Refuting effectually caused faith

Nothing changed, still:

Man by nature doesnt have the ability to believe in Jesus Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Jesus commented that "the flesh is no help at all" (John 6:63). This directly indicates that His teaching on "eating" His flesh and blood were symbolic, not literal. At the same time, the remark illustrates the difference between legitimate belief and mere "interest." Many people who followed Jesus at that time had a shallow, selfish interest in His ministry.

Throughout this passage, Jesus has challenged their motivations (John 6:26), their understanding of Scripture (John 6:27–29), and what it really means to have faith in the One God has sent (John 6:37–40). Their behaviors in response to these challenges—their "flesh," so to speak—both discourage and disprove their faith.
Understanding the Bible
 
Jesus commented that "the flesh is no help at all" (John 6:63). This directly indicates that His teaching on "eating" His flesh and blood were symbolic, not literal. At the same time, the remark illustrates the difference between legitimate belief and mere "interest." Many people who followed Jesus at that time had a shallow, selfish interest in His ministry.

Throughout this passage, Jesus has challenged their motivations (John 6:26), their understanding of Scripture (John 6:27–29), and what it really means to have faith in the One God has sent (John 6:37–40). Their behaviors in response to these challenges—their "flesh," so to speak—both discourage and disprove their faith.
Understanding the Bible
So are you saying, that any man can come to Jesus without the Father giving them the ability ?
 
So are you saying, that any man can come to Jesus without the Father giving them the ability ?
God draws "all men". God’s eternal power and divine nature are “clearly seen” and “understood” from what has been made, “so that people are without excuse.” Romans 1:2

But men still do deny God. It's their free will choice.

They are willfully ignoring the obvious. God insists that He has made it plain to human reasoning and that to decide otherwise is to suppress the truth we know by nature.

Till we hear the gospel we do not know how to fill that God shaped hole inside of us.
 
God draws "all men". God’s eternal power and divine nature are “clearly seen” and “understood” from what has been made, “so that people are without excuse.” Romans 1:2

But men still do deny God. It's their free will choice.

They are willfully ignoring the obvious. God insists that He has made it plain to human reasoning and that to decide otherwise is to suppress the truth we know by nature.

Till we hear the gospel we do not know how to fill that God shaped hole inside of us.
Right, Jesus said "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.” John 12:32 or "all men"
 
Absolutely, positively, no drought about it. That old mad is dead. I'm a new creation in Christ. Spirit filled with enough discernment to know that Calvinism is a false doctrine.

Under Calvinism, God picks and chooses some people for Heaven, and sends the rest to Hell, for no reason. This is absolutely retarded. This has to be the peak of reprobation. Calvinism “changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man” (Romans 1:23). I swear, there isn’t a single verse that the Calvinist believes on face value. Every single passage in the Bible is twisted by them in the Greek. They do not even believe John 3:16! They think “world” means elect! And “whosoever” means elect! It’s so mind boggling.
 
See there it is. More Calvinism false teaching. When the Word tells us plainly in John 12:32 “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me”

You can do the Jumping I'll stand on God's Word.
Since when did you start believing Jn 12:32 ? Thats effectually caused faith
 
Thats limited effectual atonement. Jesus causing people to believe in Him, His Sheep
Couple of mistakes here @brightfame52--nothing serious.


Though I appreciate your point, I’d like to challenge the idea that Jesus causes people to believe in Him in the deterministic sense you're implying. Let's examine this more closely by looking at the actual Greek verbs and biblical context surrounding Lydia, the disciples, and “His sheep.”

1. Jesus Expounding the Scriptures - Not Irresistible Causation

In Luke 24:27, it says Jesus “διερμήνευσεν αὐτοῖς” — “He explained to them” from Moses and the Prophets. The verb διερμήνευσεν (aorist active indicative from διερμηνεύω) simply means “to interpret or explain thoroughly.” There’s no coercion here — it’s illumination, not compulsion.

In Luke 24:32, their hearts “burned” as He was “opening the Scriptures” — Greek: διήνοιγεν (imperfect active, from διανοίγω) — a continuous action of unfolding meaning. Again, it’s about understanding, not an irresistible push to believe. The disciples responded willingly.

2. Lydia’s Heart — Acts 16:14
It says the Lord “opened her heart” — Greek: διήνοιξεν (aorist active of διανοίγω). But to what end? “To pay attention” — τοῦ προσέχειν (present active infinitive of προσέχω). That verb means “to attend to, give heed.” It’s not “caused her to believe,” but enabled her to listen.

We’re not told belief was automatic - only that her heart was opened so she could respond. Compare with Luke 24:45, where Jesus “opened their minds” - same verb - so they could understand. He doesn’t force belief; He enables comprehension.

3. “My Sheep Hear My Voice” — John 10:27
Jesus says, “My sheep hear (ἀκούουσιν) My voice.” This verb is present active — ongoing hearing.

It’s a description of those already following Him, not a statement that He irresistibly causes them to believe.

In John 8:47, Jesus says, “He who is of God hears the words of God.” He rebukes those who do not hear, not because He didn’t make them believe, but because they are not aligned with God. Hearing is the result of being rightly disposed, not a predetermined act.

4. Romans 10:17 — Faith Comes by Hearing
Faith “comes from hearing” — ἐξ ἀκοῆς. This is not faith being infused, but arising through cognitive response. The verbs used in Romans 10, like πιστεύει (believes), ὁμολογεῖ (confesses), are active voice, which in Greek grammar reflects the subject’s participation — not passivity.

5. Faith as Heart Response — Not Irresistible Gift
Acts 15:9 speaks of God “cleansing their hearts by faith” — τῇ πίστει (instrumental dative). Faith is the means, not the result of cleansing.

And in John 1:12, it’s “as many as received Himto them He gave authority to become children of God.” The verbs ἔλαβον (received) and ἐπίστευσαν (believed) are both aorist active — again, human response in real time, not passive causation.

So with respect, it seems a more accurate reading is that Jesus reveals and enables, yes — but never forces belief. The response remains genuinely human, or it’s not faith at all.

Cross-References for Further Thought:
Luke 24:27, 32, 45; Acts 16:14; John 10:27; 8:47; Romans 10:17; Acts 15:9; John 1:12

Thanks.

J.
 
It says "All men"... your interpretation is just more twisted scripture that Calvinism is based on.
Yes it says all, all whoare caused to believe. Coming to Christ is equivalent to believing on him. So since you brought up the verse, its your responsibility to exegete the verse and show us how it means all without exception are drawn to Him which would be the false teaching of universalism. So get to work
 
Couple of mistakes here @brightfame52--nothing serious.


Though I appreciate your point, I’d like to challenge the idea that Jesus causes people to believe in Him in the deterministic sense you're implying. Let's examine this more closely by looking at the actual Greek verbs and biblical context surrounding Lydia, the disciples, and “His sheep.”

1. Jesus Expounding the Scriptures - Not Irresistible Causation

In Luke 24:27, it says Jesus “διερμήνευσεν αὐτοῖς” — “He explained to them” from Moses and the Prophets. The verb διερμήνευσεν (aorist active indicative from διερμηνεύω) simply means “to interpret or explain thoroughly.” There’s no coercion here — it’s illumination, not compulsion.

In Luke 24:32, their hearts “burned” as He was “opening the Scriptures” — Greek: διήνοιγεν (imperfect active, from διανοίγω) — a continuous action of unfolding meaning. Again, it’s about understanding, not an irresistible push to believe. The disciples responded willingly.

2. Lydia’s Heart — Acts 16:14
It says the Lord “opened her heart” — Greek: διήνοιξεν (aorist active of διανοίγω). But to what end? “To pay attention” — τοῦ προσέχειν (present active infinitive of προσέχω). That verb means “to attend to, give heed.” It’s not “caused her to believe,” but enabled her to listen.

We’re not told belief was automatic - only that her heart was opened so she could respond. Compare with Luke 24:45, where Jesus “opened their minds” - same verb - so they could understand. He doesn’t force belief; He enables comprehension.

3. “My Sheep Hear My Voice” — John 10:27
Jesus says, “My sheep hear (ἀκούουσιν) My voice.” This verb is present active — ongoing hearing.

It’s a description of those already following Him, not a statement that He irresistibly causes them to believe.


In John 8:47, Jesus says, “He who is of God hears the words of God.” He rebukes those who do not hear, not because He didn’t make them believe, but because they are not aligned with God. Hearing is the result of being rightly disposed, not a predetermined act.

4. Romans 10:17 — Faith Comes by Hearing
Faith “comes from hearing” — ἐξ ἀκοῆς. This is not faith being infused, but arising through cognitive response. The verbs used in Romans 10, like πιστεύει (believes), ὁμολογεῖ (confesses), are active voice, which in Greek grammar reflects the subject’s participation — not passivity.

5. Faith as Heart Response — Not Irresistible Gift
Acts 15:9 speaks of God “cleansing their hearts by faith” — τῇ πίστει (instrumental dative). Faith is the means, not the result of cleansing.

And in John 1:12, it’s “as many as received Himto them He gave authority to become children of God.” The verbs ἔλαβον (received) and ἐπίστευσαν (believed) are both aorist active — again, human response in real time, not passive causation.

So with respect, it seems a more accurate reading is that Jesus reveals and enables, yes — but never forces belief. The response remains genuinely human, or it’s not faith at all.

Cross-References for Further Thought:
Luke 24:27, 32, 45; Acts 16:14; John 10:27; 8:47; Romans 10:17; Acts 15:9; John 1:12

Thanks.

J.
Thats limited effectual atonement. Jesus causing people to believe in Him, His Sheep. Nothing here alters that
 
Yes it says all, all whoare caused to believe. Coming to Christ is equivalent to believing on him. So since you brought up the verse, its your responsibility to exegete the verse and show us how it means all without exception are drawn to Him which would be the false teaching of universalism. So get to work
Even one of the Roman soldiers were drawn.

The centurion would have been a polytheist. He was comfortable believing in many gods. For him to say that Jesus was “a” son of God would be no big deal. There would be many in his pantheon of gods. Even the emperor, Caesar Augustus, called himself a son of God.

But for this centurion to say that Jesus was “the” Son of God is truly amazing. This is a confession of faith, as much as is the confession the thief on the cross made.

Isn’t this so often the case in the Gospels, that people who you’d never expect to be open to the Messiah actually profess genuine faith in him, while the very people who should have most recognized him, his own Jewish people, did not?

Everyone "Knows" about Jesus in this day and age, as seen by Easter tomorrow and charismas. And they are able to make a decision to became a believer.
 
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