Predestination and Determinism

[TomL]

Tom,

I am discussing cause and effect and you are stuck on temporal semantics.
I acknowledge that I believed BEFORE God sealed me with His Holy Spirit [technically, in my case, God was 100% responsible for both events ... I was busy building a suicide bomb at the time, so "seeking God" was not on my radar].
That is about the order of events in time.

I am asking about what actions cause what effects, specifically:

Did YOUR belief cause YOUR salvation?

An effect cannot precede its cause


Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

So faith is clearly the instrumental cause of being sealed in Christ

example

Faith as an Instrumental cause


John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.



The efficient (primary) cause of our eternal salvation the Scripture uniformly proclaims to be the mercy and free love of the heavenly Father towards us; the material cause to be Christ, with the obedience by which he purchased righteousness for us; and what can the formal or instrumental cause be but faith? John includes the three in one sentence when he says, “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life,” (John 3:16).


That is not the word of an Arminian or a provisionist but of


John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).


Similarly The Calvinist Theologian Berkouwer states


3. TO FAITH. Faith is the mediate or instrumental cause of sanctification as well as of justification. It does not merit sanctification any more than it does justification, but it unites us to Christ and keeps us in touch with Him as the Head of the new humanity, who is the source of the new life within us, and also of our progressive sanctification, through the operation of the Holy Spirit



L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans publishing co., 1938), 537.

There is not just a correlation between faith and justification, faith and regeneration , faith and salvation

There is a causal relationship even Calvinist theologians have affirmed

 

[civic]

How is the gospel message unmerited favor?

Everything in salvation is Gods grace. no one deserves the gospel since all have sinned. The gospel is the means of Gods grace He uses to save a sinner.

1-For it is by GRACE you have been saved- Eph 2:8

2-And that ( salvation, saved ) is not of yourselves

3-it is the gift ( grace ) of God.

1 Peter 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit

John 1:12-13
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believe in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God

Notice what comes first in scripture - the order of how one becomes saved.

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ,regeneration, new life, born again etc....
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

John below the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.


Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.

1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life, regeneration, born again

hope this helps !!!

 

[atpollard]

That is not the word of an Arminian or a provisionist but of


John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).

Similarly The Calvinist Theologian Berkouwer states

You apparently missed the part where I am a PARTICULAR BAPTIST and the only theologians whose opinions matter to me are bound into the Holy Bible.

Did YOUR belief cause YOUR salvation?

Thus my focus on all of Ephesians chapters 1 and 2 rather than a pet phrase from a pet verse.

1 This letter is from Paul, chosen by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus.​

I am writing to God’s holy people in Ephesus,[fn] who are faithful followers of Christ Jesus.​

2 May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.​

3 All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ. 4 Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. 5 God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure. 6 So we praise God for the glorious grace he has poured out on us who belong to his dear Son.[fn] 7 He is so rich in kindness and grace that he purchased our freedom with the blood of his Son and forgave our sins. 8 He has showered his kindness on us, along with all wisdom and understanding.​

9 God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure. 10 And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ—everything in heaven and on earth. 11 Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God,[fn] for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan.​

12 God’s purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God. 13 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own[fn] by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago. 14 The Spirit is God’s guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.​

15 Ever since I first heard of your strong faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for God’s people everywhere,[fn] 16 I have not stopped thanking God for you. I pray for you constantly, 17 asking God, the glorious Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, to give you spiritual wisdom[fn] and insight so that you might grow in your knowledge of God. 18 I pray that your hearts will be flooded with light so that you can understand the confident hope he has given to those he called—his holy people who are his rich and glorious inheritance.[fn]​

19 I also pray that you will understand the incredible greatness of God’s power for us who believe him. This is the same mighty power 20 that raised Christ from the dead and seated him in the place of honor at God’s right hand in the heavenly realms. 21 Now he is far above any ruler or authority or power or leader or anything else—not only in this world but also in the world to come. 22 God has put all things under the authority of Christ and has made him head over all things for the benefit of the church. 23 And the church is his body; it is made full and complete by Christ, who fills all things everywhere with himself.​

1 Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. 2 You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world.[fn] He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. 3 All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.​

4 But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, 5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) 6 For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. 7 So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.​

8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.​

11 Don’t forget that you Gentiles used to be outsiders. You were called “uncircumcised heathens” by the Jews, who were proud of their circumcision, even though it affected only their bodies and not their hearts. 12 In those days you were living apart from Christ. You were excluded from citizenship among the people of Israel, and you did not know the covenant promises God had made to them. You lived in this world without God and without hope. 13 But now you have been united with Christ Jesus. Once you were far away from God, but now you have been brought near to him through the blood of Christ.​

14 For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us. 15 He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups. 16 Together as one body, Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death on the cross, and our hostility toward each other was put to death.​

17 He brought this Good News of peace to you Gentiles who were far away from him, and peace to the Jews who were near. 18 Now all of us can come to the Father through the same Holy Spirit because of what Christ has done for us.​

19 So now you Gentiles are no longer strangers and foreigners. You are citizens along with all of God’s holy people. You are members of God’s family. 20 Together, we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself. 21 We are carefully joined together in him, becoming a holy temple for the Lord. 22 Through him you Gentiles are also being made part of this dwelling where God lives by his Spirit.​

WHO is the cause and WHO is the effect?

 

[civic]

You apparently missed the part where I am a PARTICULAR BAPTIST and the only theologians whose opinions matter to me are bound into the Holy Bible.

Did YOUR belief cause YOUR salvation?

Thus my focus on all of Ephesians chapters 1 and 2 rather than a pet phrase from a pet verse.

1 This letter is from Paul, chosen by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus.​

I am writing to God’s holy people in Ephesus,[fn] who are faithful followers of Christ Jesus.​

2 May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.​

3 All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ. 4 Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. 5 God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure. 6 So we praise God for the glorious grace he has poured out on us who belong to his dear Son.[fn] 7 He is so rich in kindness and grace that he purchased our freedom with the blood of his Son and forgave our sins. 8 He has showered his kindness on us, along with all wisdom and understanding.​

9 God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure. 10 And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ—everything in heaven and on earth. 11 Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God,[fn] for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan.​

12 God’s purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God. 13 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own[fn] by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago. 14 The Spirit is God’s guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.​

15 Ever since I first heard of your strong faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for God’s people everywhere,[fn] 16 I have not stopped thanking God for you. I pray for you constantly, 17 asking God, the glorious Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, to give you spiritual wisdom[fn] and insight so that you might grow in your knowledge of God. 18 I pray that your hearts will be flooded with light so that you can understand the confident hope he has given to those he called—his holy people who are his rich and glorious inheritance.[fn]​

19 I also pray that you will understand the incredible greatness of God’s power for us who believe him. This is the same mighty power 20 that raised Christ from the dead and seated him in the place of honor at God’s right hand in the heavenly realms. 21 Now he is far above any ruler or authority or power or leader or anything else—not only in this world but also in the world to come. 22 God has put all things under the authority of Christ and has made him head over all things for the benefit of the church. 23 And the church is his body; it is made full and complete by Christ, who fills all things everywhere with himself.​

1 Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. 2 You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world.[fn] He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. 3 All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.​

4 But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, 5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) 6 For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. 7 So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.​

8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.​

11 Don’t forget that you Gentiles used to be outsiders. You were called “uncircumcised heathens” by the Jews, who were proud of their circumcision, even though it affected only their bodies and not their hearts. 12 In those days you were living apart from Christ. You were excluded from citizenship among the people of Israel, and you did not know the covenant promises God had made to them. You lived in this world without God and without hope. 13 But now you have been united with Christ Jesus. Once you were far away from God, but now you have been brought near to him through the blood of Christ.​

14 For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us. 15 He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups. 16 Together as one body, Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death on the cross, and our hostility toward each other was put to death.​

17 He brought this Good News of peace to you Gentiles who were far away from him, and peace to the Jews who were near. 18 Now all of us can come to the Father through the same Holy Spirit because of what Christ has done for us.​

19 So now you Gentiles are no longer strangers and foreigners. You are citizens along with all of God’s holy people. You are members of God’s family. 20 Together, we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself. 21 We are carefully joined together in him, becoming a holy temple for the Lord. 22 Through him you Gentiles are also being made part of this dwelling where God lives by his Spirit.​

WHO is the cause and WHO is the effect?

false dichotomy - Faith and the gospel are the condition and the means used by God to save a person. God saves, man believe. No faith no salvation. Faith is mans responsibility.

 

[TomL]

You apparently missed the part where I am a PARTICULAR BAPTIST and the only theologians whose opinions matter to me are bound into the Holy Bible.

Did YOUR belief cause YOUR salvation?

Thus my focus on all of Ephesians chapters 1 and 2 rather than a pet phrase from a pet verse.

1 This letter is from Paul, chosen by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus.​

I am writing to God’s holy people in Ephesus,[fn] who are faithful followers of Christ Jesus.​

2 May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.​

3 All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ. 4 Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. 5 God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure. 6 So we praise God for the glorious grace he has poured out on us who belong to his dear Son.[fn] 7 He is so rich in kindness and grace that he purchased our freedom with the blood of his Son and forgave our sins. 8 He has showered his kindness on us, along with all wisdom and understanding.​

9 God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure. 10 And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ—everything in heaven and on earth. 11 Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God,[fn] for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan.​

12 God’s purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God. 13 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own[fn] by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago. 14 The Spirit is God’s guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.​

15 Ever since I first heard of your strong faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for God’s people everywhere,[fn] 16 I have not stopped thanking God for you. I pray for you constantly, 17 asking God, the glorious Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, to give you spiritual wisdom[fn] and insight so that you might grow in your knowledge of God. 18 I pray that your hearts will be flooded with light so that you can understand the confident hope he has given to those he called—his holy people who are his rich and glorious inheritance.[fn]​

19 I also pray that you will understand the incredible greatness of God’s power for us who believe him. This is the same mighty power 20 that raised Christ from the dead and seated him in the place of honor at God’s right hand in the heavenly realms. 21 Now he is far above any ruler or authority or power or leader or anything else—not only in this world but also in the world to come. 22 God has put all things under the authority of Christ and has made him head over all things for the benefit of the church. 23 And the church is his body; it is made full and complete by Christ, who fills all things everywhere with himself.​

1 Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. 2 You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world.[fn] He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. 3 All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.​

4 But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, 5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) 6 For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. 7 So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.​

8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.​

11 Don’t forget that you Gentiles used to be outsiders. You were called “uncircumcised heathens” by the Jews, who were proud of their circumcision, even though it affected only their bodies and not their hearts. 12 In those days you were living apart from Christ. You were excluded from citizenship among the people of Israel, and you did not know the covenant promises God had made to them. You lived in this world without God and without hope. 13 But now you have been united with Christ Jesus. Once you were far away from God, but now you have been brought near to him through the blood of Christ.​

14 For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us. 15 He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups. 16 Together as one body, Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death on the cross, and our hostility toward each other was put to death.​

17 He brought this Good News of peace to you Gentiles who were far away from him, and peace to the Jews who were near. 18 Now all of us can come to the Father through the same Holy Spirit because of what Christ has done for us.​

19 So now you Gentiles are no longer strangers and foreigners. You are citizens along with all of God’s holy people. You are members of God’s family. 20 Together, we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself. 21 We are carefully joined together in him, becoming a holy temple for the Lord. 22 Through him you Gentiles are also being made part of this dwelling where God lives by his Spirit.​

WHO is the cause and WHO is the effect?

what did you do with


An effect cannot precede its cause


Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

So faith is clearly the instrumental cause of being sealed in Christ

Are you conceeding the fact that one must have faith before being sealed in Christ?

BTW Are you claiming Calvin and Berkhouer were non particular

PS you should have read this

The efficient (primary) cause of our eternal salvation the Scripture uniformly proclaims to be the mercy and free love of the heavenly Father towards us; the material cause to be Christ, with the obedience by which he purchased righteousness for us; and what can the formal or instrumental cause be but faith? John includes the three in one sentence when he says, “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life,” (John 3:16).

 

[Manasseh]

Determinism says that whatever deity exists is the cause of everything. Calvinism is a form of theistic determinism. Two specific teachings of Calvinism identify it as a deterministic system. First is the crucial tenet that God is the ultimate CAUSE of everything that happens. As an example of this teaching, see this statement by John Calvin: “Nothing can happen except God determines it” He says, “We acknowledge the will of God to be the ruling cause of all things,” the “one principle and all high cause of all things in heaven and earth!”

A modern day Calvinist Gordon H. Clark says, “God plans, decrees, and controls all events.”

Calvin again: “The world is so governed by God, that nothing is done therein but by his secret counsel and decree.” That “everything” is determined literally means everything, including every human decision and act—even sins. Calvin says, “Men can accomplish nothing except by God’s sacred command…. They cannot by deliberating accomplish anything except what he has already decreed with himself and determines by his secret direction” . He says, “Whatsoever men do, they do according to the eternal will and secret purpose of God”
From Eternal Predestination by John Calvin.

Also, “When men act perversely, they do so … by the ordaining purpose of God” From Secret Providence. By John Calvin

Also, “Satan performs his part by God’s impulsion” .

Finally, “Adam fell, not only by the permission of God, but by His very secret counsel and decree” “Secret Providence,”.

But how can this be consistent with the holiness of God, and with Bible texts such as 1 Timothy 2:4, which says that God our Savior “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”? And 2 Peter 3:9, which says that God is “not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance”? And 1 Thessalonians 4:3, “For this is the will of God, your sanctification”?

How can sin and unbelief be caused by the decree and will of God? In answer to this question we can say two things. First, according to Calvinists, God has TWO wills: His revealed, preceptive will, which shows us his stated desires and commands (as in the texts just cited), and his hidden, secret, purposive, decretive will, by which He determines all things that will actually happen.

These are two levels of God’s will. He may will one thing through His open revelation, and will just the opposite in his decretive will.5 Second, according to Calvinists, most events actually have TWO causes: the primary, ultimate cause, which is always God; and a secondary, proximate cause, e.g., human beings.

This is how Calvinists excuse God from the blame for sin. Every act of man “is the product of both causes.” I.e., “God also enables and prompts His rational creatures, as second causes, to function, and that not merely by endowing them with energy in a general way, but by energizing them to certain specific acts.” “Each deed is in its entirety both a deed of God and a deed of the creature.” The problem, though, is that this whole concept of “second causes” is a determinist fiction.

In the Calvinist system this universal divine causation is summed up in the basic Calvinist doctrine of the eternal decree. The Westminster Confession of Faith says, “God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass”.

The point is that even before He created anything, God formulated a detailed blueprint of everything that would ever happen within the creation. Every detail, down to the most minute event, was predetermined, pre-programed, and predestined by God. The characteristics of this decree are as follows.
One, it is eternal, i.e., formulated in eternity past, prior to the actual existence of any created thing.

Two, it is comprehensive, encompassing all things without exception.

Three, it is efficacious, i.e., it is the real cause of everything. “He has determined in Himself from all eternity everything which will be.”

And four, it is unconditional, i.e., completely uninfluenced and underived from anything outside of God. As an analogy, this eternal decree is God’s writing of a mammoth computer program; world history in every detail is just the running of the program.

I said above that two specific teachings of Calvinism identify it as a deterministic system. One is His absolute and all-inclusive causation of all things; the second crucial tenet of Calvinism as a determinism is this: There is no such thing as significant human free will. Some Calvinists simply deny free will.

Calvin himself says, “The internal affections of men are no less ruled by the hand of God than their external actions are preceded by His eternal decree; and moreover, … God performs not by the hands of men the things which He has decreed, without first working in their hearts the very will which precedes the acts they are to perform” from Secret Providence.

Gordon H. Clark says, “It is so obvious that the Bible contradicts the notion of free will that its acceptance by professing Christians can be explained only by the continuing ravages of sin blinding the minds of men”. In these modern times many Calvinists want to affirm free will, but they have to redefine it in such a way that the “freedom” is totally negated and the result is no longer significant free will.

What is this new definition? It is affirmed that man is a free moral agent, free to choose anything he so desires. Thus “free will” is then defined as the ability to choose according to one’s own inner nature, desires, and motives. As long as a person is able voluntarily to choose anything he wants to choose, his will is free. (This view of free will is called “compatibilism,” because it is said to be compatible with the deterministic view of God.)

From An article at The Christian Restoration Association / Calvinism and The Bible

 

[TomL]

Determinism says that whatever deity exists is the cause of everything. Calvinism is a form of theistic determinism. Two specific teachings of Calvinism identify it as a deterministic system. First is the crucial tenet that God is the ultimate CAUSE of everything that happens. As an example of this teaching, see this statement by John Calvin: “Nothing can happen except God determines it” He says, “We acknowledge the will of God to be the ruling cause of all things,” the “one principle and all high cause of all things in heaven and earth!”

A modern day Calvinist Gordon H. Clark says, “God plans, decrees, and controls all events.”

Calvin again: “The world is so governed by God, that nothing is done therein but by his secret counsel and decree.” That “everything” is determined literally means everything, including every human decision and act—even sins. Calvin says, “Men can accomplish nothing except by God’s sacred command…. They cannot by deliberating accomplish anything except what he has already decreed with himself and determines by his secret direction” . He says, “Whatsoever men do, they do according to the eternal will and secret purpose of God”
From Eternal Predestination by John Calvin.

Also, “When men act perversely, they do so … by the ordaining purpose of God” From Secret Providence. By John Calvin

Also, “Satan performs his part by God’s impulsion” .

Finally, “Adam fell, not only by the permission of God, but by His very secret counsel and decree” “Secret Providence,”.

But how can this be consistent with the holiness of God, and with Bible texts such as 1 Timothy 2:4, which says that God our Savior “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”? And 2 Peter 3:9, which says that God is “not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance”? And 1 Thessalonians 4:3, “For this is the will of God, your sanctification”?

How can sin and unbelief be caused by the decree and will of God? In answer to this question we can say two things. First, according to Calvinists, God has TWO wills: His revealed, preceptive will, which shows us his stated desires and commands (as in the texts just cited), and his hidden, secret, purposive, decretive will, by which He determines all things that will actually happen.

These are two levels of God’s will. He may will one thing through His open revelation, and will just the opposite in his decretive will.5 Second, according to Calvinists, most events actually have TWO causes: the primary, ultimate cause, which is always God; and a secondary, proximate cause, e.g., human beings.

This is how Calvinists excuse God from the blame for sin. Every act of man “is the product of both causes.” I.e., “God also enables and prompts His rational creatures, as second causes, to function, and that not merely by endowing them with energy in a general way, but by energizing them to certain specific acts.” “Each deed is in its entirety both a deed of God and a deed of the creature.” The problem, though, is that this whole concept of “second causes” is a determinist fiction.

In the Calvinist system this universal divine causation is summed up in the basic Calvinist doctrine of the eternal decree. The Westminster Confession of Faith says, “God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass”.

The point is that even before He created anything, God formulated a detailed blueprint of everything that would ever happen within the creation. Every detail, down to the most minute event, was predetermined, pre-programed, and predestined by God. The characteristics of this decree are as follows.
One, it is eternal, i.e., formulated in eternity past, prior to the actual existence of any created thing.

Two, it is comprehensive, encompassing all things without exception.

Three, it is efficacious, i.e., it is the real cause of everything. “He has determined in Himself from all eternity everything which will be.”

And four, it is unconditional, i.e., completely uninfluenced and underived from anything outside of God. As an analogy, this eternal decree is God’s writing of a mammoth computer program; world history in every detail is just the running of the program.

I said above that two specific teachings of Calvinism identify it as a deterministic system. One is His absolute and all-inclusive causation of all things; the second crucial tenet of Calvinism as a determinism is this: There is no such thing as significant human free will. Some Calvinists simply deny free will.

Calvin himself says, “The internal affections of men are no less ruled by the hand of God than their external actions are preceded by His eternal decree; and moreover, … God performs not by the hands of men the things which He has decreed, without first working in their hearts the very will which precedes the acts they are to perform” from Secret Providence.

Gordon H. Clark says, “It is so obvious that the Bible contradicts the notion of free will that its acceptance by professing Christians can be explained only by the continuing ravages of sin blinding the minds of men”. In these modern times many Calvinists want to affirm free will, but they have to redefine it in such a way that the “freedom” is totally negated and the result is no longer significant free will.

What is this new definition? It is affirmed that man is a free moral agent, free to choose anything he so desires. Thus “free will” is then defined as the ability to choose according to one’s own inner nature, desires, and motives. As long as a person is able voluntarily to choose anything he wants to choose, his will is free. (This view of free will is called “compatibilism,” because it is said to be compatible with the deterministic view of God.)

From An article at The Christian Restoration Association / Calvinism and The Bible

But the desires are determined by God. And man is seen as only doing what is his greatest desire

 

[Biblelesson]

@Manasseh

“Whom God did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son: moreover whom he did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them he also glorified”
Romans 8:29–30

No servant of Christ, probably, since the days of the apostles, and of the Gospel witnesses of their century, has been more grossly misrepresented, or more maliciously maligned, than the faithful, fearless, and beloved than John Calvin.

Through the books that John Calvin has written he still teaches us what predestination means. In its most elementary form, is that our final destination, heaven or hell, is decided by God not only before we get there, but before we are even born. He teaches that our ultimate destiny is in the hands of God.

Another way of saying it is this: From all eternity, before we ever live, God decided to save some members of the human race and to let the rest of the human race perish. God made a choice—he chose some individuals to be saved unto everlasting blessedness in heaven and others he chose to pass over, to allow them to follow the consequences of their sins into eternal torment in hell.

I've noticed many times in discussions on Calvinism and predestination, there is great concern about protecting the dignity and freedom of man. But we must also observe the crucial importance of the sovereignty of God.

 

[Rockson]

I've noticed many times in discussions on Calvinism and predestination, there is great concern about protecting the dignity and freedom of man. But we must also observe the crucial importance of the sovereignty of God.

Actually the Calvinistic Westminster Confession makes claim to do this to. It's just window dressing though. They really don't believe it. They really believe God's will is being done and the will of man means nothing.

Westminster Confession Eternal Decrees : God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass, yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established,

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Actually the Calvinistic Westminster Confession makes claim to do this to. It's just window dressing though. They really don't believe it. They really believe God's will is being done and the will of man means nothing.

That's some impressive mind-reading. Can you tell me what Biden is thinking right now?

 

[Rockson]

That's some impressive mind-reading. Can you tell me what Biden is thinking right now?

As for me RT I'm not accepting that Calvinists are believing anything different then what I have said.

 

[TomL]

@Manasseh


No servant of Christ, probably, since the days of the apostles, and of the Gospel witnesses of their century, has been more grossly misrepresented, or more maliciously maligned, than the faithful, fearless, and beloved than John Calvin.

Through the books that John Calvin has written he still teaches us what predestination means. In its most elementary form, is that our final destination, heaven or hell, is decided by God not only before we get there, but before we are even born. He teaches that our ultimate destiny is in the hands of God.

Um he teaches that which never appears in the bible

Nowhere is predestination to heaven or hell of men unconditionally before the foundation of the earth ever seen in the pages of the bible

He got his ideas from Augustine who got his through the influence of Manichean Gnosticism

BTW Romans 8:29 is a promise concerning

Romans 8:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

those that love god and are called according to his purpose

 

[civic]

But the desires are determined by God. And man is seen as only doing what is his greatest desire

Yep in Calvinism god is responsible for everything that comes to pass since he determined and caused it to happen

 

[Biblelesson]

That's some impressive mind-reading. Can you tell me what Biden is thinking right now?

He's thinking...

"alzheimer's? What you talking about? I ain't got no stinking Alzheimer's. But when I flew a jet in Vietnam I had a copilot and he might have had Alzheimer's. We both had to bail out one time and I think he may have been eaten by pygmies. Luckily I got away. ... I wonder what that little girl's hair smells like?"

 

[Biblelesson]

But the desires are determined by God. And man is seen as only doing what is his greatest desire

Here are some biblical texts that teach that our nature determines our desire and our desires determine our choices. Christ says:

The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks." Luke 6:45

What Jesus says here is plain - that water does not rise above its source. Our decision to say something good or bad is solely determined by the condition of our heart. There is further evidence for this same concept in Matthew .

"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."
Matthew 7:18

Jesus is teaching that it is the nature of the tree that determines that which comes out of it. Only one who has a good nature is capable of creating a right thought, generating a right affection, or originating a right volition. Jesus again hammers the same concept into the unbelieving Jews when they discussed whether or not they were Abraham's descendants:

"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies... He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God." John 8:43-44 and 47

The Jews, in the above passage, could not hear the word of God because they were of the devil (their nature) and this gave rise to their wanting to do his desires. Their nature rendered them morally impotent to hear the words of Jesus. Furthermore Jesus teaches that before one can hear the words of God they must be of God. In other words, one will not understand the gospel as long as one remains in their fallen unregenerate state.

 

[synergy]

Determinism says that whatever deity exists is the cause of everything. Calvinism is a form of theistic determinism. Two specific teachings of Calvinism identify it as a deterministic system. First is the crucial tenet that God is the ultimate CAUSE of everything that happens. As an example of this teaching, see this statement by John Calvin: “Nothing can happen except God determines it” He says, “We acknowledge the will of God to be the ruling cause of all things,” the “one principle and all high cause of all things in heaven and earth!”

A modern day Calvinist Gordon H. Clark says, “God plans, decrees, and controls all events.”

Calvin again: “The world is so governed by God, that nothing is done therein but by his secret counsel and decree.” That “everything” is determined literally means everything, including every human decision and act—even sins. Calvin says, “Men can accomplish nothing except by God’s sacred command…. They cannot by deliberating accomplish anything except what he has already decreed with himself and determines by his secret direction” . He says, “Whatsoever men do, they do according to the eternal will and secret purpose of God”
From Eternal Predestination by John Calvin.

Also, “When men act perversely, they do so … by the ordaining purpose of God” From Secret Providence. By John Calvin

Also, “Satan performs his part by God’s impulsion” .

Finally, “Adam fell, not only by the permission of God, but by His very secret counsel and decree” “Secret Providence,”.

But how can this be consistent with the holiness of God, and with Bible texts such as 1 Timothy 2:4, which says that God our Savior “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”? And 2 Peter 3:9, which says that God is “not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance”? And 1 Thessalonians 4:3, “For this is the will of God, your sanctification”?

How can sin and unbelief be caused by the decree and will of God? In answer to this question we can say two things. First, according to Calvinists, God has TWO wills: His revealed, preceptive will, which shows us his stated desires and commands (as in the texts just cited), and his hidden, secret, purposive, decretive will, by which He determines all things that will actually happen.

These are two levels of God’s will. He may will one thing through His open revelation, and will just the opposite in his decretive will.5 Second, according to Calvinists, most events actually have TWO causes: the primary, ultimate cause, which is always God; and a secondary, proximate cause, e.g., human beings.

This is how Calvinists excuse God from the blame for sin. Every act of man “is the product of both causes.” I.e., “God also enables and prompts His rational creatures, as second causes, to function, and that not merely by endowing them with energy in a general way, but by energizing them to certain specific acts.” “Each deed is in its entirety both a deed of God and a deed of the creature.” The problem, though, is that this whole concept of “second causes” is a determinist fiction.

In the Calvinist system this universal divine causation is summed up in the basic Calvinist doctrine of the eternal decree. The Westminster Confession of Faith says, “God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass”.

The point is that even before He created anything, God formulated a detailed blueprint of everything that would ever happen within the creation. Every detail, down to the most minute event, was predetermined, pre-programed, and predestined by God. The characteristics of this decree are as follows.
One, it is eternal, i.e., formulated in eternity past, prior to the actual existence of any created thing.

Two, it is comprehensive, encompassing all things without exception.

Three, it is efficacious, i.e., it is the real cause of everything. “He has determined in Himself from all eternity everything which will be.”

And four, it is unconditional, i.e., completely uninfluenced and underived from anything outside of God. As an analogy, this eternal decree is God’s writing of a mammoth computer program; world history in every detail is just the running of the program.

I said above that two specific teachings of Calvinism identify it as a deterministic system. One is His absolute and all-inclusive causation of all things; the second crucial tenet of Calvinism as a determinism is this: There is no such thing as significant human free will. Some Calvinists simply deny free will.

Calvin himself says, “The internal affections of men are no less ruled by the hand of God than their external actions are preceded by His eternal decree; and moreover, … God performs not by the hands of men the things which He has decreed, without first working in their hearts the very will which precedes the acts they are to perform” from Secret Providence.

Gordon H. Clark says, “It is so obvious that the Bible contradicts the notion of free will that its acceptance by professing Christians can be explained only by the continuing ravages of sin blinding the minds of men”. In these modern times many Calvinists want to affirm free will, but they have to redefine it in such a way that the “freedom” is totally negated and the result is no longer significant free will.

What is this new definition? It is affirmed that man is a free moral agent, free to choose anything he so desires. Thus “free will” is then defined as the ability to choose according to one’s own inner nature, desires, and motives. As long as a person is able voluntarily to choose anything he wants to choose, his will is free. (This view of free will is called “compatibilism,” because it is said to be compatible with the deterministic view of God.)

From An article at The Christian Restoration Association / Calvinism and The Bible

Thank you for that explanation.

It's interesting what acrobatics Calvinists need to resort to in order to supposedly keep their doctrines logical like assigning 2 wills to God. What's to keep anyone from assigning another will to God like making everyone rich? This is just too mind warping.

 

[praise_yeshua]

@Manasseh

“Whom God did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son: moreover whom he did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them he also glorified”
Romans 8:29–30

No servant of Christ, probably, since the days of the apostles, and of the Gospel witnesses of their century, has been more grossly misrepresented, or more maliciously maligned, than the faithful, fearless, and beloved than John Calvin.

Calvin was a novice. An immature and egotistical narcissist that never said he was wrong about anything. Sure you might admire him but that speaks to immaturity and total depravity on your part.

Severtus didn't love Calvin. Neither did Luther nor Knox. No one really liked Calvin. Many used him for their own advancement. Calvinists are nothing more than self serving egomaniacs.

God the Father knew the elect in Christ. He predestined them to conformity to the image of Christ.

Those that are in Christ, have no personal identity. They all are conformed to the identity of Christ.

 

[Behold]

It's interesting what acrobatics Calvinists need to resort to in order to supposedly keep their doctrines logical like assigning 2 wills to God

Yes they all do it.

Also, Paul said to some of the Galatian Believers......>"WHO = has bewitched you, so that you no longer obey the Truth".

To obey the Truth, is to literally believe it.....that is how you "obey the Gospel" or "obey the Truth".... You BELIEVE IT.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 .. Paul explains that when Jesus comes back to exact and enforce = " vengeance "in Flaming FIRE".. He is doing this against all who "obey NOT the Gospel".

Who are they?

A.) All the unbelievers., who never obey it... (Believed it).

This is : John 3:36..

Also, when dealing with a deceived or "bewitched" Calvinist, you can see and hear just how spell-bound they are, when they try to explain the Theological insanity that is Calvin's Doctrine, as .....rational and logical.
Its really just a pitiful sight to behold...when you have these people trying to convince you that John 3:16,17 is a lie..= as the Cross is "Not for everyone".. or that you are born again FIRST...., so that after you are, you can THEN give God your faith in Christ.

So, the real believer, who is not deceived, and has been saved for 24 seconds, hears all that nonsense and thinks...."wow, none of that is even close to the truth, and none of it is even logical or rational".

But the BEWITCHED - Spellbound Calvinist, hears Calvin's Lies ......as if God is speaking to them.

Total mind blinded Devotion.

There are a number of 100% Hyper Calvinist forums online, and if you go there, and you dont kneel before their IDOL John Calvin, then they will ban you.
(you kneel by agreeing with Calvinism).

These people will have these artistic renderings of John Calvin.. and they use them as their Alts.... and if you ask them..

= "Are you a CHRISTian". ????????...they'll jump up and shout...."YES< im a CALVINIST".

But you didnt ask them that....

Its really sad, but its also to be noted that when you realize just how deceived these people are, then Hebrews 13:9 comes to Life, and Paul's description of what has happened to these people, becomes very clarified.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Thank you for that explanation.

It's interesting what acrobatics Calvinists need to resort to in order to supposedly keep their doctrines logical like assigning 2 wills to God. What's to keep anyone from assigning another will to God like making everyone rich? This is just too mind warping.

Isn't it interesting that those that are "total depravity" are claiming exemptions to "total depravity" for themselves?

I wonder how many times this has happened throughout the ages of mankind?

 

[TomL]

Here are some biblical texts that teach that our nature determines our desire and our desires determine our choices. Christ says:

The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks." Luke 6:45

The good man?

But tell us where does the bible state God gives man his evil desires

1 John 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

It doesn't