Predestination and Determinism

Johann said:
Is calling Calvinists paganistic-not knowing God and promoting false, heretical teachings an apologia of what you believe is correct and they have it wrong?
Reminds me of this-no offense.

Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
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What is your assessment of me? How have you treated me and how have I acted in return? I rightfully recognize when you're right and rightfully recognize when you are wrong.

It is interesting to me that you chose this analogy. Calvinism perfectly represents this parable. There is no humility to found in claiming that God has chosen YOU while damning those just like you.

If you find humility in such, please detail it. I'd like to recognize it.
 
civic said:
Double predestination ( Calvinism ) makes God dishonest.
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There's a lot of things Christians do that makes God and the Holy Spirit and Jesus dishonest-not just Calvinists.
 
synergy said:
Where's the 3rd choice? You still can't find it? Keep searching.... 🔎
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There are a number of other options. I won't say which one (or combination) I think is correct, but here are some:

1. God opens the eyes, ears, and heart, and believing is the inevitable response since the truth is now obvious
2. God changes the inclination of a person such that he is willing to believe
3. God enables a person to have faith in Him
4. God reveals Himself to the person in a special way

No zapping involved, and it doesn't require people to have been created with human capacity to believe.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
There are a number of other options. I won't say which one (or combination) I think is correct, but here are some:

1. God opens the eyes, ears, and heart, and believing is the inevitable response since the truth is now obvious
2. God changes the inclination of a person such that he is willing to believe
3. God enables a person to have faith in Him
4. God reveals Himself to the person in a special way

No zapping involved, and it doesn't require people to have been created with human capacity to believe.
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You're describing "zapping".

"zapping" doesn't involve learning. It is a "zap/gifted" with knowledge event.
 
Johann said:
The Bible teaches that our capacity for faith and belief is part of our human nature, as we are created in the image of God. Passages like Psalm 139:13-14 affirm that God knit us together and fearfully and wonderfully made us, including our innate spiritual faculties:
"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well."
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I totally agree.
Johann said:
At the same time, the Bible also acknowledges that God can sovereignly harden or blind the hearts of those who persistently reject Him, as seen in the passage from John 12:40 cited earlier:

"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them."

This suggests that while we are created with the capacity for faith, God may sometimes judicially harden the hearts of those who stubbornly refuse to believe. However, this is not an arbitrary or discriminatory act, but a consequence of their own choices and rejection of God's revelation.
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I totally agree. "Those who stubbornly refuse to believe" and thus human freedom of choice is preserved. That goes against Calvinist doctrine that promotes unconditional election.
Johann said:
The overall biblical teaching seems to be that faith is a gift of God's grace, rooted in our human nature as His image-bearers, but that God also reserves the right to withhold that gift from those who persistently harden their hearts against Him. The balance between human responsibility and divine sovereignty in the process of belief is a profound mystery.
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Faith is rooted in our human nature, as you say. It is not zapped from above.
Johann said:
hath
*Mt 13:13-15 [13] Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they don’t see, and hearing, they don’t hear, neither do they understand. [14] In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says, ‘By hearing you will hear, and will in no way understand; Seeing you will see, and will in no way perceive; [15] for this people’s heart has grown callous, their ears are dull of hearing, and they have closed their eyes; or else perhaps they might perceive with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and would turn again, and I would heal them.’

*Mk 4:12 that ‘seeing they may see and not perceive, and hearing they may hear and not understand, lest perhaps they should turn again, and their sins should be forgiven them.’”

*Lk 8:10 He said, “To you it is given to know the mysteries of God’s Kingdom, but to the rest it is given in parables, that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’

Jn 9:39 Jesus said, “I came into this world for judgment, that those who don’t see may see; and that those who see may become blind.”

1Ki 22:20 Yahweh said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ One said one thing, and another said another.

Is 29:10 For Yahweh has poured out on you a spirit of deep sleep, and has closed your eyes, the prophets; and he has covered your heads, the seers.

Eze 14:9 “‘“If the prophet is deceived and speaks a word, I, Yahweh, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand on him, and will destroy him from among my people Israel.

Mt 15:14 Leave them alone. They are blind guides of the blind. If the blind guide the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

Ac 28:26 saying, ‘Go to this people and say, in hearing, you will hear, but will in no way understand. In seeing, you will see, but will in no way perceive.

Ro 11:8-11 [8] According as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, to this very day.” [9] David says, “Let their table be made a snare, a trap, a stumbling block, and a retribution to them. [10] Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see. Always keep their backs bent.” [11] I ask then, did they stumble that they might fall? May it never be! But by their fall salvation has come to the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.

hardened
Ex 4:21 Yahweh said to Moses, “When you go back into Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your hand, but I will harden his heart and he will not let the people go.

Ex 7:3 I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Ex 7:13 Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he didn’t listen to them, as Yahweh had spoken.

Ex 14:4 I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will follow after them; and I will get honor over Pharaoh, and over all his armies; and the Egyptians shall know that I am Yahweh.” They did so.

Ex 14:8 Yahweh hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued the children of Israel; for the children of Israel went out with a high hand.

Ex 14:17 Behold, I myself will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they will go in after them. I will get myself honor over Pharaoh, and over all his armies, over his chariots, and over his horsemen.

Jos 11:20 For it was of Yahweh to harden their hearts, to come against Israel in battle, that he might utterly destroy them, that they might have no favor, but that he might destroy them, as Yahweh commanded Moses.

Ro 9:18 So then, he has mercy on whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires.

Ro 11:7 What then? That which Israel seeks for, that he didn’t obtain, but the chosen ones obtained it, and the rest were hardened.

Guess you would disagree-right?
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Why would I not agree with the Bible verses? They all fly in the face of Calvinism.
 
Johann said:
There's a lot of things Christians do that makes God and the Holy Spirit and Jesus dishonest-not just Calvinists.
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Who is avoiding that fact? No one. Which is why I challenge you and everyone I discuss the Scriptures with.

It is interesting that "Rogue" is patting you on the back solely based upon your agreement with him in a few things. Wait till you rightfully recognize his mistakes. Are you afraid to do that?
 
praise_yeshua said:
It certainly is. You're claiming that God "gifts" knowledge apart from learning. That is "zapping".
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I repeat, it is not zapping a person with belief, as synergy suggested. If @synergy wants to correct his wording such that it encompasses the alternatives I listed, that's fine, but nothing I listed is zapping a person with belief.
 
synergy said:
I totally agree.

I totally agree. "Those who stubbornly refuse to believe" and thus human freedom of choice is preserved. That goes against Calvinist doctrine that promotes unconditional election.

Faith is rooted in our human nature, as you say. It is not zapped from above.

Why would I not agree with the Bible verses? They all fly in the face of Calvinism.
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Just want to make sure we are on the same path.
 
synergy said:
Zapping is unidirectional monergism in like matter to a bolt of energy originating from one point and ending in another. All your points are by definition unidirectional monergism or zapping in colloquial terms.
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You can call it zapping, but it's not zapping a person with belief. If you're just talking about monergism, then say so. "Zapping a person with belief" is not only nonsense, it is deliberately condescending and arrogant nonsense.
 
"I believe monergism is wrong" is an intellectually honest statement, and it promotes discussion.

"You believe God zaps people with belief" is antagonistic and intellectually dishonest.
 

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