Free Will and Predestination

[The Rogue Tomato]

That tells me there could of been a different outcome and shows God doesn't predetermine every single thing and control every outcome as taught by many. Just like Sovereign doesn't mean the king controls every action by those in his kingdom. He makes the rules and its up to those in the kingdom if they want to follow them or not. Sovereignty has been twisted by many to fit divine determinism and predestination which has also been taken over by them and given it an unbiblical meaning.

Since there could have been a different outcome, how do you explain this? A loving God would never allow there to be that outcome.

 

[civic]

Since there could have been a different outcome, how do you explain this? A loving God would never allow there to be that outcome.

sin and the fall- freedom of the will, freedom to choose to love God in return instead of sin and self. Love requires freedom.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Agreed. Which is why I avoid majority arguments. Many times, I'm in the minority.



I believe Molinism should consider the difference in God's choices in "their" system. God takes action at times and at times He doesn't. Which indicates perfect purpose. I'm not questioning God. I just believe Molinism doesn't adequately address this.

The simple answer is, it wasn't "time". As such, some are more privileged and some are more oppressed than others. Freedom is always limited by inability. Which is why there is are many shared truths in this discussion.

One of the most difficult aspects of dealing with this issue is the teaching of the "remnant" or "reservation" that God has purposed in humanity. The "remnant" is God's "reservation" in humanity.

God not only works directly, He expects US to work in humanity. Which goes to culpability. To me, this is a failing in every system that I've known that attempts to present a valid explanation for the topic at hand.

We are our brother's keeper. As much as Calvinism attempts to distance itself from this truth in Salvation, they can never escape it.

"As much as Calvinism attempts to distance itself from this truth in Salvation, they can never escape it."

Yes indeed, Molinism is centered around the principle doctrines of Arminianism. This is why I emphasized the term "consistent Molinism"... a consistent 5- point Calvinist cannot adhere to Molina's perspective of Divine Providence while at the same time holding consistently to their brand of Calvinism.

 

[civic]

Since there could have been a different outcome, how do you explain this? A loving God would never allow there to be that outcome.

Theology begins and ends with the character and nature of God. Theology is the study of God. There are so many misnomers running around about God. If anyone wants to know what God is like and what He thinks we need to look no further than Jesus and His teachings since He is the Eternal God who became man.

What does love look like according to Jesus and the Apostles teaching.

1- Jesus taught us to love our enemies and pray for them
2- Jesus lived among sinners, ate with them and loved them, had compassion on them.
3- Jesus loves sinners, not hates them
4- Jesus on the cross said please forgive them Father for they know not what they do- His enemies who hated Him at the time.
5- Jesus came to seek and save the lost, the sinner
6- Jesus showed us what love looks like, acts like, talks like, lives like and how it treats people.
7- Jesus told us all the law and commandments are wrapped up/fulfilled in loving God with all our being( heart, mind, soul, strength ) and your neighbor as you do yourself.
8- Jesus said if you really love Him you will do what He has commanded
9- Love is described perfectly in 1 Corinthians 13- If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.8 Love never fails.
10- Love in action in Galatians 5- But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

I could list another 10 points to this list but this should be plenty to get the point across. The wrath, anger, hatred about God towards us is misunderstood by many. Gods wrath always falls upon the reprobate, apostate, those hardened against God, those who are wicked and rebellious that reject Gods provision for their sins by Jesus sacrifice.

conclusion: because God is Love and Jesus is God we can see to perfection that 1 Cor 13 and the fruit of the spirit in Gal 5:22-23 describes Jesus to a tee . His is love incarnate since God is love we see Him in action described in the gospels and where the Bible defines love.

hope this helps !!!

 

[makesends]

I mentioned this to some degree the other day. I don't see much of a difference in election from this standpoint between Calvinism and Arminianism.

There are more choices than Open Theism. I generally prefer the predictability model that I've created...

The way Calvinism and Arminianism treat time limits God. I used to drive Ransom crazy asking him if the knowledge God possesses consists of a singular thought based upon causation.

God is not like us. Our constructions of such things don't hold value; they depend on validity of our POV and our anthropomorphisms.

 

[praise_yeshua]

God is not like us. Our constructions of such things don't hold value; they depend on validity of our POV and our anthropomorphisms.

God is exactly like us. However, we are like God. We are HIS offspring.

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

 

[makesends]

God is exactly like us. However, we are like God. We are HIS offspring.

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Whoa! "God is exactly like us"???? I wonder how many others on this site will agree with you there.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Whoa! "God is exactly like us"???? I wonder how many others on this site will agree with you there.

I sure hope God is not exactly like me. Heck, I hope he's not even similar to me. I'm not motivated to pray to an old, worn out hermit.

 

[Rockson]

I sure hope God is not exactly like me. Heck, I hope he's not even similar to me. I'm not motivated to pray to an old, worn out hermit.

LOL The world envisions God or at least God the Father in comic strips as a heavy set old guy with a long white beard. He however is young (meaning nothing of old age ) and he is eternal with nothing decrepit within him.

Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. 1 Tim 6: 16

 

[praise_yeshua]

Whoa! "God is exactly like us"???? I wonder how many others on this site will agree with you there.

Sorry. I meant to say "God is NOT exactly like us. However, we are like God". You can tell by the fact I used "However" in what I wrote. My mistake. Like I've said before, I'm always in a hurry. Theology is what has kept me "sane" all these years.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I sure hope God is not exactly like me. Heck, I hope he's not even similar to me. I'm not motivated to pray to an old, worn out hermit.

So Jesus wasn't tempted in all points like we are? Just making the point. Studying the Hypostatic Union would help many people to properly understand God's relationship to mankind.

Age is just another sign of weakness. Jesus certainly experienced the loneliness associated with being targeted for endless hatred from those he loved.

Consider.....

Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Not saying Christ wasn't so much MORE.

 

[TedT]

Does the fact that this theology insists:
we chose our own FATE to be saved or condemned by our free will but GOD gives HIS elect who then chose to sin predetermined LIVES on earth to ensure that their redemption happens the best and fastest way possible....bring it into or does it bypass the definition of open theism?

...the question from post #3 which has not been answered, yet.

 

[makesends]

...the question from post #3 which has not been answered, yet.

Badly asked question, presupposing things not in existence.

Not 'fate', cold and impersonal chance, but predestination —intended and directed. Not choosing what effectually predestines, but choosing according to predestination.

Free will? What does that mean —uncaused choice?

 

[TedT]

Free will? What does that mean —uncaused choice?

An unforced choice arising from only the individual's desires, not from anyone else. The result of this choice is caused, brought to fruition, only by the individual's hope of that which will bring him the most happiness.

 

[makesends]

An unforced choice arising from only the individual's desires, not from anyone else. The result of this choice is caused, brought to fruition, only by the individual's hope of that which will bring him the most happiness.

Then you can't see past that statement to the fact that one's individual desires are the result of causes that came before that desire, and even from before himself, he also being a result of causes. You pretend that he is himself a first cause.

 

[civic]

Then you can't see past that statement to the fact that one's individual desires are the result of causes that came before that desire, and even from before himself, he also being a result of causes. You pretend that he is himself a first cause.

Where does the bible say every choice is caused ?

 

[makesends]

Where does the bible say every choice is caused ?

In the beginning, God created
-----------
All things were made by him
-----------
In him all things were created
-----------
The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands. Nor is He served by human hands, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.
-----------
In him we live and move and have our being
-----------
ERGO......

 

[civic]

In the beginning, God created
-----------
All things were made by him
-----------
In him all things were created
-----------
The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands. Nor is He served by human hands, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.
-----------
In him we live and move and have our being
-----------
ERGO......

Great verses and I agree with them just not in a deterministic way as if nothing can change since creation was set in motion. I can freely choose one day to do a specific sin and the very next day choose not to do the same exact sin. I do that freely not because God determined I sin or not sin.

 

[makesends]

Great verses and I agree with them just not in a deterministic way as if nothing can change since creation was set in motion. I can freely choose one day to do a specific sin and the very next day choose not to do the same exact sin. I do that freely not because God determined I sin or not sin.

Yet, while you and I both see the working of your will in deciding to sin or not to sin, we can't see God determining it directly; yet logic demands that he has, at least, determined it 'distantly', and, I say, logic also shows that he did so intentionally.

Meanwhile I find nothing in Scripture to counter that idea, but instead, to support and demonstrate it.

 

[TedT]

Then you can't see past that statement to the fact that one's individual desires are the result of causes that came before that desire,

I recognize the commitment to the idea that there was a cause before their desires that forced their choices is too sophisticated to be meaningful and I reject it as theo-babble against the absolute necessity of our pure and true free will...no force applied by our GOD to our choices and before any entanglements with sin.