He speaks a lot about Judaic customs so he might be a Judaizer but not to the extreme extent as Jer15, thank goodness.
Salvation and Unitarians
- Thread starter praise_yeshua
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Why not just answer my questions, instead of ignoring them, and deflecting.
I'm just following your line of thinking/reasoning unless you have issues with that? If you want me to break out of your line of thinking/reasoning, we can do that.
I don't spend much time trying to understand the terms this world's religions use to judge or label each other as they compete for members to fill the seats of their manmade shrines of worship, whose doctrines vary according to the name above their door. So honestly, I don't know their definitions of "Trinitarian" or "Unitarian" or other labels they create to judge others. I believe "ALL" that is written, and I strive to study and understand Every Word that proceeds from the mouth "of God", so that I might follow the Instructions of my Lord and Savior, and my Head, to "Live By" them.
I believe the Christ of the Bible, the Rock of Israel, risked His Immortality, risked His Life to save me from the death my choices had incurred on me, for knowing what God told me not to do, but doing them anyway. A behavior for which I am eternally sorry about, given the fact that God gave me an existence. Without Him I wouldn't even exist, and this is a big deal for me personally.
There is another Jesus being promoted by the religions of this world that didn't lay down his life for anyone, that didn't risk anything for anyone. That didn't "strive against sin", that wasn't really tempted "in all ways as his brethren", because He was an immortal god and therefore had nothing to lose, nothing to fear, no skin in the game whatsoever, as a god cannot sin, cannot die, and cannot fear. I don't believe in this Jesus.
This Jesus is very popular, and promoted by "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord in the religions of this world God placed me in. I'm placing my Faith/trust/belief in the God of the Bible, like the Jesus "of the Bible" did, who was a man, and who humbled Himself in obedience to God His Father regardless of the religions of this world that surrounded Him. And for His believe in His Father, and for laying down His Life for others and giving others His Father's Words, HE was killed. But His Father, a Just God, raised Him from the dead, and He was granted immortality again, like HE had before, when HE was with His Father before the world began, and HE became the First fruits of all other humans who would strive to be like Him, AKA "Christlike, AKA "Christians".
And I believe HE is, even now, an advocate between me and His Father, a truth of which I am most humbled and very happy about.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
May I ask what value is found in the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ in your theology?
Thanks
It seems a definition of "Christian" might be in order. You imply that only those who adopt your religious philosophies, is a Christian. The Calvinist promotes the same as you, regarding their philosophies.
I advocate that a man listens to the Christ "of the Bible", and His Father and my Father, and then become "Doers" of His Sayings, and not hearers only. But that would mean I don't need your manmade shrines of worship, your u-tube videos, or the image of God you have adopted. That kind of belief would be pretty bad for the bottom line of this world's religions, if the masses caught on.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Good. Something to work with... I hope. I wrote my last response to this thread before I read this post. Thank you for explaining.
I can honestly say that I believe that there have been many Christians that didn't understand the complex nature of the doctrine of the Trinity but found value in Jesus Christ and His death. I would classify these people as potentially Christians where other Unitarians have issues relative to their Eternal destiny.
I disagree with your conclusions here but I am certainly willing to deal with the individual beliefs you've expressed above.
Trinitarians wrestle with disagreeing on some of these issues. One thing they do not disagree with is the fact that Jesus Christ is God in context of Divinity/Deity and share the same Character with one another. (Character is my classification here. I see "Character" as all inclusive distinction that all the members of the Trinity share in Unity).
Not only did a human man die in Jesus Christ but Divinity tasted death in Jesus Christ. I believe I can convince you of the necessity of Divinity in Christ in relationship to "Eternal Value".
Talk about "Skin in the game".... Try tasting death (as God) for humanity. You get REAL and meaningful empathy coming forth from God toward man. Not some distant relationship with meaningless circumstances to empathize with humanity.
God tasting death for US......... What manner of love brother. What more can we ask for?
Christ's human body was raised from the dead. Though Christ was judged for humanity, He was not damned for us. Such a death is more than just physical. He laid down His physical body for us and emotionally experienced the suffering therein involving his humanity.
Yet, you must at least accept that never a mere man had immortality.....
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Seems like you see Christ as Master? Can you confirm? Do you believe the Father would tell you to disobey a mistaken Christ?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Theophany is a pre-Calvary appearance of God in a bodily form.
In the KJV you will notice the appeal to the "The Angel of the Lord" at times....
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
My friend, I have never attacked anyone in this Forum.
If you have felt attacked by me, then that is a big self-defeat for me and I apologize sincerely.
All Christians are my brothers, and all of them will be enjoying the presence of our God and Father.
Believing or not believing in the Trinity has no connection whatsoever with our closeness to God, or our salvation.
The whole purpose of a debate on the Trinity is to make you aware that people who believe different are also rational, love Scripture, love Jesus, and are as dependent as you on the infinite mercy of the Most Compassionate.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
By "that" I refer to the thesis that Jesus claimed that unless we believe He is God, the God of Israel, our sins will not be forgiven.
OK, my friend. I'll look for the post.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I guess it means that, in this context, it is the person who you obey and are loyal to, over all other persons that compete for your obedience and loyalty.
Jesus does not compete with the commands of God: Jesus spoke and did what God commanded Him to speak and do.
So, obeying Jesus is like obeying God. Fighting Jesus is fighting God.
This is why Trinitarian Christians and Unitarian Christians must follow Christ as Master, regardless of whether they think He is God or the Son of God.
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I am firm in that God is One and that Jesus is not God.
I am firm that those who mistakenly believe in the Nicean creed about the Trinity, as well as those who reject that creed, can enjoy all the blessings of those who sincerely love and follow Jesus.
I am firm that being "right" on certain doctrine, does not confer anyone a better position in the eyes of God, as long as they reveal in their life the fruits of the spirit.
I am firm that God forgives people from all religions who come to Him with contrite, broken heart.
Thank you for finally beginning to reveal your beliefs. You say Jesus was a man who was with His Father before the world began. What man can preexist before the world began and not possess a Divine God nature?
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Hi @synergy
Below you will see the post.
I notice, though, that the post lacks the fifth and very important argument:
In the episode of the burning bush, in Exodus 3:14,15 we learn that YWHW [I am who I am] is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
This definitely proves that Jesus is not YWHW [I am who I am], the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. If you have a counterargument for this, please share it with our readers.
Below you will see the post.
I notice, though, that the post lacks the fifth and very important argument:
In the episode of the burning bush, in Exodus 3:14,15 we learn that YWHW [I am who I am] is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM,” and He said, “You will say this to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
God, moreover, said to Moses, “Thus you will say to the children of Israel, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’
Well, in Acts 3:13 the apostles identified Jesus not as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel but as the Son of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel. Peter presented them as two different beings: one doing one thing for the other. And only one of them being called God... and not just God, but a specific God.The God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His Son Jesus, whom you handed over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him
This definitely proves that Jesus is not YWHW [I am who I am], the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. If you have a counterargument for this, please share it with our readers.
101G
Well-known member
Greeting brother,
let's used that 5% to make it 100% that the Lord Jesus is God All the time, as the Ordinal Last.
Scripture, Acts 9:13 "Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:" Acts 9:14 "And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name." Acts 9:15 "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"
now the apostle Paul, quotes again what was said when he had come to Jerusalem about what was said in Damascus
Acts 22:11 "And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus." Acts 22:12 "And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there," Acts 22:13 "Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him." Acts 22:14 "And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth."
The God of our fathers hath CHOSEN Paul? so, the God of our fathers is the "LORD", God right? well let's see. for there is a third account of the same incident, now Paul is before king Agrippa.
Acts 26:12 "Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests," Acts 26:13 "At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me." Acts 26:14 "And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." Acts 26:15 "And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest." Acts 26:16 "But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;"
the KEYVERSE is Acts 26:16 "But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;"
this term, "MAKE" is the Greek word,
G4400 προχειρίζομαι procheirizomai (pro-chei-riy'-zo-mai) v.
1. to handle for oneself in advance.
2. (figuratively) to purpose.
[middle voice from G4253 and a derivative of G5495]
KJV: choose, make
Root(s): G4253, G5495
here to make is the same word "Choose" used here as well as in Acts 22:14. so, clearly the Lord Jesus is God, almighty.
101G.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I don't mind attacks. I'm a firm believer that progress is often only made through making people angry. Jesus did it everywhere He went. Even among those who claimed to love Him. I've personally found I've been angry with God and didn't even realize it at the time. I believe Job was as well.
I disagree. I believe what Jesus said. If you do not believe that Christ is who He said He is.... then you will die in your sins. As I've said many times around here, The death of Jesus Christ not only freed man from sin, it also utterly condemned those who reject Him for who He is. I'm not expecting you to believe every single detail about Christ. That takes time. However, to deny that Christ is needed for salvation is "non starter" with me.
You said Jesus wasn't essential for salvation. You can't tell me that you actually love Jesus and then deny this fact.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
So Christ is your Master? Does Christ have a name which is above every name?
I don't see how you can claim such things and then treat Him with so little respect. You're the one presenting scenarios wherein loving Jesus Christ as Master.... "competes" with God.
Not me.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I got that part. So does Jesus ever disagree with God? Ever?
I never said anything about a creed of defined by men. If I do, remind me. I can tell you that I will not. I haven't in many years. I usually argue with such methods.
Praise is merited. You can not merit praise but the requirements for praise are still true. Praise must be merited. If Jesus Christ is worthy of praise then He is more than just a man.
Mar_10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
God forgives based upon the meritorious actions of Jesus Christ. Not the actions of you nor I..... nor anyone else.
Please confirm or deny these facts.
Jesus is given many names ("I Am", "Son of God", "Son of Man", "Emmanuel - God with us", etc....). None of those names negates him being the "I Am" God of the OT as he explicitly stated in John 8:58. In fact, several of his titles confirms that he is God. John 1 makes it clear that Jesus is God.
Also, notice how the Angel of the Lord calls Himself “the God of your father…” Since God is Trinitarian then it can be said that the Angel of the Lord can be representative of all 3 Persons, not just one. There is no Trinitarian contradiction anywhere.
Furthermore, you are at a loss on how to explain in Baha'i Islamic terms how Jesus existed before Abraham existed as stated in John 8:58.
Jesus identified Himself as the OT God "I Am" whose name all Pharisees were well aware of. Just because we are not familiar with addressing God that way does not negate the fact that the Pharisees addressed God that way.
This brings up a very important point. It is Pharisees that are the audience here, not your common man who knows very little. This phrase is meant for those who should know better, those who should be the learned people of the faith. Now if you aspire to be a learned person, it looks like you will have to abide by Jesus' words. If you want to stay a person who knows very little then you can stay as is.
The name "I Am" is the name of God in the Old Testament. (Ex 3:14). There is no getting around that fact. Christ had many other names which takes nothing away from the fact that he identified Himself as the OT God "I Am" both here and in other parts of the New Testament.
That Angel also declared that He is the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ So, there is more than just a typical Angel here. Do you seriously what to challenge these statements?
30 “And when forty years had passed, an Angel [a]of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire in a bush, in the wilderness of Mount Sinai. 31 When Moses saw it, he marveled at the sight; and as he drew near to observe, the voice of the Lord came to him, 32 saying, ‘I am the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ And Moses trembled and dared not look.
Isaiah 43:11 clearly states that the OT God is the only Savior. So if Jesus is not God then we're in deep deep trouble. I guess the Baha'i Islamic religion couldn't care less about this fact. Proceed at your own risk.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no Savior.
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
We are discussing the specific words of John 8:58, because you have chosen to discuss that.
I can gladly share with you my views of the names you mention (eg Son of God) in other posts.
You are claiming that the words “I am” of Jesus in John 8:58 prove He is the God of the God of the OT…. but not only that. You go still further, claiming that Jesus “explicitly” stated to be the God of the OT by saying those words.
Was the “I am who I am”, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Yes.
Did Peter considered Jesus to be the God of Abraham, Isaac or Jacob? No.
So, the thesis about John 8:28 proving Jesus is the God of Israel has been refuted.
Then, who is the “I am” that Jesus is?
The one Jesus has been saying “since the beginning” and across chapter 8: the one sent by God, the one who speaks and does what God tells Him to speak and do.
Which Jesus is not, according to Peter in Acts 3, and according to the teachings of Jesus Himself, who always refered to God as a different person.
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