Salvation and Unitarians

[Pancho Frijoles]

I'm concerned for your position with the Father. You're not "one" with the Father if you're rejecting our Master Jesus Christ.

But I'm not rejecting Jesus Christ. @Studyman is not rejecting Jesus Christ.
Rejecting Jesus Christ means not doing what he taught us to do, which is doing the will of Our Father, Our God.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonderful works in Your name?’ But then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from Me, you who practice evil. (Mat 7:21-23)

 

[praise_yeshua]

Metaphorically. It is possible ONLY metaphorically.
I am married. My wife and I are not one flesh.

Then don't say it isn't possible. There are many metaphorical and allegorical expression found in the Scriptures. We need to review them in the context of the teaching.

Jesus also prayed to his God that we all could become one with Him and with God. Do you remember?
Did Jesus mean that we would become part of the Deity?

Christ was made "LOWER"..... than the angels for suffering. I guess you do believe in the requirements of the death of Christ?

There are many varying doctrines among Unitarians. Some are very far removed from any context of the Scriptures. You have me believing that you're Unitarian Universalist?

I agree. Sometimes I prefer to use the word "Mind", or "Will" or "Agent".

If Jesus had his own individual mind, his own individual volition ("will") and God has his own individual mind, his own individual volition, then Jesus can't be God.

The "mind" is not entirely identical to the "will". The "will" involves feelings that include aspects of the flesh. Jesus "felt" certain things that the Father never has experienced apart from the Son. In the Son, the Father understands. There is somewhat of a paradox here but it is not contradictory to the teaching of the Trinity.

These are not contrary to God in the Person of Jesus Christ. Please provide an example of how you believe Jesus proved these are contrary to God.

I am using the adjective "individual" in the sense of "can't be divided", which is the original sense of the word.

Individuals have varying contexts of existence part from a "whole". For example, our bodies can live with a gall bladder and other organs that make up the "whole". I only use this in the context of what you're classifying as impossibilities relative to a whole.

 

[praise_yeshua]

But I'm not rejecting Jesus Christ. @Studyman is not rejecting Jesus Christ.
Rejecting Jesus Christ means not doing what he taught us to do, which is doing the will of Our Father, Our God.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonderful works in Your name?’ But then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from Me, you who practice evil. (Mat 7:21-23)

Don't deflect from what I wrote. Jesus called himself MASTER........

Deal with that statement. Don't ignore it.

BTW, you're not like Jesus Christ.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I'm sure you have a very long list of "conditions" that must be meet in order to please God. Your requirements are many and difficult.

Don't be so sure.
I believe in salvation by the grace of God.

You are the one who seems to be setting a condition that Jesus Himself NEVER set. Please review the gospels to find out what Jesus demanded from anyone who wanted to be forgiven or healed.

I have one. Only one. That a person believe in the Character of Jesus Christ.

If "believing in the Character of Jesus Christ" means to be in love with his character, so that we desire to follow his steps, I agree.
If "believing in the Character of Jesus Christ" means to adhere to the doctrine of the Trinity, I strongly disagree.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Then don't say it isn't possible. There are many metaphorical and allegorical expression found in the Scriptures. We need to review them in the context of the teaching.

Fantastic. We can then get closer in our mutual understanding, my brother.
When Jesus said that He and his Father were one, was he talking metaphorically or literally?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Don't be so sure.
I believe in salvation by the grace of God.

You are the one who seems to be setting a condition that Jesus Himself NEVER set. Please review the gospels to find out what Jesus demanded from anyone who wanted to be forgiven or healed.

I have many many times. I shared some words you obviously can't accept with you the first time I responded to you.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

You've already denied these words and others in the Gospels. I know them better than you do. I brought this up and you're still ignoring. Either you have grown accustomed to ignoring the condition that Christ placed upon "know Him" or you didn't know this before.

Can you identify which one is true of you?

If "believing in the Character of Jesus Christ" means to be in love with his character, so that we desire to follow his steps, I agree.

But... you're not following his steps. You said that Jesus Christ wasn't necessary. That is what you said. Yet, Jesus said very clearly that He was your Master.

If "believing in the Character of Jesus Christ" means to adhere to the doctrine of the Trinity, I strongly disagree.

I've used the words of Jesus Christ as recorded in the Scriptures. Don't be ambiguous in your responses about your misunderstandings of the Trinity.

 

[synergy]

If "believing in the Character of Jesus Christ" means to adhere to the doctrine of the Trinity, I strongly disagree.

Then you are up against the following statement from Christ:

(John 8:24) Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins.

The name "I Am" is the name of God in the Old Testament. (Ex 3:14).

Your Baha'i adherence to Islamic anti-Trinitarianism will only take you so far.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Fantastic. We can then get closer in our mutual understanding, my brother.
When Jesus said that He and his Father were one, was he talking metaphorically or literally?

Both. There are metaphorical references and literal references....

Can I just state the obvious for a minute.....

Even metaphorical expressions have literal applications. You should have learned this by now.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

There are many varying doctrines among Unitarians. Some are very far removed from any context of the Scriptures. You have me believing that you're Unitarian Universalist?

I am a Baha'i, my friend.

The "mind" is not entirely identical to the "will".

You're right.
I'm not saying that mind and will are identical concepts. I am just saying that Jesus had his own mind, his own will, while the "Only and True God" (the title He gave to His Father) had his own mind, his own will.

Let me give you some examples:

• The "Only and True God" had not revealed to Jesus the time of the Second Coming. So, God had something in his mind that Jesus didn't have.
• Jesus could have chosen to a different course of action, something "The Only and True God" didn't want. That's why Jesus submitted his will to the will of his Father.
• Jesus was not authorized to determine who would be in a higher position in the Kingdom of God. In contrast, the "Only and True God" had that privilege.

These are examples of how Jesus and God can have different thoughts and make different choices, just as you and me.
Even if praise_yeshua and Pancho Frijoles were identical twins, they would not be the same being, because we would have different minds, able to think and feel different things and make different choices. You would be you and I would be me.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Even metaphorical expressions have literal applications. You should have learned this by now.

Yes, absolutely.
So, if we focus on the applications, Trinitarians and Unitarians enjoy the beauty of a life in Christ, whether He is God or not. Do you agree?
Now, if we focus on the literal vs. metaphorical meaning of things, then we engage into theological debate.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Then you are up against the following statement from Christ:

(John 8:24) Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins.

The name "I Am" is the name of God in the Old Testament. (Ex 3:14).

Your Baha'i adherence to Islamic anti-Trinitarianism will only take you so far.

I have already refuted that with robust arguments. Arguments that no one in this Forum has been able to disprove.
If you want me to repeat them here, in a short version or in a long version, please let me know.
If you have a post where my argumentation against the absurd use of John 8:24 has been disproved, please quote it here.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, absolutely.
So, if we focus on the applications, Trinitarians and Unitarians enjoy the beauty of a life in Christ, whether He is God or not. Do you agree?
Now, if we focus on the literal vs. metaphorical meaning of things, then we engage into theological debate.

So when Jesus witnessed being "Master", what does this literally mean?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I have already refuted that with robust arguments. If you want me to repeat them here, in a short version or in a long version, please let me know.

I haven't seen you deal with the essential aspects of believing who Christ is to being "born again".

Do tell. Short version first.

BTW.... Baha'i is an religion centered around an oxymoron. All religions are not capable nor beneficial. Satan has religions......

I must ask you to take a "firm" position somewhere. You don't seem to deal in absolutes. This is common with those who believe in the essential goodness of all religions.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Your Baha'i adherence to Islamic anti-Trinitarianism will only take you so far.

Isn't it self defeating to believe in Baha'i and the essential unity/worth/goodness of all religions and yet attack those who believe in the essential unity of "god"?

Seems utterly preposterous to claim "Unity" for themselves while denying it to anything else......

 

[praise_yeshua]

@civic @synergy

When a Unitarian denies the essentials of the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, then I believe they're qualifying for exclusion from any context of Christianity.

I don't believe @Studyman falls under this category but maybe I'm wrong. I haven't been following these discussions lately.

 

[synergy]

Isn't it self defeating to believe in Baha'i and the essential unity/worth/goodness of all religions and yet attack those who believe in the essential unity of "god"?

Seems utterly preposterous to claim "Unity" for themselves while denying it to anything else......

Yes. There are a lot of back bending uniting of contradictory facts that the Baha'i Faith must do in their attempt to unite all faiths under their authority. Sounds like the Pope.

 

[civic]

@civic @synergy

When a Unitarian denies the essentials of the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, then I believe they're qualifying for exclusion from any context of Christianity.

I don't believe @Studyman falls under this category but maybe I'm wrong. I haven't been following these discussions lately.

I’m not sure about his position on the bodily Resurrection ascension and 2nd coming of Christ.

 

[synergy]

I have already refuted that with robust arguments. Arguments that no one in this Forum has been able to disprove.

If "that" is John 8:24 then for you to refute "that" is not a position that I would be too proud of.

If you want me to repeat them here, in a short version or in a long version, please let me know.
If you have a post where my argumentation against the absurd use of John 8:24 has been disproved, please quote it here.

You can include a link to your arguments, if you don't mind.

 

[synergy]

I’m not sure about his position on the bodily Resurrection ascension and 2nd coming of Christ.

I still haven't been able to get a handle on Studyman's beliefs. If anyone has a statement on what he believes please forward it. He remains an enigma to me.

CC: @praise_yeshua

 

[civic]

I still haven't been able to get a handle on Studyman's beliefs. If anyone has a statement on what he believes please forward it. He remains an enigma to me.

CC: @praise_yeshua

Well it looks like the deity of Christ is denied. That would also be a denial of the Trinity. Also the new covenant replaced the old which he denies. I’m sure there are more core Christian doctrines that are denied as well.