Early Church Creed rejects the main tenant of Calvinism
- Thread starter civic
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Um we are discussing what Calvinism and particular Baptists teach not the bibleI give you the WORD OF GOD …
… and you give me John Calvin in response.
So do you disagree with?
GOD from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass
Westminster Assembly, The Westminster Confession of Faith: Edinburgh Edition (Philadelphia: William S. Young, 1851), 26.
John Calvin wrote that “ [God] arranges all things by his sovereign council, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.”1 God predestined some to eternal life and others to eternal judgment because He did not want all saved.
????
Did you not agree with the claim those verses say Nothing at all about an unconditional determined decree to make man a vessel of wrath
How is you now appear support that belief ?
Btw that verse does not state god unconditionally determines men to be vessels of wrath
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civic
Well-known member
1-nations and Israel
2- believers already in Christ through faith
3- contrasting the righteous and wicked.
next fallacy
atpollard
Well-known member
I denied “positive-positive schema Double Predestination” … God does not PREDESTINE anyone to damnation according to scripture, God PREDESTINES to salvation. That is why the WCF and BFM use different words for the saved and the lost in their description of God’s control of ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER THAT COME TO PASS.
I have always affirmed the Biblical teaching, which I pointed out to you, that God “works all things according to the council of His will.”
atpollard
Well-known member
Posting scripture and reading what God said to seek TRUTH is NEVER a fallacy.
Placing your faith in the Council of Orange over the Word of God … that is worse than fallacy, that is FOLLY.
How then can you then state God determines all things if he did not determine to hell those who wind up in hell.
That's inconsistent
atpollard
Well-known member
Particular Baptists reject the Westminster Confession of Faith … it is a Presbyterian and Paedobaptist Confession that happens to agree with the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith (aka the London Confession) on the soteriology now called “TULIP”, but disagrees on other important matters.
Do you agree with scripture:
“There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.” - 1 Corinthians 12:6
“also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,” - Ephesians 1:11
“God works all things in all persons after the council of His will.”
I believe context which shows
1 Corinthians 12:4–11 (NASB 2020) — 4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
the passage is speaking of God giving spiritual gifts and says nothing at all about an unconditional determination to make some to be vessels of wrath
atpollard
Well-known member
How then does SCRIPTURE affirm that truth?
We really should be discussing Scripture to find the answers rather than the writings of the Council of Orange or John Calvin or the Westminster Confession or even my beloved Baptist Faith and Message.
The answer is in the Bible.
(I started to point you towards verses with the answers, but everyone just wants to shout “taint so” and talk about DOUBLE PREDESTINATION as it is NOT taught by … well, anyone but radical Hypercalvinists that teach evangelism is evil.
civic
Well-known member
I gave you the position everyone but Calvinists hold in those passages.
civic
Well-known member
placing your faith in the doctrines of grace ,the WCF or LBC or the reformation is worse, its folly.
atpollard
Well-known member
Since God’s right to create vessels of wrath is the only thing your blinders will allow you to see or discuss (which is NOT “predestination”, but you are unwilling to discuss THAT), does ROMANS 9 have anything to say about GOD’s right to create vessels of wrath?
atpollard
Well-known member
Except for all the Calvinist sources that deny the DOUBLE PREDESTINATION you claim they believe.
I believe the technical term for your fallacy is “strawman”.
You have proven what we do not believe is false.
civic
Well-known member
more calvinist theologians affirm it and the others its nothing but double talk. election in reformed theology has a set number to be saved and the rest by default are damned and are not free to hear or believer the gospel since God doesn't not regenerate them like He does the elect.
the non elect are damned from all eternity by default. no ifs ands or buts about it that's calvinism 101. if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, flies like a duck, waddles like a duck its a duck.
atpollard
Well-known member
“No one can come to Me [TOTAL INABILITY] unless the Father who sent Me [UNCONDITIONAL] draws him [IRRESISTIBLE]; and I will raise him up on the last day [PRESERVATION].” - John 6:44
My faith is in CHRIST, who redeemed me, and my theology comes from HIS HOLY WORD, the only infallible written source I have.
civic
Well-known member
yep that in Calvinism is only the elect group- the non elect group is damned by default by your gods doing. That's double no matter how much you or RC denies it. That's the excuse calvinists make who cannot swallow their own doctrine and try to make excuses for their god. it's called compatibilism.
Um all who hear and learn can come
John 6:45 (NASB 2020) — 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
No total inability
atpollard
Well-known member
That is not PREDESTINED to damnation as the word “predestined” is used in scripture. We make a distinction because the WORD OF GOD makes a distinction. You wish to shove words down our throat and claim there is no difference between the saved and the lost in Romans 8:29-30 … that what God does FOR the saved, He does the opposite TO the lost. Scripture does not teach that, so we Reformed do not claim that. Your LIES about our beliefs, however logical, are patently false slanders of our beliefs and the teachings of scripture.
It is no accident that Sproul and the WCF and the BFM refuse to draw a parallel between the saved and the lost. God draws no such equivalence, so neither do we.
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