civic
Well-known member
Your beliefs about Jesus person and resurrection are identical.
Salvation and Unitarians
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Thanks for sharing with me and our readers your thoughts.
If I understood you correctly, you believe that Father and Son are two names describing two roles of the same One Being.
If I have misunderstood you, please accept my apologies and correct me.
I find modalism a beautiful way to continue worshiping One Single Being.
Still, I would find very hard to believe that the Son and the Father are the same being considering the very numerous instances in which Jesus talks about His Father in third person and particularly, the instance where Jesus talks to His Father in second person in Gethsemane.
***
In regard to the point you make about the creation, Paul presents the role of the Father and the Son in 1 Cor 8:5-7
- The Father is the source or origin (the preposition "from" is used), and
- Jesus Christ is the instrument or means (the preposition "through" is used).
For there are those who are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, as there are many gods and many lords. But for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist. And there is one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
civic
Well-known member
Correcting the false teaching that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God, a spiritual body is immaterial and the meaning of a life giving Spirit.
1 CORINTHIANS 15:50: “Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.”
Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that Jesus could not have risen in His human body of flesh and bones, because Scripture states that “flesh and blood” cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Notice that Jesus did not say that His resurrected body was made of “flesh and blood.” Rather, He said His body was made of “flesh and bone” (Luke 24:39). This is significant because the term “flesh and blood” is often used in Scripture to refer to mortal humanity,in contrast to the imperishable, resurrected body alluded to by the phrase, “flesh and bones.”
Far from claiming that the resurrected human body cannot inherit God’s kingdom, this passage asserts that the mortal, perishable human body (made of flesh and blood) cannot inherit the immortal, imperishable kingdom of God. Indeed as 1 Corinthians 15:53 states, “this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.”
A spiritual body denotes an immortal body. A spiritual body is one that is dominated by the spirit, not one that is devoid of matter. The Greek word pneumatikos means a body that is directed by the spirit as opposed to one under the dominion of the flesh. It is not ruled by the flesh that perishes but by the spirit that endures. (1 Corinthians 15:50-58). A spiritual body does no mean immaterial or invisible but immortal and imperishable. Paul makes these parallels:
Earthly- Heavenly (verse 40)
Perishable- Imperishable (verse 42)
Weak- Powerful(verse 43)
Natural-Supernatural(verse 44)
Mortal- Immortal(verse 53)
The content shows that spiritual (pneumatikos) could be translated supernatural in contrast to natural from the parallels of perishable and imperishable, corruptible and incorruptible. Pneumatikos is translated supernatural in 1 Corinthians 10:4 regarding the supernatural rock that followed them in the wilderness. In the translation spiritual refers to physical objects. In 1 Corinthians 10:45 Paul spoke of the spiritual rock that followed Israel in the wilderness from which they got spiritual drink 1 Corinthians 10:4.But the OT story (Exodus 17,Numbers 20)reveals it was a physical rock from which they got literal water to drink. The actual water they drank from the material rock was produced supernaturally. Further Paul spoke about a spiritual man 1 Corinthians 2:15 he obviously did not mean an invisible, immaterial man with no corporeal body. He was as a matter of fact speaking of a flesh and blood human being whose life is lived by the supernatural power of God, a literal person whose life is Spirit directed. A spiritual man is one who is taught by the Spirit and who receives the things that come from the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2:13-14). The resurrection body can be called a spiritual body in much the same way we speak of the bible being a spiritual book. Regardless of their spiritual source and power both the resurrection body and the bible are material objects.
Life giving Spirit does not speak of the nature of Christ’s resurrected body but of the divine origin of the resurrection. Jesus physical body came back to life only by the power of God.(Romans 1:4). Paul is speaking about its spiritual source not its physical substance as a material body. If spirit describes the nature of Christ’s resurrected body then Adam with whom He is contrasted must not have a soul since he is described as of the earth, made of dust (verse 47). But the bible clearly says that Adam was a living soul(Genesis 2:7). Christ’s body is called a spiritual body(soma) which always means a physical body when referring to an individual human being. The resurrected body is called spiritual and life giving spirit because its source is in the spiritual realm, not because its substance is immaterial. Christ’s supernatural resurrection body is from heaven as Adams natural body was from the earth. (verse 47). But just as the one from earth has an immaterial soul even so the One from heaven has a material body. Rhodes
1 Corinthians 15:38-41
But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the starsanother; and star differs from star in splendor.
A summary of the bodies mentioned above are all PHYSICAL in nature
1- people
2- seed
3-animals
4-birds
5-fish
6- heavenly - the sun, moon and stars
7- earthly- all inclusive 1-5
So as we can see BODY above are all PHYSICAL in nature.
These Greek Lexicons agree that soma is physical just like Paul declares in 1 Corinthians 15
Every Greek Lexicon and Dictionary agrees that the Resurrected BODY(SOMA) is physical and not immaterial.
Strong's Concordance
sóma: a body
Original Word: σῶμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: sóma
Phonetic Spelling: (so'-mah)
Definition: a body
Usage: body, flesh;
HELPS Word-studies
4983 sṓma – the physical body.
NT:4983) is "the body as a whole, the instrument of life," whether of man living, e. g., Matt 6:22, or dead, Matt 27:52; or in resurrection, 1 Corinthians 15:44; or of beasts, Heb 13:11; of grain, 1 Cor 15:37-38; of the heavenly hosts, 1 Cor 15:40.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)
More proof soma is physical
as in Greek writings from Hesiod down, the living body: — of animals, James 3:3; — of man: τό σῶμα, absolutely, Luke 11:34; Luke 12:23; 1 Corinthians 6:13, etc.; ἐν σώματι εἶναι, of earthly life with its troubles, Hebrews 13:3; distinguished from τό αἷμα, 1 Corinthians 11:27; τό σῶμα and τά μέλη of it, 1 Corinthians 12:12, 14-20; James 3:6; τό σῶμα the temple of τό ἅγιον πνεῦμα, 1 Corinthians 6:19; the instrument of the soul, τά διά τοῦ σωματου namely, πραχθεντα, 2 Corinthians 5:10; it is distinguished — from τό πνεῦμα, in Romans 8:10; 1 Corinthians 5:3; 1 Corinthians 6:20 Rec.; ; James 2:26(4 Macc. 11:11); — from ἡ ψυχή, in Matthew 6:25; Matthew 10:28; Luke 12:22 (Wis. 1:4 Wis. 8:19f; 2 Macc. 7:37 2Macc. 14:38; 4 Macc. 1:28, etc.); — from ἡ ψυχή and τό πνεῦμα together, in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 (cf. Song of the Three, 63); σῶμα ψυχικόν and σῶμα πνευματικόν are distinguished, 1 Corinthians 15:44 (see πνευματικός, 1 and ψυχικός, a.); τό σῶμα τίνος, Matthew 5:29; Luke 11:34; Romans 4:19; Romans 8:23 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 187 (176)), etc.; ὁ ναός τοῦ σωματου αὐτοῦ, the temple which was his body, John 2:21; plural, Romans 1:24; 1 Corinthians 6:15; Ephesians 5:28; the genitive of the possessor is omitted where it is easily learned from the context, as 1 Corinthians 5:3; 2 Corinthians 4:10; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Hebrews 10:22(23), etc.; τό σῶμα τῆς ταπεινώσεως ἡμῶν, the body of our humiliation (subjective genitive), i. e. which we wear in this servile and lowly human life, opposed to τό σῶμα τῆς δόξης αὐτοῦ (i. e. τοῦ Χριστοῦ), the body which Christ has in his glorified state with God in heaven, Philippians 3:21; διά τοῦ σωματου τοῦ Χριστοῦ, through the death of Christ's body, Romans 7:4; διά τῆς προσφοράς τοῦ σωματου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, through the sacrificial offering of the body of Jesus Christ, Hebrews 10:10; τό σῶμα τῆς σαρκός, the body consisting of flesh, i. e. the physical body
Thayers Greek Lexicon
hope this helps !!!
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
@Studyman more proof your are wrong.
Spiritual does not mean immaterial as those who reject the physical, bodily Resurrection of Christ
Philippians 3:20-21
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
NASB
Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.
NASB
Believers bodies will be transformed from its current state which is corrupt, sinful mortal to a body like His which Incorruptible, Holy/Sinless and Immortal in the Resurrection as per 1 Cor 15, Romans 8:11, Phil 3:21.
And when we compare the above with Paul in these passages below we see that the body(soma) in the context is a real material body which is physical in the Resurrection but controlled completely by the Spirit in the afterlife.
pneumatikos: spiritual
Original Word: πνευματικός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pneumatikos
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo-mat-ik-os')
Definition: spiritual
Usage: spiritual.
Thayer’s Greek Lexicon- belonging to the Divine Spirit; Used 26 times in the N.T.
a. in reference to things; emanating from the Divine Spirit, or exhibiting its effects and so its character: χάρισμα, Romans 1:11; εὐλογία, Ephesians 1:3; σοφία καί σύνεσις πνευματικῇ (opposed to σοφία σαρκικῇ, 2 Corinthians 1:12; ψυχική, James 3:15), Colossians 1:9; ᾠδαί, divinely inspired, and so redolent of the Holy Spirit, Colossians 3:16; (Ephesians 5:19 Lachmann brackets); ὁ νόμος (opposed to a σάρκινος man), Romans 7:14; θυσίαι, tropically, the acts of a life dedicated to God and approved by him, due to the influence of the Holy Spirit (tacitly opposed to the sacrifices of an external worship), 1 Peter 2:5; equivalent to produced by the sole power of God himself without natural instrumeutality, supernatural, βρῶμα, πόμα, πέτρα, 1 Corinthians 10:3, 4 ((cf. 'Teaching' etc. 10, 3 [ET])); πνευματικά, thoughts, opinions, precepts, maxims, ascribable to the Holy Spirit working in the soul, 1 Corinthians 2:13 (on which see συγκρίνω, 1); τά πνευματικά, spirithal gifts — of the endowments called χαρίσματα (see χάρισμα), 1 Corinthians 12:1; 1 Corinthians 14:1; universally, the spiritual or heavenly blessings of the gospel, opposed to τά σαρκικά, Romans 15:27; (1 Corinthians 9:11).
b. in reference to persons; one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God: 1 Corinthians 2:15 (cf. ); (); ; Galatians 6:1; οἶκος πνευματικός, of a body of Christians (see οἶκος, 1 b. at the end), 1 Peter 2:5. (The word is not found in the O. T. (cf. Winers Grammar, § 34, 3).
Natural(psychikos) body
Spiritual(pneumatikos) body
1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
Below we see how Paul uses and contrasts the words natural (psychikos) and spiritual (pneumatikos) below;
1 Corinthians 2:14-16
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no man.
Paul is clearly contrasting the unsaved with the saved with the natural man and spiritual man. One is controlled by the natural or the flesh while the other is controlled by the spirit/spiritual- Holy Spirit. Just like in 1 Cor 15:44 where Paul is contrasting the natural body that is controlled by the flesh with the spiritual body that is controlled by the Spirit. Both are real physical bodies but the difference is one is controlled by the flesh which is carnal and the other is controlled by the Spirit and is spiritual. One has the appetites and desires of the flesh while the other has appetites and desires controlled by the Spirit. Hence a spiritual body is one that is controlled by the Spirit of God in the Resurrection.
Paul’s usage below of spiritual(pneumatikos) in 1 Corinthians 10 where he calls the rock, food and drink spiritual it does not mean an immaterial rock, food and drink but a real Rock, Manna and Water which were with the Israelites in the wilderness wanderings.
1 Corinthians 10:1-4
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
Now Paul drives home the point of our new literal physical bodies below in heaven from the text in 2nd Cor 5 below;
2 Corinthians 5:1-5
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.
You see there is no bodiless spirit men in heaven unclothed (no body) but indeed with a heavenly body (like Jesus) has now in heaven which is flesh and bones like He said His Resurrected body was to His Disciples.
Spiritual is used to describe these physical things:
the spiritual man
he who is spiritual
the spiritual rock
the spiritual food
the spiritual drink
the spiritual songs
the spiritual house
the spiritual things
the spiritual body
hope this helps,
Spiritual does not mean immaterial as those who reject the physical, bodily Resurrection of Christ
Philippians 3:20-21
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
NASB
Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.
NASB
Believers bodies will be transformed from its current state which is corrupt, sinful mortal to a body like His which Incorruptible, Holy/Sinless and Immortal in the Resurrection as per 1 Cor 15, Romans 8:11, Phil 3:21.
And when we compare the above with Paul in these passages below we see that the body(soma) in the context is a real material body which is physical in the Resurrection but controlled completely by the Spirit in the afterlife.
pneumatikos: spiritual
Original Word: πνευματικός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pneumatikos
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo-mat-ik-os')
Definition: spiritual
Usage: spiritual.
Thayer’s Greek Lexicon- belonging to the Divine Spirit; Used 26 times in the N.T.
a. in reference to things; emanating from the Divine Spirit, or exhibiting its effects and so its character: χάρισμα, Romans 1:11; εὐλογία, Ephesians 1:3; σοφία καί σύνεσις πνευματικῇ (opposed to σοφία σαρκικῇ, 2 Corinthians 1:12; ψυχική, James 3:15), Colossians 1:9; ᾠδαί, divinely inspired, and so redolent of the Holy Spirit, Colossians 3:16; (Ephesians 5:19 Lachmann brackets); ὁ νόμος (opposed to a σάρκινος man), Romans 7:14; θυσίαι, tropically, the acts of a life dedicated to God and approved by him, due to the influence of the Holy Spirit (tacitly opposed to the sacrifices of an external worship), 1 Peter 2:5; equivalent to produced by the sole power of God himself without natural instrumeutality, supernatural, βρῶμα, πόμα, πέτρα, 1 Corinthians 10:3, 4 ((cf. 'Teaching' etc. 10, 3 [ET])); πνευματικά, thoughts, opinions, precepts, maxims, ascribable to the Holy Spirit working in the soul, 1 Corinthians 2:13 (on which see συγκρίνω, 1); τά πνευματικά, spirithal gifts — of the endowments called χαρίσματα (see χάρισμα), 1 Corinthians 12:1; 1 Corinthians 14:1; universally, the spiritual or heavenly blessings of the gospel, opposed to τά σαρκικά, Romans 15:27; (1 Corinthians 9:11).
b. in reference to persons; one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God: 1 Corinthians 2:15 (cf. ); (); ; Galatians 6:1; οἶκος πνευματικός, of a body of Christians (see οἶκος, 1 b. at the end), 1 Peter 2:5. (The word is not found in the O. T. (cf. Winers Grammar, § 34, 3).
Natural(psychikos) body
Spiritual(pneumatikos) body
1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
Below we see how Paul uses and contrasts the words natural (psychikos) and spiritual (pneumatikos) below;
1 Corinthians 2:14-16
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no man.
Paul is clearly contrasting the unsaved with the saved with the natural man and spiritual man. One is controlled by the natural or the flesh while the other is controlled by the spirit/spiritual- Holy Spirit. Just like in 1 Cor 15:44 where Paul is contrasting the natural body that is controlled by the flesh with the spiritual body that is controlled by the Spirit. Both are real physical bodies but the difference is one is controlled by the flesh which is carnal and the other is controlled by the Spirit and is spiritual. One has the appetites and desires of the flesh while the other has appetites and desires controlled by the Spirit. Hence a spiritual body is one that is controlled by the Spirit of God in the Resurrection.
Paul’s usage below of spiritual(pneumatikos) in 1 Corinthians 10 where he calls the rock, food and drink spiritual it does not mean an immaterial rock, food and drink but a real Rock, Manna and Water which were with the Israelites in the wilderness wanderings.
1 Corinthians 10:1-4
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
Now Paul drives home the point of our new literal physical bodies below in heaven from the text in 2nd Cor 5 below;
2 Corinthians 5:1-5
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.
You see there is no bodiless spirit men in heaven unclothed (no body) but indeed with a heavenly body (like Jesus) has now in heaven which is flesh and bones like He said His Resurrected body was to His Disciples.
Spiritual is used to describe these physical things:
the spiritual man
he who is spiritual
the spiritual rock
the spiritual food
the spiritual drink
the spiritual songs
the spiritual house
the spiritual things
the spiritual body
hope this helps,
civic
Well-known member
Here is something to consider, contemplate and seek the Lords wisdom on this aspect below regarding the Resurrection. We must remember Paul defines the gospel in 1 Cor 15:1-8 then spends the entire rest of the chapter focusing on the centerpiece of the gospel, the resurrection of Christ. Below are the reasons why in my humble estimation.
We are not born again / saved by the atonement. It’s His Resurrection from the dead that is life giving , that conquered sin, death and the devil.
We must go back to the gospel and what the scriptures teach about the good news of Jesus death, burial and resurrection as defined in 1 Corinthians 15.
1 Corinthians 15:17- And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
The passage declares if Christ is not risen, raised from the dead, resurrected then our faith is in vain and we are still dead in our sins. We are saved by His life/Resurrection not His death. His death atoned for sin but does not give life.
Romans 4:24-25
but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Paul declares in Romans 5:10 the following: For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Cf Acts 17:31.
John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
We know that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. Romans 10:17. We know that God saves those who believe – 1 Corinthians 1:21. We know that we receive the spirit and are sealed with the spirit through belief in the gospel- Ephesians 1:13.
Philippians 3:10 refers to the power displayed in the resurrection and the power that comes from it. The resurrection of Jesus Christ was a powerful demonstration of the power of God. Not only was Jesus raised up but we were raised up with Him (Ephesians 4:8; 2:6).
There is life-giving power of His resurrection. The resurrection power of God is His dunamis or explosive power. Resurrection life brings the life of God at our conversion when we are born again. (John 11:25 – 26; 1 John 5:12). The Holy Spirit indwells us when we are born again. We are changed, born of the Spirit, and we have the same life in us as He has, the Zoe life of God (2 Corinthians 5:17; John 3:3-8.)
Romans 6:4-6
Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so, we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Romans 8:10-11
And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
@Studyman you have bit off way more than you can chew.
hope this helps !!!
We are not born again / saved by the atonement. It’s His Resurrection from the dead that is life giving , that conquered sin, death and the devil.
We must go back to the gospel and what the scriptures teach about the good news of Jesus death, burial and resurrection as defined in 1 Corinthians 15.
1 Corinthians 15:17- And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
The passage declares if Christ is not risen, raised from the dead, resurrected then our faith is in vain and we are still dead in our sins. We are saved by His life/Resurrection not His death. His death atoned for sin but does not give life.
Romans 4:24-25
but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Paul declares in Romans 5:10 the following: For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Cf Acts 17:31.
John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
We know that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. Romans 10:17. We know that God saves those who believe – 1 Corinthians 1:21. We know that we receive the spirit and are sealed with the spirit through belief in the gospel- Ephesians 1:13.
Philippians 3:10 refers to the power displayed in the resurrection and the power that comes from it. The resurrection of Jesus Christ was a powerful demonstration of the power of God. Not only was Jesus raised up but we were raised up with Him (Ephesians 4:8; 2:6).
There is life-giving power of His resurrection. The resurrection power of God is His dunamis or explosive power. Resurrection life brings the life of God at our conversion when we are born again. (John 11:25 – 26; 1 John 5:12). The Holy Spirit indwells us when we are born again. We are changed, born of the Spirit, and we have the same life in us as He has, the Zoe life of God (2 Corinthians 5:17; John 3:3-8.)
Romans 6:4-6
Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so, we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Romans 8:10-11
And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
@Studyman you have bit off way more than you can chew.
hope this helps !!!
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
In John 17:1-3, Jesus is talking directly to His Father. It was an intimate conversation, wasn't it?
So, if Jesus calls his Father the Only and True God, He meant that.
Furthermore, in John 17:1-3, Jesus identifies Himself as a person sent by the Only and True God.
So, in John 17:1-3 Jesus reveals who is the Father and who is himself.
Obviously you are free to believe what you want to believe, just as me and anyone else in this Forum.
My purpose in talking to you is not to change your mind about the Trinity, but to change your mind about the Unitarians, so that you can embrace them as your brothers and sisters. They will be forgiven and saved just as you.
civic
Well-known member
Without the bodily resurrection which was permanent one has no Savior and you are still dead in your sins according to the Apostle Paul. 1 Corinthians 15:17
Many deny Jesus was Resurrected and Ascended into heaven bodily( a human body with real flesh and bones) and are still dead in their sins even though they might claim to be a christian. That is an oxymoron.
Luke 24:37-43
37 But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." 40 And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41 While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?" 42 They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; 43 and He took it and ate it before them.
John 20:24-25
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."
John 20:27-28
27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
There is one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (1Timothy 2:5) post ascension.
Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.(Hebrews 13:5) Changeless, Immutable. Jesus was a man when He walked this earth, when He Ascended and when He will return again at His 2nd Coming.
1 Corinthians 15:1-8
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.
1 Corinthians 15:14-18
14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
2 Corinthians 5:1-10
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are here in this body or away from this body, our goal is to please him.
In Heaven.... Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Look up the meaning of the word soma below, it always means a physical body in relation to anthropos(man).
His Body.....Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Matthew 27:52-53
52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
Philippians 3:20-21
And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
1 Corinthians 15:44-45
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15 that if Christ be not risen your faith is in vain and you are still dead in your sins- an unbeliever who is lost. Those who deny the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus such as the JW's who teach that Jesus is now a spirit based being fit into this camp. They deny the resurrection.
If we look at what Paul is saying in this passage, it is that corruptible flesh and blood shall not enter the kingdom. Paul says corruptible does not inherit the incorruptible. Paul is not saying the resurrection body will not have flesh but what he declares is that the resurrected body will not have perishable flesh. Remember in Luke Jesus said see here My hands and feet, touch Me a spirit/ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. Peter, Paul and John all agree that Jesus still had flesh well after His ascension. 1 John being the last of the books of the three Apostles declared that Jesus having come in the flesh and those who deny this are the spirit of antichrist. John makes it clear that the Incarnation was permanent. Jesus is forever both God and man. This is what Paul teaches in the whole 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians. The glorious physical bodies that we will have in the resurrection. We will have incorruptible bodies just as Jesus now has in heaven.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
The number one test to distinguish truth for error and the Spirit of God from that of the spirit of antichrist is the confession of our divine Lord Jesus Christ. Every spirit that confesses meaning to continually confess or agrees with saying the same thing as John declares in his writings is from God. This is the person who is taught by the Spirit of God according to John. The first test that you want to have for any teacher is their Christology, check out what they say about Christ. This becomes a litmus test that is very easy to spot among the false teachers in the N.T. times which we can apply today. If you have somebody who denies the deity of Christ you have a clear indication their teaching comes from the spirit of antichrist.
If we go back to the beginning of 1 John, we read that which we he beheld, and actually touched concerning the Word of life. That is a term expressing the very deity of Christ. Christ emanates from God as His living Word. He was with the Father in the beginning in 1:2. Jesus was One with the Father sharing the same essence with the Father in heaven with Him before the foundation of the world. John says He was manifested to us. John's language then starts out with the fact that Jesus Christ emanates from God as the very living Word of God. Jesus is the living Word of God,the One John says that was from the beginning that we heard, we saw and we touched. Jesus the Word of life was the eternal One who was with the Father prior to His Incarnation and was then manifested to us in the flesh that we could see and hear and touch according to John. Therefore, we can clearly see Jesus is the very Word of God Incarnate. He is the eternal life who became flesh. The Word who was with God, the Word who was God, was the One who John says was manifested to us. This is how we can tell the spirit of truth from the spirit of antichrist. Can you confess Jesus is God Incarnate?
1 John 4:2
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;
2 John 7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
Erchomenon the present participle in 2 John 7
Alford- the present tense is timeless(pg 274 RNTC on 2 John)
Brooke- the Incarnation is not only an event in history, it is an abiding truth(pg 274 RNTC on 2 John)
Stott- the two natures manhood and Godhood were united already at His birth, never to be divided. In 1 John 4:2 and here in 2 John 7 emphasizes this permanent union of the natures in the One Person ( TNTC pages 209-210) He who denies the Incarnation is not just a deceiver and an antichrist but “the deceiver and the antichrist”. There is in this heresy a double affront: it opposes Christ and deceives men.(stott TNCT page 210)
Marshall- the use of the present and perfect tenses becomes significant if the point is that Jesus Christ had come and still existed “in flesh”. For him(John) it was axiomatic that there had been a true Incarnation, that the word became flesh and remained flesh. It is a point that receives much stress in 1 John 2:18-28;4:1-6;5:5-8. (NICNT pages 70-71)
Smalley- the present tense emphasizes the permanent union of the human and Divine natures in Jesus. Gods self disclosure in Jesus took place at a particular moment in history , but it has continuing effects in the present and into the future(Word Biblical Commentary page 317)
Nicoll- the continuous manifestation of the Incarnate Christ(Expositors Greek Testament Volume 5 page 202)
Akin- Much has been made of the fact that John uses the present tense in this Christological confession. Literally the verse reads, “Jesus Christ coming in flesh.” “Coming” is a present active participle. This stands out in remarkable contrast to the affirmation of 1 John 4:2, where the text states that “Jesus Christ has [emphasis mine] come in the flesh.” There the perfect active participle is used. The key, it seems, is to discover what John is affirming. Here in 2 John the emphasis falls on the abiding reality of the incarnation. First John 4:2 teaches that the Christ, the Father’s Son (v. 3), has come in the flesh. Second John affirms that the wedding of deity and humanity has an abiding reality (cf. 1 Tim 2:5). The ontological and essential nature of the incarnation that would receive eloquent expression one thousand years later in the writing of St. Anselm (1033–1109) in his classic Cur Deus Homo is already present in seed form in the tiny and neglected letter of 2 John.
Lenski- In 1 John 4:2 we have ἐν σαρκὶ ἐληλυθότα, the perfect participle, “as having come in flesh” (incarnate, John 1:14); here we have ἐρχόμενον ἐν σαρκί, “as coming in flesh,” although the participle is present in form it is really timeless.of Christ as "still being manifested." See the note at 1 John 3:5. In 1 John 4:2 we have the manifestation treated as a past fact by the perfect tense, eleeluthota "has come
Robertson- That Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh Ieesoun Christon erchomenon en sarki. "Jesus Christ coming in the flesh." Present middle participle of erchomai treating the Incarnation as a continuing fact which the Docetic Gnostics flatly denied. In 1 John 4:2 we have eleeluthota (perfect active participle) in this same construction with homologeoo, because there the reference is to the definite historical fact of the Incarnation
conclusion: you teach the doctrine from the spirit of antichrist as per the Apostle John which denies Jesus came in the flesh and remains in the flesh permanently.
hope this helps !!!
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Dear friends
I think that the original concern of our brother @praise_yeshua in starting this thread has been somewhat forgotten.
The central topic of his thread is salvation and the belief in Trinity.
I believe that God saves those who He forgives and transforms by His grace, and I believe that has nothing to do with believing in the deity of Christ, but in doing what Christ asked us to do: repent, be born again into a new life: a life of love and submission to God's will.
I am open to go back to this essential issue and debate respectfully.
As I have said before, I don't study the religious philosophies of this world's religious sects and businesses. I study Scriptures. So I don't keep score.
Yes, you must move away from what is actually written and make it personal. I don't like this religious tactic, although it is popular among the many who call Jesus Lord, Lord.
The Christ, "of the Bible" is my Head, therefore He is greater than me. I strive to be like Him as He instructs.
Matt. 10: 24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. 25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
So there is no doubt that the Lord's Christ, who God gave power over all flesh, is more powerful than me. I never suggested otherwise.
1 Kings 17: 21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. 22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
John 11: 40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see "the glory of God"?
41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, "and said", Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that "thou hast sent me". 43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
The same God of the Lord's Christ is the same God of Elijah. Through faith in this God, both the prophesied Messiah Jesus, who God sent, and Elijah, who God sent, raised the dead with the Power of God.
Jesus is serving this same God even today, sitting on the right hand of God and advocating between God and man. And I am thankful HE is there on my behalf.
How can I prove something I have never said or even implied? Why do you work so hard to place in me things I do not believe. You should check yourself friend.
Jesus is perfect, I am not. But I strive to be exactly like Him as Paul teaches the true Church of God.
Phil. 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, "I count not myself" to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and "reaching forth unto those things which are before", 14 "I press toward the mark" for the prize of the high calling of God (Perfection, even as God is perfect) "in Christ Jesus".
I believe if the power of God's Spirit is in me, I can walk, "Even as Jesus" walked. And I know there are "other voices" in the garden God placed me in that will discourage this journey, just as there has been since the very beginning. But God saw these religious voices coming, and prepared for me the "Sword of the Lord" to defend and protect myself from them.
1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that "doeth righteousness" is righteous, even as he is righteous.
and again;
1 John 2: 5 But whoso "keepeth his word", in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him "ought himself also so to walk", even as he walked.
God said to yield yourself a servant to obey God, same as He told me. I have said nothing different, your implications notwithstanding.
You have your views and are welcome to promote them. Thanks for sharing.
You are promoting again, something I never said or implied and for what? To exalt yourself over me? To belittle me? To justify yourself before me? Who am I that you would become a tale bearer just to demean me?
"Yes, the other voice in the garden will convince many that obeying God is not Christlike, or not important, or doesn't matter in terms of living or dying. I advocate that men listen to what is actually written."
If you don't believe satan isn't one of the religious voices in this world, I would implore you to look into the Scriptures a little more.
2 Cor. 11: 12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found "even as we".
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
I have "come out of her" 30 years ago, and I still deal with the remnants of her influence. If you don't believe you are influenced by this world's religions, then it is you who are claiming to be exactly like Jesus.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I'm going to make some statements about where I believe you're at in your journey to know God. I'm glad that you desire to know God. It is the duty of man.
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
I have never not believed in the Trinity. It was loosely taught to me as a child by novices. I have spent a large amount of time in my life studying Jesus Christ. I have debated this extensively throughout my life. That is how I know @civic. We've debated this topic extensively for years at a previous forum. I wish some of those "threads" were still around. Civic probably has some of those old conversations saved. I want you to know, that I do not believe in the Trinity solely because someone taught me about it. I believe in Him because I have extensively vetted the words of the Scriptures concerning Him. I have no problem whatsoever with basing my Eternity on what I believe concerning Jesus Christ. It is very personal to me. Christ has been such an Integral part of my thoughts and dreams that I don't know where I start and He begins anymore. I adore Him. He means the "world" to me. I've had a personal relationship with Him for a long time. He is more than words to me. More than writings. More than the musing of others. He is my friend. My Lord. My Master. My Redeemer. He is "all together lovely" to me. His forgiveness and fellowship completes me.
I wish you can know this yourself. I do.
I believe you've not gotten to this place in your life before in your search for God. I believe you can. In fact, I believe it is essential for you to do just that. I understand the desire to believe in Universalism to some degree. I have that desire myself. However, I've come to realize just how essential sincerity is in this relationship we're searching for in God.
I believe you can not know God without knowing Jesus Christ. Your view of Jesus Christ is better than many but not good enough to please God.
What would you do if someone said they believed in your father and then talked about you (his son) the way you're talking about Jesus Christ?
So then, according to your religious test, Paul is an Anti-Christ, and if I post Paul's words concerning flesh and blood entering the kingdom of heaven, then I too am also an anti-Christ.
Thanks for sharing Civic, but respectfully I don't agree that the Holy Scriptures promote such a philosophy.
civic
Well-known member
You are conflating flesh and blood ( which is perishable ) with flesh and bones ( imperishable body Jesus rose from the dead with permanently.)
I have expounded on that with great detail where I quoted you in this thread. The Resurrection the foundation of the Christin faith and the gospel is the one doctrine/belief I'm most familiar with in all the Bible. It's the one I've studied at great length the most. I can debate it with any theologian, scholar, pastor etc.... I'm not bragging just stating facts. I'm very well versed biblically on the Resurrection of Christ, its importance and what it means regarding our salvation- the gospel message the Apostles all preached in Acts and their Epistles.
hope this helps !!!
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You contrasted it. Knowledge is essential to contrasts.
I don't buy the false nonsense that what we believe isn't personal. You're resisting the Truth because it is offensive to your personal beliefs. We can argue about the Scriptures. I asked for personal examples because they are meaningful. I believe I've already said that before.
You repeatedly claimed that any man can have the power and thusly... position... of Jesus Christ.
I'm glad you recognize that you don't have it. I've recognized that I don't have it....
So who is this "theoretical" person who has it?
Your argument requires that there be an example of Jesus Christ somewhere? You're argument requires this. If you're going to claim that anyone can have the same power as Jesus Christ (just a man)...... then provide evidence.
You haven't. Belief without evidence is what? No one has emulated Jesus Christ without failure. That makes Jesus Christ UNIQUE among men. MORE than just a man.
The Scriptures are a self awareness test. You claim you're not like Jesus and then claim you can be just like Jesus. You haven't yet, when are you going to get to be just like Jesus?
That is why I don't call you Master. That is why I don't accept others calling me Master...... Seems Jesus is more unique than you're allow in your position.
I'm the Master of no one. I'm not exactly like Christ. That is why I worship HIM. Yet, you believe the Father is angry with me for "worshipping" His only begotten Son. I don't believe this. I believe the Father loves me because I love His Son. I believe when I love His Son, I'm loving the Father.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
No bones broken............ Good stuff.
I don't know why you can't hear me sir. I don't study JW doctrines. They used to come to my house, and we would engage in Scriptural discussions, and after a couple of visits from their elder, they stopped coming to my house.
They reject God's Judgments just as Armenians and Calvinists. They reject the Feasts of the Lord, just like Armenians and Calvinists. Thye have created a religious business with manmade shrines of worship, just like Armenians and Calvinists. I see little if any difference between any of them, as they all three compete with each other for buts to fill the seats of their manmade shrines of worship.
Honestly, I have no idea what an "open Theist" is? I don't really care, as my only interest is seeking the Righteousness of God, and Living By his words, as Jesus instructs.
I don't remember what we discussed as it has been many years ago. But I know that several times the underlings would have to go back to their elder with questions I would ask that they didn't know the answer to. And the Elder finally came to my house, and he couldn't support his beliefs with Scripture either. It was a pleasant exchange as I remember, but the Scriptures wouldn't align with the philosophies he was promoting. I have some notes stashed somewhere, if you want, I can dig them up and share them with you.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Okay. I've found it essential to know things about other religions. I can disagree with them more completely but understanding their positions.
If you read the book of Revelation you will find that Jesus appealed to the false doctrine of others and named them concerning their beliefs.
What "feast" do you keep? Christ is my passover.
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Psa 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Psa 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
Is Christ your Passover feast?
civic
Well-known member
your view on these are the exact same as the JW's
flesh and blood
bodily resurrection
deity of Christ
Trinity
works salvation by obedience to the law
I posted the very Words of the Christ, please consider them.
John 14: 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
So what? Shall I pick up my toys and go home? Shall I search for a religion who doesn't promote "Striving against sin"? Shall I consider Paul and Jesus liars and deceivers because they are teaching me to do things this world's religions preach to everyone, is not possible to do?
No PY. I refuse to be discouraged into disbelief.
Yes, HE was a great man. But to preach to others that only God can obey God is foolishness. And yet, this is the implication of your philosophy.
I posted Paul's words describing my journey. And it was Jesus Himself who instructed me to be perfect, even as His Father in heaven is perfect. Now you can mock Him, and those who would believe Him enough to commit to this journey if you please. But I would never try and discourage you in like manner.
You talking to the air my friend. You make up things, and then argue against them as if I said them. How many times have I called the Jesus "of the Bible" my Head, my Savior, my Lord.
Do I create images of him in likeness of some random long haired man? Do I create my own high days in worship of the image, while rejecting the Feasts of the Lord? No.
Nor am I, but that is the goal Jesus Himself instructed me to Press Towards. I won't be turned away from Him or His instruction, regardless of who is trying to discourage me.
God is angry with men for living in disobedience to Him. Those "Christians" in Matt. 7, who called Jesus Lord, Lord, worshiped the only begotten Son as well. But they missed something very important. Can you tell me what they missed?
You are free to worship as you please. I only wanted to discuss what is written in scriptures.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
So you can't name someone that did and you're treating what Jesus said as if "all works" Jesus did can actually be done?
That "rings" of a "hallow" defense. There is an alternative. Several alternatives that actually give Jesus all the Glory He deserves.
I don't know why you'd be discouraged with Jesus Christ being God. Can you explain your discouragement? I don't understand. It has never discouraged me.
Why not accept the Scriptures. There is NONE Good but God. You can join that argument if you would like. Believe Jesus.
God is self satisfying alone. God doesn't need us at all. You seem to prefer that God NEED YOU. I believe it solely through benevolence that God gives mankind anything. If you stick around in this argument, we will end up at that very spot very soon.
I can answer this but I'm going to stop and insist that you actually give a meaningful response to what I have already asked.
Insincerity. You fit right there with them. I do too. You haven't been perfect. You haven't keep God's commandments to love Him with ALL YOUR HEART.......
Compliance without the sincerity of love and agreement means nothing. They were lying. I would be lying if I claimed to do God's works "perfectly". Only the meritorious work of God in Christ Jesus meets God's standards.
These "laws" you appeal to are "mirrors" reflecting your own incapability. You prove it over and over again by failing.
I must say this. I will offend you but it must be said. You know what a person is called when they don't perfectly keep the law of God they espouse?
Hypocrites. Read what Paul said....
Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
This is why I said what I said earlier concerning Romans 1 to another here. If you can get Romans 1 in the right perspective, it all makes sense after that.....
Romans 1 is a trip down memory lane for humanity. You are no better than your fathers that rejected God. Stephen said the same thing....
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Act 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
That is what men do. Repeatedly fail. As you age you will see more of this.
What are you going to do then? As you body lets you down and your spirit aches because of your inabilities. Will you still appeal to "I can do all things" and pretend you always have and always will?
It is an unattainable goal. That is why we keep reaching out. If you attain the goal....
What do you do? Rest? There remains a rest for the people of God......A people of faith that praise Jesus Christ above every man.
Have you shed your blood and life for humanity? Did you accomplish that "work" in your own life that Jesus accomplished. I mean you claimed that you can do all the works of Jesus....
Jesus alone did this ONCE..... and is more than enough for all of humanity.
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