Anti-trinitarianism Campaign

[synergy]

Nonsense.

Deny Biblical evidence all you want.

That means God spoke to them.

The Uncreated Word of God, who is God by nature, spoke to them. You're catching on!

It doesn't refer to a pre-existent being known as the Word coming to them and talking. You won't find a commentator on earth who agrees with your fringe opinion.

You already stated that "John 1:1-3 explicitly makes distinction between the Word and The God". So the Word is a separate entity that also exhibits all the Communicative attributes of a Person such as Mind, Will, Individuality, etc... Only Judaizers will deny that fact.

 

[Runningman]

Deny Biblical evidence all you want.

That's what you're doing.

The Uncreated Word of God, who is God by nature, spoke to them. You're catching on!

The Word came from God and is eternal life. Eternal life is a thing. See 1John 1:1-3

You already stated that "John 1:1-3 explicitly makes distinction between the Word and The God". So the Word is a separate entity that also exhibits all the Communicative attributes of a Person such as Mind, Will, Individuality, etc... Only Judaizers will deny that fact.

This is closer to what I believe, too. The Word is godly, but not God.

You're relying too heavily on Logos theology. The Word is only ever explicitly called a "he" in John 1 and never again throughout the rest of the Bible. The minority verse doesn't interpret the majority of verses. John 1's usage of personal pronouns is just personification. 1John 1:1-3 and the rest of the Bible's usage of non-personal pronouns for the Word or word of God inform the correct interpretation.

 

[mikesw]

What I find astounding/unbelievable is that I had to start a thread called the Eternal Son since there are a few so called Trinitarians on the forum questioning that God is Eternal as Father, Son, Holy Spirit. I believe I even tagged you in this thread along with some other Trinitarians posting in this thread.

That reminds me of some things I have seen lacking. One is the use of confessions and creeds in church gatherings. These aid as summaries and reminders of normal doctrines. The other is the teaching of critical doctrines. An overseer should have a teaching plan to identify topics, doctrines, and scriptures that will be covered in a year or many years. This does not have to be a strict schedule. In much of this, it can be explained that God is sharing ideas at a level that we can follow, even if something like God's eternal Son does not fully fit in our human models.

 

[synergy]

That's what you're doing.

The Word came from God and is eternal life. Eternal life is a thing. See 1John 1:1-3

Before you run away from John 1:1, there's still the fact that "the Word was God" that you need to address.

This is closer to what I believe, too. The Word is godly, but not God.

The Word was more than "godly", "the Word was God". Do you believe John 1:1 when it says "the Word was God"?

You're relying too heavily on Logos theology. The Word is only ever explicitly called a "he" in John 1 and never again throughout the rest of the Bible. The minority verse doesn't interpret the majority of verses. John 1's usage of personal pronouns is just personification.

I'm relying on Apostle John's writings. He employs an avalanche of the personal pronoun "he" to point to the Word who was God. If you want to disregard that fact then that's on you

1John 1:1-3 and the rest of the Bible's usage of non-personal pronouns for the Word or word of God inform the correct interpretation.

If you're implying that John’s understanding of the Word went from being a Person (ουτος in John 1:2) to a “thing”, you're dead wrong.

Here's how 1 John 1:1 also supports the Trinitarian view that the Word of God is a Person and not a thing:

Let's start by looking at the Greek version of 1 John 1:1. In particular, let's look at the first 2 Greek words ῞Ο ἦν that you claim refer to a “thing”.

1Jn 1:1 ῞Ο ἦν ἀπ᾿ ἀρχῆς, ὃ ἀκηκόαμεν, ὃ ἑωράκαμεν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς ἡμῶν, ὃ ἐθεασάμεθα καὶ αἱ χεῖρες ἡμῶν ἐψηλάφησαν, περὶ τοῦ λόγου τῆς ζωῆς·

The phrase “ὁ ἦν” is found in multiple other locations (see below) and never once is it considered a neuter pronoun:

Rev_1:4 ᾿Ιωάννης ταῖς ἑπτὰ ἐκκλησίαις ταῖς ἐν τῇ ᾿Ασίᾳ· χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν ἑπτὰ πνευμάτων, ἃ ἐνώπιον τοῦ θρόνου αὐτοῦ,
Rev_1:8 ᾿Εγώ εἰμι τὸ Α καὶ τὸ Ω, λέγει Κύριος ὁ Θεός, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ παντοκράτωρ.
Rev_4:8 καὶ τὰ τέσσαρα ζῷα, ἓν καθ᾿ ἓν αὐτῶν ἔχων ἀνὰ πτέρυγας ἕξ, κυκλόθεν καὶ ἔσωθεν γέμουσιν ὀφθαλμῶν, καὶ ἀνάπαυσιν οὐκ ἔχουσιν ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτὸς λέγοντες· ἅγιος, ἅγιος, ἅγιος Κύριος ὁ Θεὸς ὁ παντοκράτωρ, ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος.
Rev_11:17 λέγοντες· εὐχαριστοῦμέν σοι, Κύριε ὁ Θεὸς ὁ παντοκράτωρ, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὅτι εἴληφας τὴν δύναμίν σου τὴν μεγάλην καὶ ἐβασίλευσας,
Rev_16:5 καὶ ἤκουσα τοῦ ἀγγέλου τῶν ὑδάτων λέγοντος· δίκαιος εἶ, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν, ὁ ὅσιος, ὅτι ταῦτα ἔκρινας·

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia. Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is coming; and from the seven spirits which are before His throne;
Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says the Lord, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
Rev 4:8 And each one of the four living creatures had six wings about him, and within being full of eyes. And they had no rest day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God, the Almighty, who was and is and is to come.
Rev 11:17 saying, We thank You, O Lord God Almighty, who are, and who was, and who is coming, because You took Your great power and reigned.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.

Notice the usage of personal pronouns each and every time.

 

[Runningman]

Before you run away from John 1:1, there's still the fact that "the Word was God" that you need to address.

Don't presume that I would ever try to run away from John 1:1. I am camped out there and enjoying my view of the field. It still says The God that the Word was with is the definitive God. The way definite articles work in English and Greek is to show distinction from one person or thing from another.

Don't count on this discussion budging even the slightest from this point until you atleast to decide to dignify and validate this truth.

The Word was more than "godly", "the Word was God". Do you believe John 1:1 when it says "the Word was God"?

The Word isn't The God though. Means the Word isn't Lord God Almighty. The Word is also not a god since there is no biblical precedent for such a thing.

Theos meaning "godly" is fully supported by Scripture and is a valid understanding of "god with The God" there is no such thing as God with God anywhere else in the Bible. So the point you seem to be trying to made is unreprecedented and unScriptural. i.e., God isn't with God without precedent, abruptly, then never with God again.

Theos can mean godly:

2Peter 1:3
"His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness."

2Peter 1:4
"That you may become partakers of the divine nature."

I'm relying on Apostle John's writings. He employs an avalanche of the personal pronoun "he" to point to the Word who was God. If you want to disregard that fact then that's on you

If you're implying that John’s understanding of the Word went from being a Person (ουτος in John 1:2) to a “thing”, you're dead wrong.

Here's how 1 John 1:1 also supports the Trinitarian view that the Word of God is a Person and not a thing:

Let's start by looking at the Greek version of 1 John 1:1. In particular, let's look at the first 2 Greek words ῞Ο ἦν that you claim refer to a “thing”.

1Jn 1:1 ῞Ο ἦν ἀπ᾿ ἀρχῆς, ὃ ἀκηκόαμεν, ὃ ἑωράκαμεν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς ἡμῶν, ὃ ἐθεασάμεθα καὶ αἱ χεῖρες ἡμῶν ἐψηλάφησαν, περὶ τοῦ λόγου τῆς ζωῆς·

The phrase “ὁ ἦν” is found in multiple other locations (see below) and never once is it considered a neuter pronoun:

Rev_1:4 ᾿Ιωάννης ταῖς ἑπτὰ ἐκκλησίαις ταῖς ἐν τῇ ᾿Ασίᾳ· χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν ἑπτὰ πνευμάτων, ἃ ἐνώπιον τοῦ θρόνου αὐτοῦ,
Rev_1:8 ᾿Εγώ εἰμι τὸ Α καὶ τὸ Ω, λέγει Κύριος ὁ Θεός, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ παντοκράτωρ.
Rev_4:8 καὶ τὰ τέσσαρα ζῷα, ἓν καθ᾿ ἓν αὐτῶν ἔχων ἀνὰ πτέρυγας ἕξ, κυκλόθεν καὶ ἔσωθεν γέμουσιν ὀφθαλμῶν, καὶ ἀνάπαυσιν οὐκ ἔχουσιν ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτὸς λέγοντες· ἅγιος, ἅγιος, ἅγιος Κύριος ὁ Θεὸς ὁ παντοκράτωρ, ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος.
Rev_11:17 λέγοντες· εὐχαριστοῦμέν σοι, Κύριε ὁ Θεὸς ὁ παντοκράτωρ, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὅτι εἴληφας τὴν δύναμίν σου τὴν μεγάλην καὶ ἐβασίλευσας,
Rev_16:5 καὶ ἤκουσα τοῦ ἀγγέλου τῶν ὑδάτων λέγοντος· δίκαιος εἶ, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν, ὁ ὅσιος, ὅτι ταῦτα ἔκρινας·

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia. Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is coming; and from the seven spirits which are before His throne;
Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says the Lord, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
Rev 4:8 And each one of the four living creatures had six wings about him, and within being full of eyes. And they had no rest day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God, the Almighty, who was and is and is to come.
Rev 11:17 saying, We thank You, O Lord God Almighty, who are, and who was, and who is coming, because You took Your great power and reigned.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.

Notice the usage of personal pronouns each and every time.

None of these assign personal pronouns to the Word. You will not find it outside of John 1 nor mentioned by any other Biblical writer.

 

[synergy]

Don't presume that I would ever try to run away from John 1:1. I am camped out there and enjoying my view of the field. It still says The God that the Word was with is the definitive God. The way definite articles work in English and Greek is to show distinction from one person or thing from another.

Don't count on this discussion budging even the slightest from this point until you atleast to decide to dignify and validate this truth.

The Word isn't The God though. Means the Word isn't Lord God Almighty. The Word is also not a god since there is no biblical precedent for such a thing.

Theos meaning "godly" is fully supported by Scripture and is a valid understanding of "god with The God" there is no such thing as God with God anywhere else in the Bible. So the point you seem to be trying to made is unreprecedented and unScriptural. i.e., God isn't with God without precedent, abruptly, then never with God again.

Theos can mean godly.

2Peter 1:3
"His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness."

2Peter 1:4
"That you may become partakers of the divine nature."

You're conflating God with godliness and making a mess of things. Only God is God, not people. To say otherwise is to fall into Mormon Deification.

None of these assign personal pronouns to the Word. You will not find it outside of John 1 nor mentioned by any other Biblical writer.

So you want to disregard Greek grammar on the feeble basis that the term "Word" was not explicitly used? What would you say about that which John literally witnessed in Rev 19:11-16 that contains an avalanche of personal pronouns for the Word of God:

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

 

[Runningman]

You're conflating God with godliness and making a mess of things. Only God is God, not people. To say otherwise is to fall into Mormon Deification.

The Word isn't The God though as John 1:1-3 explicitly says.

John 1:1
En archē ēn ho Logos kai ho Logos ēn pros ton Theon kai Theos ēn ho Logos
In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and God was the Word.

John 1:2
Houtos ēn en archē pros ton Theon
He was in [the] beginning with the God.

John 1:3
panta di’ autou egeneto kai chōris autou egeneto oude hen ho gegonen
All things through Him came into being, and without Him came into being, not even one [thing] that has come into being.

So you want to disregard Greek grammar on the feeble basis that the term "Word" was not explicitly used? What would you say about that which John literally witnessed in Rev 19:11-16 that contains an avalanche of personal pronouns for the Word of God:

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 19:11-16 isn't about the Word and it isn't about Jesus. Look here: "He had a name written that no one knew except Himself." So you believe the Word can conceal information from the Father? It says no one else knows except himself.

 

[mikesw]

The Word isn't The God though as John 1:1-3 explicitly says.

John 1:1
En archē ēn ho Logos kai ho Logos ēn pros ton Theon kai Theos ēn ho Logos
In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and God was the Word.

John 1:2
Houtos ēn en archē pros ton Theon
He was in [the] beginning with the God.

John 1:3
panta di’ autou egeneto kai chōris autou egeneto oude hen ho gegonen
All things through Him came into being, and without Him came into being, not even one [thing] that has come into being.



Revelation 19:11-16 isn't about the Word and it isn't about Jesus. Look here: "He had a name written that no one knew except Himself." So you believe the Word can conceal information from the Father? It says no one else knows except himself.

Great. More evidence of failure of unitarians to understand scripture