Doug, this in now way addresses my post. If it were my child none of this would matter. Use your free will and tell me you love me or burn. No parent would ever do that. And this is the reason I am a Calvinist.
Whats the purpose of Gods Judgment ?
- Thread starter civic
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TibiasDad
Well-known member
Your argument assumes that a child equals a young, incapable person that is not mature enough to respond volitionally. That is not the condition of a culpable person.
A culpable person has the capacity to understand the evidence against him and respond willfully to it with respect to God’s offering of forgiveness.
God is seeking seekers! “Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened, ask and you will receive!”
The entirety of the gospel is “believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, born again, redeemed.” Not once is there stated a prerequisite that God must give you faith or that God must regenerate your heart before you can believe.
Doug
I never assumed any such thing. Age irrelevant. They could be 40 and not want to be saved. I would still attempt to save them despite themselves. And would if I could. Would just stand there and watch them burn? You and I both know you wouldn't.
civic
Well-known member
Amen
atpollard
Well-known member
... hypothetically, what happens if, say, all men have a free will that is tainted by a fallen nature and 100% choose to reject God's offer of love?
[as in ... John 1:4-5, John 1:10-11, John 3:18-20, Romans 3:10-12, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 2:1-4 ... to list just a few]
civic
Well-known member
the facts say otherwise since millions and millions of people have been saved since Pentecost. Millions have believed and received the gospel by faith in the Son of God confessing Him as their Lord.
And there are more who willingly reject Gods gospel which is a based upon God loving all sinners, all the world alike. `
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Your language belies your soteriology: In your theology God doesn’t “attempt to save” he either saves or doesn’t save, or more accurately, he either elects you to salvation or he doesn’t.
It doesn’t have anything to do with whether someone “wants to be saved”, for the decision is totally in God’s hands and desire. Man is irrelevant! So in fact, God does just let some burn purposefully!
Doug
atpollard
Well-known member
[begin quote of what was actually asked]
"... hypothetically, what happens if, say, all men have a free will that is tainted by a fallen nature and 100% choose to reject God's offer of love?
[as in ... John 1:4-5, John 1:10-11, John 3:18-20, Romans 3:10-12, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 2:1-4 ... to list just a few] "
[end quote of what was actually asked]
[begin response to what was actually asked]
[begin redirect of response back to the actual question that was originally asked]
Conversations work better if we answer the questions that are asked ... especially HYPOTHETICAL questions.
Claiming a HYPOTHETICAL is HYPOTHETICAL and not "reality" is a "DUH" moment.
So "WHAT IF?"
[end redirect and open the floor to the remote possibility of "conversation"]
"... hypothetically, what happens if, say, all men have a free will that is tainted by a fallen nature and 100% choose to reject God's offer of love?
[as in ... John 1:4-5, John 1:10-11, John 3:18-20, Romans 3:10-12, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 2:1-4 ... to list just a few] "
[end quote of what was actually asked]
[begin response to what was actually asked]
[end response to what was actually asked]
[begin redirect of response back to the actual question that was originally asked]
Conversations work better if we answer the questions that are asked ... especially HYPOTHETICAL questions.
Claiming a HYPOTHETICAL is HYPOTHETICAL and not "reality" is a "DUH" moment.
So "WHAT IF?"
[end redirect and open the floor to the remote possibility of "conversation"]
atpollard
Well-known member
Technically, @Presby02 said "I would still attempt to save them despite themselves. And would if I could." to which you replied "God doesn’t 'attempt to save' he either saves or doesn’t save". Both what Presby02 said of HIMSELF and what you said of GOD (representing monergistic soteriology) are accurate statements. It is not reasonable to conflate Presby02 with God ... they are not even close to EQUALS. So Presby02 in his ignorance of eternity can attempt to save all, confident that GOD will "show mercy on whom He will show mercy". God, in contrast, "knows the end from the beginning" and has/is/will foreknow, predestine, call, justify and glorify "whomsoever" as He wills.
atpollard
Well-known member
Implied in Ephesians 2:8-9 and explicit in my signature.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
atpollard
Well-known member
There are people that deny the Earth is round, too.
My point is they claim God loves and desires the whole world. We are all children of God we are told. So why does God simply not save them? Would one tell their child standing in a burning house I will save you just tell me you love me? Would you place conditions on saving your child, whom you love, from hellfire? My questions are from their perspective, not ours.
Exactly right. My God saves who intends to save without fail. "He WILL save His people from their sins."
Exactly. No one wants to be saved. No one wants to obey God. No one seeks God. It's only by the grace of God one does so
You still did not answer my question. Would your saving your child from burning forever be conditional when you are perfectly capable of saving them? Better yet. Would you create children knowing their eternal destination is he'll fire?
atpollard
Well-known member
I have decided that the level of irrational hatred of Calvinism makes conversation on any topic impossible because all they want to do is tell me how much they HATE what I see the word of God commanding me to believe. That serves no one. I tried talking about things other than TULIP but EVERYTHING gets dragged back to "Augustine" nonsense (as IF I ever read anything by Augustine) or TOTAL DEPRAVITY or anything but what was being discussed (like "were people transformed/given a new heart/saved prior to Pentecost") ... which has ZERO to do with TULIP except for all the responses directed against me.
Time to shake off the dust. There is nothing healthy for me here, just irrational hatred.
Luke 6:43-45 [NKJV]
"For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks."
See you somewhere else.
civic
Well-known member
Because real love is a two way street/ relationship, not a one way. Love is a choice and God gives man a choice to receive and believe the gospel and become a child of God and be saved or to reject His provision that was made through the atonement of Christ for all sin. Your view has God showing favoritism over some and rejecting others via election , predestination , determinism etc …
hope this helps !!!
I hope so. Take care brother
Sorry but saving my child who I proclaim to love would not be a choice nor conditional. Apparently you would have to think about it.
civic
Well-known member
Yet the god of Calvinism condemns most all who are created in his image .
civic
Well-known member
Sorry to see you go as I have enjoyed our discussions outside of tulip.
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