Free Will and Predestination

[Diserner]

Eternity is not the absence of time. It is an endless measure of time.

There's only one way you can already dwell in the past and future.

It's just a valid logical conclusion.

 

[praise_yeshua]

No, I don't.

God being outside of time does entail that all things are always present, that does not logically follow.

Your taking your limited thought (box) and saying my unlimited thought (no box) has to fit in it.

You're basically saying "If God isn't in MY box then he's in A box."

Another non sequitur.

1. Never said it did. I said that being outside of time doesn't not establish your claim nor prevent the real fact that you believe God knowledge is limited by what you classify as everything. You remove sequence and order as if it changes anything. It doesn't. You have a quantifiable "bucket" that the absence time does not establish as being infinite.

2. Is thought sequential? Do thoughts have causes and effects?

 

[praise_yeshua]

There's only one way you can already dwell in the past and future.

It's just a valid logical conclusion.

That is not Omniscience. It is Omnipresence.
Even so, I disagree. Since you are describing God in such a manner, you are still quantifying Him with a limited bucket you are referencing "all things". That which is past is past. If that is not true with God then you are still in your sin and so am I.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Foreknowledge is not to say predetermined. That God knows what we freely choose and allows it to happen is not to say that God decrees that we necessarily choose what is chosen. God still knows it, but God didn’t cause it.

Calvinism essentially says that God knows something because he decrees it, which logically means that God doesn’t know anything unless he decrees it. This is similar to the Open Theism belief that God doesn’t know anything unless he experiences or sees it. The formula “God doesn’t know until X” is the same in both camps.


Doug

Which is where predictability answers all the questions. If you say God knows everything because He has witnessed it take place then you have fully qualified God's experience. Thus limiting God. I suppose God just keeps watching that football game over and over....or remembering His own suffering on the cross. Thus suffering throughout all of His existence. There are so many problems with this view.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Which is where predictability answers all the questions. If you say God knows everything because He has witnessed it take place then you have fully qualified God's experience. Thus limiting God. I suppose God just keeps watching that football game over and over....or remembering His own suffering on the cross. Thus suffering throughout all of His existence. There are so many problems with this view.

I think hell is probably being forced to watch a soccer game over and over.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Okay, let's say you've convinced me that we choose to respond to the Gospel of our own free will, and God elects us according to his foreknowledge about how we will respond.

If that is how it works, then since God has complete foreknowledge, it can't turn out any other way. And you're back to the predestination of the elect. The only difference is that you've given yourself a modicum of credit for your own salvation. It's still predestined.

The only alternative then is open theism.

You stated, "The only alternative then is open theism."

Well, in my opnion there is a much better option ... the Molinist view of God's Divine Providence. William Lane Craig brilliantly stated : "It is up to God whether I find myself in a world which I am predestined; but it is up to me whether I am predestined in the world in which I find myself".

Here's the eye-opening video that the above quote was taken from :

"On Behalf of a Molinist Perspective | Gracepoint Church - San Francisco"

 

[Behold]

God elects us according to his foreknowledge

What you posted is John Calvinism nonsense.

Let me show you what this nut bar did with ONE verse that caused him to have to deny the Cross to write the rest of his mostly Satanic garbage theology.

He wrote... "the elect are pre-destined to be chosen to believe, before they are born"

See that? He made that up..

He took this verse, and re-wrote it .... "Conformed into the Image of Christ".

See that 'Conformed" "into the Image of Christ".. ??

That is the born again believer's final conforming, when they get the new body, and are in Heaven.

John Calvinism took that verse and re-wrote it as..>"God pre-destines some to be elected"

 

[praise_yeshua]

You stated, "The only alternative then is open theism."

Well, in my opnion there is a much better option ... the Molinist view of God's Divine Providence. William Lane Craig brilliantly stated : "It is up to God whether I find myself in a world which I am predestined; but it is up to me whether I am predestined in the world in which I find myself".

Here's the eye-opening video that the above quote was taken from :

"On Behalf of a Molinist Perspective | Gracepoint Church - San Francisco"

Molinism is overly simplistic. Knowing what would have happened given a single "scenario" (Sodom Matthew 11) doesn't adequately address the why/what of God's chooses nor does it adequately deal with God's power to perform His purpose. There is a hierarchy that exists in all of existence. God's power is clearly shown in many things yet it not so evident in others. Patience, longsuffering and mercy are proof of a targeted purpose more intricate than just 1+1+1 = 3

To me, Molinism fits well within Universalism. Though there are Calvinists that are seeming to embrace Molinism.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Molinism is overly simplistic. Knowing what would have happened given a single "scenario" (Sodom Matthew 11) doesn't adequately address the why/what of God's chooses nor does it adequately deal with God's power to perform His purpose. There is a hierarchy that exists in all of existence. God's power is clearly shown in many things yet it not so evident in others. Patience, longsuffering and mercy are proof of a targeted purpose more intricate than just 1+1+1 = 3

To me, Molinism fits well within Universalism. Though there are Calvinists that are seeming to embrace Molinism.

Virtually every Molinist rejects Universalism ... including myself [in fact, every consistent Molinist does reject it's claims]. That is to say, it's simply inconsistent to mesh the foundational truth claims of Universalism with a consistent form of Molinism.

 

[atpollard]

deleted.

 

[civic]

How can you be sure the "nutjob" did not rewrite:

• [Romans 8:29-30 NASB] For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers [and sisters;] and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

and just assume that a person "foreknown, predestined, called, justified, and glorified" was probably "elected to believe"?

Or those who believe are those who were foreknown, called, predestined, justified and glorified

 

[Behold]

How can you be sure the "nutjob" did not rewrite:

• [Romans 8:29-30 NASB] For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son,

I just posted to you that exact verse.

Is your brain turned on?

Paul's verse says that God predestined the born again, to be conformed into the image of his Son..

Your MASTER, John Calvinism, as i told you in the post, changed that verse into his HELLISH "predestined to be elected" = Chooses some to be saved.

Paul's verse is talking about those who are already born again, and they have a final "conforming into the image of Jesus".


Amazing that a Hyper Calvinist, is so mind blinded that they post the exact verse that proves Calvin, changed Paul's Doctrine, as well as denied God's Grace, by rewriting the verse, as his Satanic 'predestined elect".

 

[praise_yeshua]

Virtually every Molinist rejects Universalism ... including myself [in fact, every consistent Molinist does reject it's claims]. That is to say, it's simply inconsistent to mesh the foundational truth claims of Universalism with a consistent form of Molinism.

Virtually? That allows for some. There is a reason I said what I said. It makes logical sense that it would be true. Universalism also seeks to explain the freedom of men.

To me, the appeal of Open Theism and Molinism are very similar. I agree with some of the details of each position but they do no adequately deal with God's purpose and power relative to His Character.

May I ask why didn't God intervene in Sodom personally? Jesus was standing there right in front of those He condemned in Matthew 11.

 

[Behold]

May I ask why didn't God intervene in Sodom personally?

Its because there is a searing of the conscience that is beyond the reach of God's Grace.

So, in Genesis.....God's righteousness.... was not just burning sex perverts, and drowning them in Noah's flood..>He was ending what can't be remedied.

= He was "stopping the spread of the issue".

See, you dont play with Cancer, you cut it out.

Let me show you something about "Gay" perversion, that God understands in Romans 1....., but those who are politically corrected, will never.

A.) Gays do not reproduce......they Recruit.

God ended that in Sodom and Gomorrah, as He had previously ended it right outside of Noah's Ark.

And Christ is coming again soon and is going to end it once and for all, and no Supreme court or "sex pervert Rights"...or demonic Media bias, or Gay Church of England Priest in the Pulpit..... is going to be able to stop Him.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Its because there is a searing of the conscience that is beyond the reach of God's Grace.

So, in Genesis.....God's righteousness.... was not just burning sex perverts, and drowning them in Noah's flood..>He was ending what can't be remedied.

= He was "stopping the spread of the issue".

See, you dont play with Cancer, you cut it out.

Let me show you something about "Gay" perversion, that God understands in Romans 1....., but those who are politically corrected, will never.

A.) Gays do not reproduce......they Recruit.

God ended that in Sodom and Gomorrah, as He had previously ended it right outside of Noah's Ark.

And Christ is coming again soon and is going to end it once and for all, and no Supreme court or "sex pervert Rights"...or demonic Media bias, or Gay Church of England Priest in the Pulpit..... is going to be able to stop Him.

In Matthew 11, Jesus told the group that Sodom would have repented if the same words of God were done in front of them.

Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Virtually? That allows for some. There is a reason I said what I said. It makes logical sense that it would be true. Universalism also seeks to explain the freedom of men.

To me, the appeal of Open Theism and Molinism are very similar. I agree with some of the details of each position but they do no adequately deal with God's purpose and power relative to His Character.

May I ask why didn't God intervene in Sodom personally? Jesus was standing there right in front of those He condemned in Matthew 11.

"Virtually? That allows for some. "

Yes it does - it allows for those "Molinists" who are not consistent with the doctrinal system which they say they embrace ... this happens all the time in every area of soteriology.

"May I ask why didn't God intervene in Sodom personally? Jesus was standing there right in front of those He condemned in Matthew 11."

Well, it's certainly above my "pay grade" to justify all of God's actions [or "non-actions] ... therefore, I choose to believe that God always makes the best decision in every circumstance. If I'm not mistaken, your question seems to be directly linked to the issue of "the hiddenness of God" - an argument the atheists commonly appeal to in their debates against the theists [ please don't misunderstand me, I'm certainly not saying that you side with the atheists for asking this question].

 

[praise_yeshua]

"Virtually? That allows for some. "

Yes it does - it allows for those "Molinists" who are not consistent with the doctrinal system which they say they embrace ... this happens all the time in every area of soteriology.

Agreed. Which is why I avoid majority arguments. Many times, I'm in the minority.

"May I ask why didn't God intervene in Sodom personally? Jesus was standing there right in front of those He condemned in Matthew 11."

Well, it's certainly above my "pay grade" to justify all of God's actions [or "non-actions] ... therefore, I choose to believe that God always makes the best decision in every circumstance. If I'm not mistaken, your question seems to be directly linked to the issue of "the hiddenness of God" - an argument the atheists commonly appeal to in their debates against the theists [ please don't misunderstand me, I'm certainly not saying that you side with the atheists for asking this question].

I believe Molinism should consider the difference in God's choices in "their" system. God takes action at times and at times He doesn't. Which indicates perfect purpose. I'm not questioning God. I just believe Molinism doesn't adequately address this.

The simple answer is, it wasn't "time". As such, some are more privileged and some are more oppressed than others. Freedom is always limited by inability. Which is why there is are many shared truths in this discussion.

One of the most difficult aspects of dealing with this issue is the teaching of the "remnant" or "reservation" that God has purposed in humanity. The "remnant" is God's "reservation" in humanity.

God not only works directly, He expects US to work in humanity. Which goes to culpability. To me, this is a failing in every system that I've known that attempts to present a valid explanation for the topic at hand.

We are our brother's keeper. As much as Calvinism attempts to distance itself from this truth in Salvation, they can never escape it.

 

[civic]

In Matthew 11, Jesus told the group that Sodom would have repented if the same words of God were done in front of them.

Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

That tells me there could of been a different outcome and shows God doesn't predetermine every single thing and control every outcome as taught by many. Just like Sovereign doesn't mean the king controls every action by those in his kingdom. He makes the rules and its up to those in the kingdom if they want to follow them or not. Sovereignty has been twisted by many to fit divine determinism and predestination which has also been taken over by them and given it an unbiblical meaning.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Once at Carm, I posted this verse in the Calvinism/Arminian forum and it was quickly deleted without explanation and I was given a "time out" for a few days.

Mat 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.

Notice the causal event at the end of the verse.....

There is a reason that unbelief is often generational. There is a reason that faith is often generational. It has nothing to do with predestination nor individual election.

It has to do with US. We have dominion in this life to not only affect/control what is around us but what happens in the world to come.....

 

[civic]

Once at Carm, I posted this verse in the Calvinism/Arminian forum and it was quickly deleted without explanation and I was given a "time out" for a few days.

Mat 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.

Notice the causal event at the end of the verse.....

There is a reason that unbelief is often generational. There is a reason that faith is often generational. It has nothing to do with predestination nor individual election.

It has to do with US. We have dominion in this life to not only affect/control what is around us but what happens in the world to come.....

be careful you don't attack the sacred cow lol.