Gods Inability to save

[civic]

No one comes near Him for salvation unless God is already at work in that individual for the purpose of salvation or judgment.

You are invited to provide an example of a non-saved sinner initiating his/her own coming to God for salvation absent God having already been at work in that individual.

Keep in mind the fact most of the Bible is about people already living in a God-initiated Christological covenant. Very few examples exist of interactions with God outside the covenant relationship..... but you're invited to provide such an example if you can find one.

More doctrinal presuppositions at work in your response. The fact is God doesn’t save everyone. A major problem in Monergism which contradicts so many passages about God willing, wanting and desiring to save but does not interfere with man’s willingness to come. That’s why synergism is the biblical model and the early church model. The fact is Gods chosen/ elect people rejected Him to many times to count inspite of His love, mercy and grace most died in unbelief and rejecting their God.

 

[TedT]

Christianity believes man has free will.
Paul taught that man has free will.

I suggest that people believe in our human free will (before rebirth) so they interpret the scriptures from that pov though they must make a hash out of the meaning of our Lord's words about being sinners being enslaved to sin, sigh.

 

[TedT]

I thought you believed in free will.
I thought you believed that man become lost at his first sin.
Isn't this free will?

I don't just think these things are true, I think that our free will and everyone's personal fall into sin was only by our own FREE WILL choice and against GOD's will are an absolutely necessity for GOD to ever fulfill HIS purpose for the creation of every person in HIS image, our heavenly marriage with HIM. But believing mankind has any hint of a free will before rebirth contradicts scripture.

Our Creation with a free will and our fall into the slavery of sin:
- every person ever created in HIS image was created with an equal ability and opportunity to make a faith based decision accepting GOD's proclamation of HIS divinity and the gospel of election and salvation for all who put their faith, their unproven hope, in HIM telling us the truth,
OR
to put their faith, their unproven hope in HIM being a liar and therefore a false god and as the first liar in creation, he is the most evil person in creation...

- the reprobate, those condemned already for never having faith in HIM, Jn 3:16, are those who repudiated HIM as their Lord and Savior which put them outside of HIS saving grace for eternity as their free will decision to repudiate HIM must be sacrosanct and inviable or it cannot be called free will decision. Now they were enslaved to sin with no free will for eternity.

- The elect were chosen to be HIS eternal Bride, His sheep, the people of His kingdom because of their faith in HIM and HIS promise of election to salvation but some of the elect rebelled against HIS call for them to come out from among the reprobate so they could be judged and some would not come out from them becoming His sheep gone astray into sin, enslaved to sin with no free will.

Other elect went astray into sin when they rebelled against HIS call for them to come out from among their sinful elect siblings (enslaving themselves to sinfulness with no free will)...until all people had made their own personal free will decisions as to just how deep they were committed to HIM. These sinful choices by some of HIS elect forced HIM to postpone the judgement day until the last of HIS elect could be made holy or they too would be caught in the judgement against evil which would contradict HIS promise of election that their sins would never condemn them.

This was personified later in the Garden for us where we have the serpent, totally evil and against GOD at the core of his being, Eve, who even though she was now in GOD's family, did not want any break with her friend the serpent whom she trusted as a mentor and pastor over the Holy Spirit and Adam who would not follow the serpent like Eve did but who also would not be separated from his friend Eve so he chose to follow her into sin to share her consequences for choosing to be sinful.

- Then ALL the sons of GOD saw the creation of the physical universe proving HIS deity and eternal power, Job 38:7, which sealed their self chosen FATES, their self chosen relationship with GOD, forever. Earth was then chosen to be the prison planet for all sinners to sequester HIS paradise and the holy elect angels from the predations of the sinful.

Rev 12:4-6 tells us that all sinners enslaved to sinfulness and only sinners, were flung down into the earth to be sowed, not created, into mankind according to GOD's plan, Matt 13:36-39, who postponed the judgement day, Matt 13:27-30, giving HIS sinful elect time to live with the reprobate who were HIS examples to them of the consequences of sin in our hearts as an aid in our redemption, our rebirth which restored our free will and sanctification so we could rejoin HIS family and enter the heavenly marriage after evil will be removed when the last sinful elect has repented fully and the reprobate are finally banished into the outer darkness forever.

This sums up my belief in our free will, our wills enslaved to sin and the consequences of events for our choices.

 

[TedT]

BTW,,,I NEVER got a reply to my question as to why God does not save everyone
IF Paul states that God DESIRES to save everyone.

Didn't I suggest that HIS desire for their salvation was thwarted by their free will desire that HE have nothing to do with them or their future because they decided by a free will decision by faith ie an unproven hope, that he was a liar and therefore a false god, thereby enslaving themselves to evil for ever as outside of HIS saving grace and unable to chose repentance and saving faith from within themselves.

Sorry, I must have missed it...

 

[TedT]

As Gen 2:17, Rom 6:23 and other passages tell us, we die and are condemned when we sin. Each person is condemned because of his own sin, not his father's, not his son's (Eze 18:20). So each person dies when he himself sins, and each person is condemned because of his own actions (2 Cor 5:10, Rom 2:6, Rev 20,13).

Though I agree, I wonder that since infants in the womb die, when did they get their chance to choose sin and death?

 

[TedT]

Indeed it does. But in the context, these passages are not talking about just some of the people outside of Israel. It says the "whole world"; it says "all people".

Since you like an all inclusive ALL, I wonder if you apply that definition to Job 38:7 Berean Standard Bible ...while the morning stars sang together and ALL the sons of God shouted for joy? describing our response to HIS glory we saw in the creation of the physical universe?

 

[Doug Brents]

Though I agree, I wonder that since infants in the womb die, when did they get their chance to choose sin and death?

I believe that infants and the unborn are "safe". They have never reached a point where they understand the difference between good and evil, so they are incapable of sin. That being the case, they have not yet died spiritually. So when they die, they go to Heaven. An example of this is demonstrated in the child of David's who died. David said that since God will not bring the child back to him, he will go to the child (2 Sam 12:23). He believed that his child went to Heaven, and so he would go to his child.

Now, I may be completely off base in this. This is just what I believe based on what I have read in Scripture.

 

[TedT]

in case you missed it

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie,
32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things are worthy of death, they not only continue to do these things, but also approve of those who practice them.

1. They know
2. It is clearly seen, so as to be able to understand.
3. They exchange the truth. willingly.. they hide the truth in their heart.

So not everyone who knows the truth will be saved eh?

 

[brightfame52]

They’ll hear the Gospel in the Millennium before the Great White Throne Judgment.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (NKJV) 31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 “not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 “But this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 “No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

The millennium is now, it started at Christs ascension and at His 2nd coming return it will be manifested with the Judgment 2 Tim 4:1

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

 

[MTMattie]

The millennium is now, it started at Christs ascension and at His 2nd coming return it will be manifested with the Judgment 2 Tim 4:1

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

I thought the millennium was 1000 years. We already are almost at the 2000 year if you believe the crucifixion was in 33 AD, (I dont) So it better happen soon cause you soon will need a new terminology.

No, not saying you are wrong... just sayin.

 

[TedT]

I believe that infants and the unborn are "safe". They have never reached a point where they understand the difference between good and evil, so they are incapable of sin. That being the case, they have not yet died spiritually. So when they die, they go to Heaven. An example of this is demonstrated in the child of David's who died. David said that since God will not bring the child back to him, he will go to the child (2 Sam 12:23). He believed that his child went to Heaven, and so he would go to his child.

Now, I may be completely off base in this. This is just what I believe based on what I have read in Scripture.

Thank you...very clearly expressed but if "they are incapable of sin." yet they receive the wages of, the judgement upon, sinfulness...it seems slightly unfair and unjust, no?

 

[Selah]

The millennium is now, it started at Christs ascension and at His 2nd coming return it will be manifested with the Judgment 2 Tim 4:1

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Nah.

 

[civic]

Nah.

Scary isn’t it the Lion is laying with the lamb, peace for 1,000 years it’s bliss here on earth. The devil has been bound too.

Yikes

 

[Selah]

Scary isn’t it the Lion is laying with the lamb, peace for 1,000 years it’s bliss here on earth. The devil has been bound too.

Yikes

If only BF would study even just a little bit.

 

[GodsGrace]

I understand your reply and it's a lame attempt at dodging my question.

You question has been answered several times now.

You don't seem to understand what Jesus and Paul have stated.


Here's what Jesus stated as the the FINAL JUDGEMENT OF EVERYONE:
Or do you believe ONLY Christians will be judged??


John 5:28-29 JESUS taught.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


Apparently you have a problem with Romans 1:18-20 which is very clear...
so let's try this instead.

JESUS is saying above that ALL who are dead will hear His voice and will come into judgment.
ALL.
All men will be judged.

Then Jesus goes on to say HOW they will be judged.
No talk of predestination.

Those who did good works/deeds to a life of resurrection.ù
Those who did evil to a resurrection of judgement.


Now let's see what PAUL taught:

Romans 2:5-8
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.


Paul teaches exactly what Jesus taught (of course).

We store up FOR OURSELVES. For ourselves....not because God decreed anything.
God will righteously judge.
EACH PERSON.
ALL.
EVERYONE.

Those who did good works (doing good)...eternal life.
Those who did NOT OBEY...wrath and indignation.


ALL will be judged.
ALL.
ALL, even those that never heard of Jesus.

Both Jesus and Paul explain HOW they will be judged.

If you believe the world began with Jesus 2,000 years ago...
that is something YOU will have to contend with.

Jesus and Paul are speaking about EVERYONE...ALL who ever lived.

If you have scripture proving the opposite, please post it.

 

[Presby02]

You question has been answered several times now.

You don't seem to understand what Jesus and Paul have stated.


Here's what Jesus stated as the the FINAL JUDGEMENT OF EVERYONE:
Or do you believe ONLY Christians will be judged??


John 5:28-29 JESUS taught.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


Apparently you have a problem with Romans 1:18-20 which is very clear...
so let's try this instead.

JESUS is saying above that ALL who are dead will hear His voice and will come into judgment.
ALL.
All men will be judged.

Then Jesus goes on to say HOW they will be judged.
No talk of predestination.

Those who did good works/deeds to a life of resurrection.ù
Those who did evil to a resurrection of judgement.


Now let's see what PAUL taught:

Romans 2:5-8
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.


Paul teaches exactly what Jesus taught (of course).

We store up FOR OURSELVES. For ourselves....not because God decreed anything.
God will righteously judge.
EACH PERSON.
ALL.
EVERYONE.

Those who did good works (doing good)...eternal life.
Those who did NOT OBEY...wrath and indignation.


ALL will be judged.
ALL.
ALL, even those that never heard of Jesus.

Both Jesus and Paul explain HOW they will be judged.

If you believe the world began with Jesus 2,000 years ago...
that is something YOU will have to contend with.

Jesus and Paul are speaking about EVERYONE...ALL who ever lived.

If you have scripture proving the opposite, please post it.

All will be judged. All do not hear the gospel however. Until you address that fact I think we are done here. Chasing your rabbit traiks is getting old.

Good talk

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe some folks are Elect and some are nonElect. But today (after the foundation of the world), everyone (whosoever) has free will and can choose to repent and believe in Christ. That’s why Jesus came.
John 3:16-17 (NKJV) 16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

WHO are the elect?
Who are the unelect?

Who are "these folk" you mention above??

 

[GodsGrace]

How can they reply if you have never heard of Him? LOL Still dodging. What of the millions throught history who never hear the gospel? Faith comes by hearing right???????

I answered all your questions. Do you have honesty issues? I mentioned your alleged proof texts in my last post.

Some replies? How about any relevant reply? LOL

See my last post to you.

It will be the last one and I'll be expecting a reply.

Also, you've NEVER replied to MY question:

If God desires that ALL MEN be saved...
WHY aren't they?

Is God unable?
Does God not know what He desires?

Waiting.

 

[Presby02]

See my last post to you.

It will be the last one and I'll be expecting a reply.

Also, you've NEVER replied to MY question:

If God desires that ALL MEN be saved...
WHY aren't they?

Is God unable?
Does God not know what He desires?

Waiting.

First, which I asked first, do you concede millions have never heard the gospel let alone the God of the Bible? I can help if you like. Lol

 

[Selah]

WHO are the elect?
Who are the unelect?

Who are "these folk" you mention above??

We have gone over this so many times. What is it that’s not clear to you? Why won’t you believe what’s written? The Elect are those who love God with all their heart, the called out ones.

You either believe God’s Word or you don’t. It’s getting late in the game. Let’s read it:

Romans 8:28-39 (NKJV) 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to [His] purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God [is] for us, who [can be] against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? [It is] God who justifies. 34 Who [is] he who condemns? [It is] Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [Shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written: “For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.” 37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.