Salvation and Unitarians

[Pancho Frijoles]

Also, notice how the Angel of the Lord calls Himself “the God of your father…”

That Angel also declared that He is the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ So, there is more than just a typical Angel here. Do you seriously what to challenge these statements?

The Angel of YWHV is not talking about Himself !! He is speaking on behalf of YWHV.
That’s precisely the point of being a Messenger (Angel) of YHWH. To speak and act in representation of God.

But again, if you think the Jesus was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, read Acts 3:13

God cannot beget Himself, send Himself to the world, raise Himself from the dead, present Himself as the Father of Himself and the Son of Himself, mediate before Himself as intercessor and judge at the same time, worship Himself and deliver up the Kingdom to Himself.
That would make the Bible a collection of absurdities.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no Savior.

If there is no other savior but God, why the Bible calls Jehoahaz a savior?

But Jehoahaz appeased the Lord, and the Lord listened to him. For He saw the oppression of Israel, because the king of Aram oppressed them. So the Lord gave Israel a savior, so that they got out from under the hand of Aram. Then the children of Israel dwelt in their tents as before. (2 Kings 13:4-6)

 

[synergy]

We are discussing the specific words of John 8:58, because you have chosen to discuss that.
I can gladly share with you my views of the names you mention (eg Son of God) in other posts.

You are claiming that the words “I am” of Jesus in John 8:58 prove He is the God of the God of the OT…. but not only that. You go still further, claiming that Jesus “explicitly” stated to be the God of the OT by saying those words.

Was the “I am who I am”, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Yes.
Did Peter considered Jesus to be the God of Abraham, Isaac or Jacob? No.

So, the thesis about John 8:28 proving Jesus is the God of Israel has been refuted.

As I stated before, Jesus being called God or Son of God are both true. That is Triniitarianism. You are falsely making it an either-or situation when it's not. Peter is being more definitive in that he is talking about the 2nd Person of the Trinity when he says Son of God. I understand that the term sons of God has been used previously for angels which is why Heb 1 goes out of its way to make it clear that Jesus is not an angelic son of God.

Then, who is the “I am” that Jesus is?
The one Jesus has been saying “since the beginning” and across chapter 8: the one sent by God, the one who speaks and does what God tells Him to speak and do.

Yes, Jesus is the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

Which Jesus is not, according to Peter in Acts 3, and according to the teachings of Jesus Himself, who always refered to God as a different person.

That's because there are 3 Persons in the Trinity.

 

[synergy]

The Angel of YWHV is not talking about Himself !! He is speaking on behalf of YWHV.
That’s precisely the point of being a Messenger (Angel) of YHWH. To speak and act in representation of God.

But again, if you think the Jesus was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, read Acts 3:13

All Messengers preface their announcements with phrases like "Thus says the Lord..." to clearly identify themselves as Prophets or Representatives of one form or another. That was not done here. So your theory is making the Angel of the Lord out to be an Imposter. Do you really want to go down that route?

God cannot beget Himself, send Himself to the world, raise Himself from the dead, present Himself as the Father of Himself and the Son of Himself, mediate before Himself as intercessor and judge at the same time, worship Himself and deliver up the Kingdom to Himself.
That would make the Bible a collection of absurdities.

It's not absurd when you realize the truth of the Trinity. It all makes sense when you realize that God is 3 Persons.

If there is no other savior but God, why the Bible calls Jehoahaz a savior?

But Jehoahaz appeased the Lord, and the Lord listened to him. For He saw the oppression of Israel, because the king of Aram oppressed them. So the Lord gave Israel a savior, so that they got out from under the hand of Aram. Then the children of Israel dwelt in their tents as before. (2 Kings 13:4-6)

You need to understand that since God is Spirit then the Salvation that Isaiah 54:11 is emphasizing is Spiritual.

So in light of Isaiah 43:11, if Jesus is not God then our Spiritual Salvation is in deep deep trouble. I guess the Baha'i Islamic religion couldn't care less about this fact. Proceed at your own risk.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

All Messengers preface their announcements with phrases like "Thus says the Lord..." to clearly identify themselves as Prophets or Representatives of one form or another. That was not done here. So your theory is making the Angel of the Lord out to be an Imposter. Do you really want to go down that route?

Yes, I want to go down that route.
Why would an inspired author call someone a Messenger of God if such being is God?
So, either the Angel of YHWH is an Angel, or it is not.

It's not absurd when you realize the truth of the Trinity. It all makes sense when you realize that God is 3 Persons.

Your argument is as circular as saying that the Flat Earth is not absurd once I realize the truth about the Flat Earth.

You need to understand that since God is Spirit then the Salvation that Isaiah 54:11 is emphasizing is Spiritual.

The audience of Isaiah conceived salvation in both spiritual and material terms. Israel fell under their enemies because of spiritual problems, amd that is a clear teaching of the Scriptures.

So in light of Isaiah 43:11, if Jesus is not God then our Spiritual Salvation is in deep deep trouble.

No trouble at all.
No Jew in history has expected the Messiah to be God in order to be the Messiah. That includes Jews such as Jesus and Peter.

That’s why Jesus does not claim to be God, but the one sent y God.
If what you say were true, we would find Jesus insisting in his credentials as God. What we find, though, is Jesus presenting over and over his credentials as one who only speaks and does what God asks Him to speak and do.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

As I stated before, Jesus being called God or Son of God are both true. That is Triniitarianism.

I know that is Trinitarism. That’s why Trinitarism is absurd.
We all hold at least one absurd belief. Fortunately, God loves us all the same.

You are falsely making it an either-or situation when it's not.

It is an either-or situation.
I’m not making it up.

Peter is being more definitive in that he is talking about the 2nd Person of the Trinity when he says Son of God.

No, Peter is not. Peter is a monotheistic Jew who has recognized the Messiah. Peter has no idea whatsoever of a Trinity. Not before Pentecost, not after Pentecost.
Peter continues to worship the True and Only God: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The same God Jesus worshiped.

 

[Studyman]

Good. Something to work with... I hope. I wrote my last response to this thread before I read this post. Thank you for explaining.

I can honestly say that I believe that there have been many Christians that didn't understand the complex nature of the doctrine of the Trinity but found value in Jesus Christ and His death. I would classify these people as potentially Christians where other Unitarians have issues relative to their Eternal destiny.
I disagree with your conclusions here but I am certainly willing to deal with the individual beliefs you've expressed above.

The Holy Scriptures warn throughout, about religions of this world who profess to know God, and the idolatry of creating images of God after the likeness of anything, including man. To deny or imply that these warning don't apply in today's world is a spiritually dangerous position in my view. We are warned about "another Jesus" by a God who knows the future. It seems prudent to take heed and be on the lookout for these images.

Trinitarians wrestle with disagreeing on some of these issues. One thing they do not disagree with is the fact that Jesus Christ is God in context of Divinity/Deity and share the same Character with one another. (Character is my classification here. I see "Character" as all inclusive distinction that all the members of the Trinity share in Unity).

I am not a "trinitarian" and therefore do not study or share their religious philosophy.

Eph. 4: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Not only did a human man die in Jesus Christ but Divinity tasted death in Jesus Christ. I believe I can convince you of the necessity of Divinity in Christ in relationship to "Eternal Value".

Talk about "Skin in the game".... Try tasting death (as God) for humanity. You get REAL and meaningful empathy coming forth from God toward man. Not some distant relationship with meaningless circumstances to empathize with humanity.

God tasting death for US......... What manner of love brother. What more can we ask for?

God, by very definition, cannot die, cannot sin, and has no enemies. But Jesus wasn't God, He was a mortal human, He fought temptations with the Armor of God and HIS Sword and overcame. The popular religious philosophy that Jesus overcame because HE was God, and not a Faithful Mortal Son diminishes His Sacrifice and effort, in my view.

It is akin to a Coach of a sport whose son was included on the team. But the Coach gave his son performance enhancing drugs that were withheld from all other players. Then, when his son outperformed all the others, the coach gave him the trophy and glorified him over all the other players.

I refuse to see God in this light, which implies that all the suffering, temptations and death of the Christ was all staged, a show, Hollywood, because HE was not a mortal man at all, but immortal God.

Christ's human body was raised from the dead. Though Christ was judged for humanity, He was not damned for us. Such a death is more than just physical. He laid down His physical body for us and emotionally experienced the suffering therein involving his humanity.

Yet, you must at least accept that never a mere man had immortality.....

1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Seems like you see Christ as Master? Can you confirm? Do you believe the Father would tell you to disobey a mistaken Christ?

I believe God raised His Mortal Son from the dead and gave Him immortality and great Glory. And that this man became the first fruit, the first mortal human to receive immortality. He is truly my Lord and Savior, and as High Priest, is an advocate between me and God His Father, even today.

He teaches me how to walk, how to pray, the importance of the Law and Prophets, and how to love God and how to love others.

And He teaches me who to worship and how to worship. And HE does these things, not through this world's religious sects and businesses, but through the Holy Scriptures that HIS Father and my Father Inspired "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the "man" of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works"

 

[Studyman]

Thank you for finally beginning to reveal your beliefs. You say Jesus was a man who was with His Father before the world began. What man can preexist before the world began and not possess a Divine God nature?

Paul said;

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them "God" was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

I don't believe at this time this Christ was a mortal human being, rather a "Spiritual Rock" who became a mortal man in the person of Jesus, when His Father determined the Time was right.

 

[Studyman]

He speaks a lot about Judaic customs so he might be a Judaizer but not to the extreme extent as Jer15, thank goodness.

It was the custom of the Jews to reject God's Judgments and transgress His Commandments. But the Custom of the Faithful in the Bible, including the Jesus "of the Bible" was to "Yield Himself" a servant to obey God.

So in your religion, what is a "Judaizer"? A man who professes to know God, but walk as children of disobedience in the religious traditions and doctrines of this world God placed us in?

Or a man like Jesus, who "Yield's Himself" to God in obedience to Him, regardless of the cost?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Eph. 4: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

You're misapplying this verse to your own theological view. How about we start with the first phrase

"There is one body".

Do you have a body? Do animals have a body? Do terrestrial and celestial bodies differ? We know they do.

There is context to this statement. Context you're ignoring. This verse does not prove your claims that there is only one God in the Father alone. The fact you believe Jesus Christ is mortal is an offense to Gospel of Jesus Christ.

What mortal man rules another? Do you worship mortal men?

I believe there is hope for you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It was the custom of the Jews to reject God's Judgments and transgress His Commandments. But the Custom of the Faithful in the Bible, including the Jesus "of the Bible" was to "Yield Himself" a servant to obey God.

So in your religion, what is a "Judaizer"? A man who professes to know God, but walk as children of disobedience in the religious traditions and doctrines of this world God placed us in?

Or a man like Jesus, who "Yield's Himself" to God in obedience to Him, regardless of the cost?

There is none good but God. Do you remember those words? You're making the sacrifice of Jesus into a tainted offering. Do you remember the requirements of the law?

Without spot or blemish.

 

[synergy]

It was the custom of the Jews to reject God's Judgments and transgress His Commandments. But the Custom of the Faithful in the Bible, including the Jesus "of the Bible" was to "Yield Himself" a servant to obey God.

So in your religion, what is a "Judaizer"? A man who professes to know God, but walk as children of disobedience in the religious traditions and doctrines of this world God placed us in?

Or a man like Jesus, who "Yield's Himself" to God in obedience to Him, regardless of the cost?

Judaizers are those who refuse to recognize the revelations and abrogations that Christ and the Apostles elucidated, as recorded in the NT. The Jerusalm Council, the Uncreated Word of God Person, the "I Am" OT God name of Jesus, the Personhood of the Holy Spirit, no difference between Gentile and Jew, the New Covenant inclusion of Gentiles, the Old Covenant is becoming obsolete, growing old, and is ready to vanish away, etc..... are all part of an endless list of NT revelations and obrogations that Judaizers will refuse to fully recognize.

 

[civic]

The Holy Scriptures warn throughout, about religions of this world who profess to know God, and the idolatry of creating images of God after the likeness of anything, including man. To deny or imply that these warning don't apply in today's world is a spiritually dangerous position in my view. We are warned about "another Jesus" by a God who knows the future. It seems prudent to take heed and be on the lookout for these images.



I am not a "trinitarian" and therefore do not study or share their religious philosophy.

Eph. 4: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.




God, by very definition, cannot die, cannot sin, and has no enemies. But Jesus wasn't God, He was a mortal human, He fought temptations with the Armor of God and HIS Sword and overcame. The popular religious philosophy that Jesus overcame because HE was God, and not a Faithful Mortal Son diminishes His Sacrifice and effort, in my view.

It is akin to a Coach of a sport whose son was included on the team. But the Coach gave his son performance enhancing drugs that were withheld from all other players. Then, when his son outperformed all the others, the coach gave him the trophy and glorified him over all the other players.

I refuse to see God in this light, which implies that all the suffering, temptations and death of the Christ was all staged, a show, Hollywood, because HE was not a mortal man at all, but immortal God.



I believe God raised His Mortal Son from the dead and gave Him immortality and great Glory. And that this man became the first fruit, the first mortal human to receive immortality. He is truly my Lord and Savior, and as High Priest, is an advocate between me and God His Father, even today.

He teaches me how to walk, how to pray, the importance of the Law and Prophets, and how to love God and how to love others.

And He teaches me who to worship and how to worship. And HE does these things, not through this world's religious sects and businesses, but through the Holy Scriptures that HIS Father and my Father Inspired "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:That the "man" of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works"

Is Jesus a physical man in heaven right now with a real tangible body that has flesh and bones ? yes or no

Does Jesus have the same body the disciples saw and touched that still has the marks from His crucifixion ? yes or no

 

[synergy]

Paul said;

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them "God" was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

I don't believe at this time this Christ was a mortal human being, rather a "Spiritual Rock" who became a mortal man in the person of Jesus, when His Father determined the Time was right.

Also, there were multiple Personal appearances of the Pre-Incarnate Word of God (Jesus) to OT Prophets. That clearly shows that the Pre-Incarnate Word of God was a Communicative Person who had all the attributes of a Person (Mind, Will, Individuality, etc...)

• 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
• 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,"

This proves that the Word of God (Jesus), who is Uncreated (John 1:3), cannot be just an ordinary man or even an angel. He is God.

 

[synergy]

Yes, I want to go down that route.
Why would an inspired author call someone a Messenger of God if such being is God?
So, either the Angel of YHWH is an Angel, or it is not.

Anyone can be a Messenger, a man, an angel, God Himself. No one nature or person has a lock on who can be a Messenger.

Your argument is as circular as saying that the Flat Earth is not absurd once I realize the truth about the Flat Earth.

They're not the same case. The Trinity eliminated all your stated objections and answered all your questions. The Flat Earth concept dissolves in front of all the orbital pictures we've taken of the Earth.

The audience of Isaiah conceived salvation in both spiritual and material terms. Israel fell under their enemies because of spiritual problems, amd that is a clear teaching of the Scriptures.

Of course the physical is included. What I was emphasizing is the spiritual side when I said that "the Salvation that Isaiah 54:11 is emphasizing is Spiritual." Your Baha'i islamic view might not care about the spiritual side so proceed at your own risk.

No trouble at all.
No Jew in history has expected the Messiah to be God in order to be the Messiah. That includes Jews such as Jesus and Peter.

I'm sure Isaiah was a Jew. He wrote in Isaiah 9:16 the following:

(Isa 9:6) For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Peter, John, and Paul wrote the following.

(2 Pet 1:1) Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

(Titus 2:13) waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

(Rom 9:5) To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

There are many more: John 8:58, Rev 1:8, John 1:1, 1 Tim 3:16, Matt 1:23, John 20:28-29, etc...

Conclusion: The Judaizing aspirations of the Baha'i Islamic faith has been nailed to the Cross.

That’s why Jesus does not claim to be God, but the one sent y God.

If what you say were true, we would find Jesus insisting in his credentials as God. What we find, though, is Jesus presenting over and over his credentials as one who only speaks and does what God asks Him to speak and do.

Unless you've removed John 8:58 from your Bible, you can easily see that Jesus insists on being both the "I Am" OT God and on following instructions from God the Father.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Anyone can be a Messenger, a man, an angel, God Himself. No one nature or person has a lock on who can be a Messenger.

They're not the same case. The Trinity eliminated all your stated objections and answered all your questions.

The Trinity has not eliminated YOUR objections, nor answered all YOUR questions.
It is not me the only being on the planet with capacity for logical thinking. You, and our readers, are capable of logical thinking.

The Trinity cannot answer why A is different than B and still A is B.
It cannot answer why the Bible presents insistingly A as different to B, if A is B.

Unless you've removed John 8:58 from your Bible, you can easily see that Jesus insists on being both the "I Am" OT God and on following instructions from God the Father.

Another logical contradiction.
If Jesus is God, he does not need to follow the instructions from God.

So, my friend, and @civic, and @praise_yeshua I encourage you all to notice how attempting to uphold the doctrine of the Trinity just leads you all to accumulate contradictions upon contradictions. This is not your fault. It is the doctrine of the Trinity who is faulty, and that's why you can't explain it, believe it, or live for it.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Anyone can be a Messenger, a man, an angel, God Himself.

God cannot be a Messenger of God.
God cannot be an Intercessor before God.
God cannot beget God.
God cannot send God to the world.
God cannot raise God from the dead.
God cannot deliver up the Kingdom to God.
God cannot sit at the right of God.

I encourage you, @civic and @praise_yeshua to stop the accumulation of logical contradictions, accept that you believe in the Trinity by faith, by choice, and that you embrace your Unitarian Christian neighbors (including @Studyman and @Peterlag) as brothers and sisters, saved by the same undeserved grace of God.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Judaizers are those who refuse to recognize the revelations and abrogations that Christ and the Apostles elucidated, as recorded in the NT. The Jerusalm Council, the Uncreated Word of God Person, the "I Am" OT God name of Jesus, the Personhood of the Holy Spirit, no difference between Gentile and Jew, the New Covenant inclusion of Gentiles, the Old Covenant is becoming obsolete, growing old, and is ready to vanish away, etc..... are all part of an endless list of NT revelations and obrogations that Judaizers will refuse to fully recognize.

It is interesting that you bring the topic of Judaizers.
Why don't we have in any of the epistles of Paul the slightest hint that Judaizers were attacking Paul's belief in the deity of Christ?
We have plenty of evidence that Judaizers were concerned about abandoning circumcision, sacrifices in the Temple, abstaining from impure food, keeping the sabbath, etc.
Then, why were they not outraged about Paul teaching the deity of Christ, something that would shake the foundations of Judaism ?

In your view, what would be more important topic to debate: if the foreskin could remain intact, pork eaten, or if Christ was God?

Well, this is the only logical explanation I find: Paul never mentioned the Judaizers attacking his preaching of the Trinity because... Paul never preached it!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The God of our fathers hath CHOSEN Paul? so, the God of our fathers is the "LORD", God right?

101G.

Hi, 101G

My apologies for answering you so late.
I thank you for your thoughtful post and respectful tone.

In regard of who chose Paul, we could make the very same question about Thomas, Andreas, Bartholomew or any of the disciples.
Who chose them? God, or Jesus?

You could make the same question about you.
Who called you from the prison of sin to the light of love? Was it God? Was it Jesus? Was it Reverend Taylor (or whoever presented the gospel to you)?
Who chose your wife? Was it God? Was it Jesus? Was it you? Was it her?

God is the Ultimate Source of All Good: salvation, grace, forgiveness, etc. but He operates towards humans through instruments.
Jesus is an instrument of God. He declared to speak and do the things His Father (the Only and True God) asked Him to speak and do.

So, if God called you through a beautiful book written by Pastor Jones, you could verily say "God called me", "Jesus called me", or "Pastor Jones called me". All statements will be true, inasmuch as each of them addresses a given level of agency.

Hope this helps to clarify. Please let me know if you would like more discussion about the issue of direct and indirect agencies.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

There is none good but God. Do you remember those words? You're making the sacrifice of Jesus into a tainted offering. Do you remember the requirements of the law?

Without spot or blemish.

The Bible is FULL of references to good, holy, people.
God is the Ultimate Source of Good. That's why submitting your will to God's will, makes you good.
God declared Noah, another God's Messenger, "perfect" (Genesis 6:9). Other translations render "blameless".

Jesus required us to be perfect, just as the Only and True God, Your Father, is perfect.
Therefore be perfect, even as your Father who is in heaven is perfect. (Mathew 5:48)

So, God is Absolutely Good as God.
Jesus is good as Jesus.
Noah is good as Noah.
Pancho Frijoles is expected to be good as Pancho Frijoles.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

That's because there are 3 Persons in the Trinity.

I said in my post "This is why Jesus referred to God as a different person."
I didn't say "This is why Jesus referred to the Father as a different person", since we are not debating that.

Do you notice what you've done?
Your spirit automatically read "The Father" when your eyes, in fact, were reading the word "God".
All Trinitarians I have met do that. They can't help it. It is the Holy Spirit talking to them, to you, to us, from the bottom of our minds.

Jesus is indeed different than God, because God is the Father.