists, used “ god” as a category where many personal beings could fit in... a nature that many could possess. From their perspective, there were many personal beings who qualified as god or goddess.
For a Jewish monotheist, though, there is no other god than God.
I invite you to think like a Jewish monotheist. Let me tell you why:

Jesus was a Jewish monotheist, who quoted the Shema, Israel, while presenting the most important of all commandments.
Paul was a Jewish monotheist, who considered that the title God belonged to one single Being: The Father

For there are those who are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, as there are many gods and many lords. But for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist. And there is one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (1 Cor 8:5-7)

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Any atheist can deny what God can do since they do not know God or acknowledge his ability. Then you take the lack of scriptural knowledge of God and use that lacking to try to use reductionistic human concepts to reject the testimony of scripture. If God were only a single "person" rather than Trinitarian in essence, your argument would make some sense.

God is presented throughout the Bible as a “Person”, not as a team, council, family or government. Not as an attribute.
Jesus presented God as a “Person”
God, in essence, is not Trinitarian, but One. Shema, Israel: YHWH Our God, YHWH is One.
So, my respectful invitation to you is to accept the Scriptural Testimony of the Scriptures.

Anyhow, how do you know what God can and cannot do? What knowledge of God do you claim to have apart from the testimony of the Christian scriptures?

A brain. God gave us a brain to think. We must use our brain when reading the Scriptures.
God cannot do evil. It would be against his nature.
God cannot die. It would be against his nature.
God cannot be more than One. It would be against his nature.

The testimony of Jesus is that Our Father is the Only and True God. (John 17:1-3)
I respectfully invite you to join Jesus in recognizing Our Father as the Only and True God.

Who do you know that was raised from the dead to testify to the accuracy of the message someone shared while alive on earth? It is only Christ who has been raised from the dead as the message of God first physically on earth and now in the heavens.

This Christ raised from the dead left you a message: “Go to My brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ”. ( John 20:17)

 

[Studyman]

Is Jesus a physical man in heaven right now with a real tangible body that has flesh and bones ? yes or no

I believe what is written.

1 Cor. 15: 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood "cannot inherit the kingdom of God"; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Does Jesus have the same body the disciples saw and touched that still has the marks from His crucifixion ? yes or no

1 John 3: 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

 

[Studyman]

Also, there were multiple Personal appearances of the Pre-Incarnate Word of God (Jesus) to OT Prophets. That clearly shows that the Pre-Incarnate Word of God was a Communicative Person who had all the attributes of a Person (Mind, Will, Individuality, etc...)

• 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
• 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,"

This proves that the Word of God (Jesus), who is Uncreated (John 1:3), cannot be just an ordinary man or even an angel. He is God.

He was also "With God", who the Jesus "of the Bible" says is the One True God that I am to worship.

The scriptures you posted doesn't make void His Own Words.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The Bible is FULL of references to good, holy, people.
God is the Ultimate Source of Good. That's why submitting your will to God's will, makes you good.
God declared Noah, another God's Messenger, "perfect" (Genesis 6:9). Other translations render "blameless".

Jesus required us to be perfect, just as the Only and True God, Your Father, is perfect.
Therefore be perfect, even as your Father who is in heaven is perfect. (Mathew 5:48)

So, God is Absolutely Good as God.
Jesus is good as Jesus.
Noah is good as Noah.
Pancho Frijoles is expected to be good as Pancho Frijoles.

Deflecting weasel words....

Jesus said very clearly that there are NONE that are good. Why not deal with the "NONE" word portion of that sentence. How would you like to "spin" that word?

Noah wasn't without spot or blemish. Jesus was the only one capable of meeting the requirement for an acceptable sacrifice that would impart Eternal Life to mankind.

You believe Jesus lied.

 

[praise_yeshua]

He was also "With God", who the Jesus "of the Bible" says is the One True God that I am to worship.

The scriptures you posted doesn't make void His Own Words.

Jesus left the Father. He became lower than the angels. In His humility, Jesus worshiped the Father in Empathy with us.

Not a single fact in that sentence is contrary to Jesus being God. If you believe it is, then explain why?

 

[praise_yeshua]

God is presented throughout the Bible as a “Person”, not as a team, council, family or government. Not as an attribute.
Jesus presented God as a “Person”
God, in essence, is not Trinitarian, but One. Shema, Israel: YHWH Our God, YHWH is One.
So, my respectful invitation to you is to accept the Scriptural Testimony of the Scriptures.

A brain. God gave us a brain to think. We must use our brain when reading the Scriptures.
God cannot do evil. It would be against his nature.
God cannot die. It would be against his nature.
God cannot be more than One. It would be against his nature.

The testimony of Jesus is that Our Father is the Only and True God. (John 17:1-3)
I respectfully invite you to join Jesus in recognizing Our Father as the Only and True God.

This Christ raised from the dead left you a message: “Go to My brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ”. ( John 20:17)

By what power do you expect to rise from the grave?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I believe what is written.

1 Cor. 15: 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood "cannot inherit the kingdom of God"; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.



1 John 3: 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

I must recognize that the way you reference these verses, they are contradictory to one another.

You're trying to say that flesh is impure, yet you must purify yourself.

Can I ask why you're creating this contradiction?

Flesh is weak. Not powerful. Flesh is limited. You're actually presenting a scenario where Christ ALONE is without spot or blemish.

I've found that Unitarians have a very hard time dealing with these facts. So much so that they ignore them. Jesus was more than just a man. If all God required was the death of a "good man" as you see it....

Then anyone of the descendants of Adam could have died for humanity.

 

[Studyman]

Jesus left the Father. He became lower than the angels. In His humility, Jesus worshiped the Father in Empathy with us.

Not a single fact in that sentence is contrary to Jesus being God. If you believe it is, then explain why?

Jesus was a man, not God. He said so Himself.

Matt. 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

And knowing the One True God, is Eternal life, at least according to the Jesus "of the Bible".

John 17: 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as "thou" hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

And Paul and I are of the same understanding on this point.

Eph. 4: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

This same Christ is, even now, sitting on the right hand of His Father, advocating between me and His Father.

He is my Lord, sent to me from His God and my God, to do the will of His Father, who is greater than HE. At least this is what the Jesus of the Bible teaches.

 

[synergy]

Of course, because Greeks, being polytheists, used “ god” as a category where many personal beings could fit in... a nature that many could possess. From their perspective, there were many personal beings who qualified as god or goddess.
For a Jewish monotheist, though, there is no other god than God.
I invite you to think like a Jewish monotheist. Let me tell you why:

Jesus was a Jewish monotheist, who quoted the Shema, Israel, while presenting the most important of all commandments.
Paul was a Jewish monotheist, who considered that the title God belonged to one single Being: The Father

If that's the case then answer me the following questions:

1. Why the creation, certification and widespread usage of the Greek Septuagint by Diaspora Jews? The Septuagint was created and authenticated by Alexandrian Jews and used throughout the Empire by Diaspora Jews.
2. Why were the Diaspora Jews elected to be dispersed throughout the Greek Eastern Empire by God Himself? Their primary language being Greek.
3. Why did the Apostles endorse the Greek Septuagint by overwhelmingly quoting from it?
4. Why did God allow the Greek language to be the Lingua Franca of the Eastern Roman Empire - the very language that the Gospel was communicated to the world?
5. Why did the Apostles select the Greek language to write their Epistles?
6. Why did the churches, that the Apostles bequeathed to us, built on services that were structured in the Greek language?
7. and on and on.....

Cults are formed when people start to 2nd guess God and the Apostles. Many cults have pounced on the Judaizing way of thinking to form their cults. The JWs for example have adopted many Judaizing concepts in their formation. For example, they ridicule the fact that God's name was written in Greek in the NT by the Apostles. The Calvinints have tossed out the human (humanistic) side of our salvation. Islam is an utter disaster and the Baha'i faith unfortunately has several of its roots still in it.

Does that mean that everyone needs to know Greek to understand the NT? Not necessarily. Language structures, nuances, and ways of thinking can be transposed across languages.

Of course, Greece had its pagan past but Christianity "baptised" the language so that it was made to be the vehicle for the spread of the Gospel.

For there are those who are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, as there are many gods and many lords. But for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist. And there is one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (1 Cor 8:5-7)

You need to read the Bible in its entirety. You can't just ignore verses like the ones I mentioned in entry #322 and cherry pick the ones you think promote your view.

As for 1 Cor 8:5-7:

1. The issue to begin with is "gods", Polytheism, not Trinitarianism. So right off the bat you're bringing in verses that have nothing to do with Trinitarianism. This is a typical cultist maneuver that tries to swoop down on people who are poor in language skills.
2. The original Greek had no commas in the sentence. The onus is on you to prove that the comma should be included as "one God, the Father" and not as "one God the Father".

 

[praise_yeshua]

Jesus was a man, not God. He said so Himself.

I said that Jesus was more than a man. That includes being a man. You're using the "1 + 1 = 1" equation. You're denying that God can be both ... GOD and man. My God has such power.

Matt. 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

And knowing the One True God, is Eternal life, at least according to the Jesus "of the Bible".

John 17: 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as "thou" hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

There is nothing in those references that denies the fact that Jesus was both man and God.

And Paul and I are of the same understanding on this point.

Eph. 4: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

This same Christ is, even now, sitting on the right hand of His Father, advocating between me and His Father.

Okay. Does the Father serve YOU? What has the Father done for YOU? Jesus is serving us. The Father is serving us. "Sitting on the righthand of God isn't a diminished position relative to Divinity/Deity.

It is EQUAL privilege. You're accepting the nonsense of how man made KINGS RULE.... God is not like that brother.

He is my Lord, sent to me from His God and my God, to do the will of His Father, who is greater than HE. At least this is what the Jesus of the Bible teaches.

In His role in humility, Jesus Christ was made lower. God has highly exalted Him and given Him a name which is above every name.

When you "name" God, you must use the name of Jesus Christ. His name is ABOVE every name. Whether it be things on earth or things in heaven....

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

You're not agreement with Paul at all here.

 

[civic]

I believe what is written.

1 Cor. 15: 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood "cannot inherit the kingdom of God"; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.



1 John 3: 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Those were yes or no questions nice deflecting. You love ambiguity.

 

[civic]

Jesus was a man, not God. He said so Himself.

Matt. 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

And knowing the One True God, is Eternal life, at least according to the Jesus "of the Bible".

John 17: 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as "thou" hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

And Paul and I are of the same understanding on this point.

Eph. 4: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

This same Christ is, even now, sitting on the right hand of His Father, advocating between me and His Father.

He is my Lord, sent to me from His God and my God, to do the will of His Father, who is greater than HE. At least this is what the Jesus of the Bible teaches.

You and Paul have nothing in common Concerning Jesus identity or the gospel since you deny His physical/bodily Resurrection, Ascension and 2nd Coming in the flesh.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You and Paul have nothing in common Concerning Jesus identity or the gospel since you deny His physical/bodily Resurrection, Ascension and 2nd Coming in the flesh.

I suppose Unitarians believe they'll soon sit at the right hand of God.

 

[Studyman]

I must recognize that the way you reference these verses, they are contradictory to one another.

You're trying to say that flesh is impure, yet you must purify yourself.

I appreciate your observations.

I'm posting Scriptures. I think you are misunderstanding them, if you believe they contradict one another. Can I ask you a question? "Is repentance from the heart a form of "purifying ourselves"? And if not, what is its purpose?

Can I ask why you're creating this contradiction?

I didn't create the Scriptures, I simply believe in them.

Flesh is weak. Not powerful. Flesh is limited. You're actually presenting a scenario where Christ ALONE is without spot or blemish.

Many Faithful humans, throughout the Holy Scriptures, performed great, even supernatural works as a Flesh and Blood mortal human. If the Spirit of God is in a man, this man has the great power of God. Jesus is a perfect example, in my view, of a flesh and blood mortal endowed with the Spirit of God. I don't believe HE is the only human to receive such power, based on what is written in the Holy Scriptures.

I've found that Unitarians have a very hard time dealing with these facts.

Just because you have an opinion, doesn't make your opinion a fact.

So much so that they ignore them. Jesus was more than just a man. If all God required was the death of a "good man" as you see it....

Again, please read my posts and address them. Don't put words in my mouth that I never said.

Then anyone of the descendants of Adam could have died for humanity.

Truly any mortal human, born of a woman, who lived his entire life in obedience to the commandments, Statutes, judgments and Laws of God, would have qualified as an unblemished sacrifice. The Jesus, of the Bible. was the only One who did. And I thank God for that.

 

[Studyman]

You and Paul have nothing in common Concerning Jesus identity or the gospel since you deny His physical/bodily Resurrection, Ascension and 2nd Coming in the flesh.

I denied nothing, I posted Scripture because I knew from experience with you, that it wouldn't matter what I said, you have already made your judgments.

It is true that Paul and I are not members of the religious sect of this world that you have adopted and are now promoting to others. You could always humble yourself just a smidgin, and actually discuss the Scriptures that I posted. But you choose not to. Nothing I can do about that.