My full defense of PSA

Eternally-Grateful said:
The penalty of death was not physical death.

Physical death is a consequence of sin.

So you would still be dead in your sin.

you can not have justification unless the penalty is taken. By either the use peyaing his own debt, or again, an inno0cent person taking it

Never said there was.

He did it out of love for you and me..



Ie. Penal substitution.

he took the penalty you own. and paid that debt in your place.. which led to God biong able to give you the gift of life, based on justification (a legal term)

ie. penal substitution

You seem to be for it. then you are against it..

again you still have an issue.

you have no proper justification in your belief here.. Your still dead in your sin. Because jesus did not suffer the punishment you deserve.

again, Spiritual death is the wage of sin, You were born dead. in sin your mother concieved you.

You must be born again. You are alive physically. through birth in the flesh. You must be made alive spiritually. through the spiritual death Jesus took on your behalf.

also. you are not explaining why Jesus screamed out.. He did not just wimper the words My God My God. he screamed them out. in extreme pain. what caused that pain. why was he silent up until the point. what happened on the 9th hour
Click to expand...
Jesus suffering spiritual death is a heresy just like PSA is a heresy. You can reason it away all you want but Jesus nor the Apostles taught with one of those false doctrines.

I’ve given what Jesus and the Apostles taught on the atonement and none of it is penal or spiritual death.
 
Eternally-Grateful said:
I find this hard to believe.

it is the basis of our faith. Its what redemption is all about
Click to expand...

Search Results for: Penal Substitutionary Atonement​

Good God, Bad God (On the Penal Substitution Theory of the Atonement)​

By Jeremy Myers

good-cop-bad-cop
The way many of us view the death of Jesus on the cross is like some poorly scripted “Good Cop, Bad Cop” scene from a crime thriller movie, except now it is “Good God, Bad God.”

You’ve seen these movies, right? Prior to questioning a suspect, the two cops agree that one will be the “Good cop” and the other will be the “bad cop.” Usually the bad cop starts questioning the suspect, and in the process gets a little unhinged and starts to threaten the suspect with death, torture, or a life sentence in prison. Then the good cop steps in with a soft voice and a soothing tone and says that he can rescue the suspect from the bad cop and all his threats if the suspect will just tell them what he knows.

In much of Christian theology, this is sort of what happened between God and Jesus as they prepared to send Jesus to earth for our deliverance. I imagine the scene to be somewhat like this:

In a back room of heaven (before the foundation of the world) God and Jesus realize that they need to get the bad guy in the interrogating room (all humans) to confess to our numerous crimes. Here is how the planning went:

God: I know what I’ll do. I’m going to tell him that although I’m only looking out for the good of the universe, and since I’m so holy and just, I just cannot stand evil and sin, and I’m gonna have to shoot him.

Jesus: Yeah! And then I’ll come in, all humble, meek, and mild, full of love and care, and say, “God loves you so much! But you are so sinful, He’s gonna have to shoot you if you don’t fix up your life and tell us all the bad stuff you’ve done.”

God: That’s good. And then maybe when he says that he is doing a pretty good job, and he doesn’t know why he’s been arrested since he hasn’t broken any law, you can raise the bar on him a bit. Blame it on me, though. Because I’m so holy.

Jesus: Okay. I could say that although you commanded them not to commit adultery, what you are really concerned about it lust. And although you said, “Don’t murder,” if they call someone a fool, it’s the same thing.

God: Right. Improvise a bit on that. Just make sure you blame it on me and my holiness. That’s key. And then, after this goes on for a while, I’ll step into the room, pull out my gun, and yell, “Enough! This man is evil. Stop beating around the bush and make him confess!” Then I’ll point the gun at his chest and pull the trigger. I’ll shoot him.

Jesus: Sounds good. That’s when I jump in front of the bullet, and die in a bloody mess right there in front of everybody. It will be great. I’ll get on the news. I’ll be the talk of the town for thousands of years. People will write books about me. Of course, you’re not going to leave me dead, right?

God: Don’t be silly. Of course not. The resurrection is the grand finale. After I shoot at the man, and then you step in front of the bullet, he will be so shocked at your love for him, especially after you laid all that guilt on him, that he will be amazed at your love. And then when I raise you from the dead — oh man, he’ll just drop down and start worshipping us. It will be awesome!
Click to expand...
Is that how it went down? Not even close.

How it all went down​

First of all, while there was a plan, the plan did not include God and Jesus playing off each other like this. They were of one mind and will toward humanity, with love as the primary motivation.

Second, while God is just and holy, and while the death of Jesus did satisfy the holiness of God in regard to our sin, this was not the only — or even the primary — reason for the death of Jesus on the cross. This is called the “appeasement theory” or “penal substitution theory” of the atonement, and is the idea that the death of Jesus appeased the wrath of God.

Such an idea comes more from Greek Pantheistic mythology than it does from Scripture. The Greeks believed (as do the people of most religions) that the gods are angry and need to be appeased (aka bribed) in order to act nicely toward humans. To appease the gods, we need to do great things for them or offer valuable possession to then, such as our prize cow, firstborn son, or virgin daughter. If the gods are impressed enough with our achievements or our sacrifice, they won’t be angry any more.

This sort of thinking has crept into Christian theology as well, so that many Christians today think that something similar went on in the death of Jesus on the cross. It goes like this: God was angry. We tried to appease Him by obeying the law and giving him bulls and goats, but it wasn’t good enough. He was still angry at our sin. Since He knew that we could never obey Him well enough or give Him a sacrifice good enough to fully satisfy our debt, He sent Jesus to pay the penalty instead. Jesus stepped in, died for us, and paid the debt. Now God loves us, just as He always wanted.

While this way of thinking fits well with pagan theology and pagan deities, it could not be further from the truth regarding the God of Scripture.

Why did Jesus die?​

Jesus did not die to appease God, but to cleanse us from sin, and deliver us from its power. Jesus died to defeat sin, death, and devil.

The death of Jesus was a rescue operation where He broke into the prison of our bondage where we were rotting in filth and decay, and through His life, death, and resurrection, demolished our chains, picked us up on His shoulders, and carried us to freedom outside of the prison walls.

If we want to liken what Jesus did to a movie, it is not a “Good Cop, Bad Cop” scene we should imagine, but Chuck Norris breaking Prisoners of War out of a military prison camp — except without all the shooting and killing. On second thought … maybe Chuck Norris isn’t the best example, but you get the idea.

The death of Jesus on the cross was to break the power of sin in our lives, and recapture for us the relationship with God that they have always wanted with us. And that is something that is Oscar-worthy. Or worship-worthy.

More>

The Substitute God and Substitutionary Atonement

redeeminggod.com

The Substitute God and Substitutionary Atonement

Substitutionary atonement is when God, out of His great love for us, allowed Jesus to became our substitute, and in Himself, defeat sin and death.
redeeminggod.com redeeminggod.com
 
Eleazar said:

Search Results for: Penal Substitutionary Atonement​

Good God, Bad God (On the Penal Substitution Theory of the Atonement)​

By Jeremy Myers

good-cop-bad-cop
The way many of us view the death of Jesus on the cross is like some poorly scripted “Good Cop, Bad Cop” scene from a crime thriller movie, except now it is “Good God, Bad God.”

You’ve seen these movies, right? Prior to questioning a suspect, the two cops agree that one will be the “Good cop” and the other will be the “bad cop.” Usually the bad cop starts questioning the suspect, and in the process gets a little unhinged and starts to threaten the suspect with death, torture, or a life sentence in prison. Then the good cop steps in with a soft voice and a soothing tone and says that he can rescue the suspect from the bad cop and all his threats if the suspect will just tell them what he knows.

In much of Christian theology, this is sort of what happened between God and Jesus as they prepared to send Jesus to earth for our deliverance. I imagine the scene to be somewhat like this:

In a back room of heaven (before the foundation of the world) God and Jesus realize that they need to get the bad guy in the interrogating room (all humans) to confess to our numerous crimes. Here is how the planning went:


Is that how it went down? Not even close.

How it all went down​

First of all, while there was a plan, the plan did not include God and Jesus playing off each other like this. They were of one mind and will toward humanity, with love as the primary motivation.

Second, while God is just and holy, and while the death of Jesus did satisfy the holiness of God in regard to our sin, this was not the only — or even the primary — reason for the death of Jesus on the cross. This is called the “appeasement theory” or “penal substitution theory” of the atonement, and is the idea that the death of Jesus appeased the wrath of God.

Such an idea comes more from Greek Pantheistic mythology than it does from Scripture. The Greeks believed (as do the people of most religions) that the gods are angry and need to be appeased (aka bribed) in order to act nicely toward humans. To appease the gods, we need to do great things for them or offer valuable possession to then, such as our prize cow, firstborn son, or virgin daughter. If the gods are impressed enough with our achievements or our sacrifice, they won’t be angry any more.

This sort of thinking has crept into Christian theology as well, so that many Christians today think that something similar went on in the death of Jesus on the cross. It goes like this: God was angry. We tried to appease Him by obeying the law and giving him bulls and goats, but it wasn’t good enough. He was still angry at our sin. Since He knew that we could never obey Him well enough or give Him a sacrifice good enough to fully satisfy our debt, He sent Jesus to pay the penalty instead. Jesus stepped in, died for us, and paid the debt. Now God loves us, just as He always wanted.

While this way of thinking fits well with pagan theology and pagan deities, it could not be further from the truth regarding the God of Scripture.

Why did Jesus die?​

Jesus did not die to appease God, but to cleanse us from sin, and deliver us from its power. Jesus died to defeat sin, death, and devil.

The death of Jesus was a rescue operation where He broke into the prison of our bondage where we were rotting in filth and decay, and through His life, death, and resurrection, demolished our chains, picked us up on His shoulders, and carried us to freedom outside of the prison walls.

If we want to liken what Jesus did to a movie, it is not a “Good Cop, Bad Cop” scene we should imagine, but Chuck Norris breaking Prisoners of War out of a military prison camp — except without all the shooting and killing. On second thought … maybe Chuck Norris isn’t the best example, but you get the idea.

The death of Jesus on the cross was to break the power of sin in our lives, and recapture for us the relationship with God that they have always wanted with us. And that is something that is Oscar-worthy. Or worship-worthy.

More>

The Substitute God and Substitutionary Atonement

redeeminggod.com

The Substitute God and Substitutionary Atonement

Substitutionary atonement is when God, out of His great love for us, allowed Jesus to became our substitute, and in Himself, defeat sin and death.
redeeminggod.com redeeminggod.com
Click to expand...


The wage of sin is death

Gods justice demands that payment

Its like a judge who imposes a death penalty on a crime that was commited. That is the judgment. It does not make the judge evil if he imposes and carries out a death penalty.

Scripture all over shows the price of redemption and the justice system. the law being a huge proponent.. as it pictures this justice system as cursed is anyone who does not obey every word.

Paul said it was Jesus who took this curse for us. He appeased Gods anger. He made redemption.. He propitiated us by taking what we owe God and paying for it himself

physical death is not the penalty of sin. Spiritual death is. thats why we need to be made alive.. if we want to spend eternity in heaven.

in order for us to be born again, or made spiritually alive. or we who were dead in tresspasses and sins to be made alive

Someone would have to pay that in our place.
 
Eternally-Grateful said:
The wage of sin is death

Gods justice demands that payment

Its like a judge who imposes a death penalty on a crime that was commited. That is the judgment. It does not make the judge evil if he imposes and carries out a death penalty.

Scripture all over shows the price of redemption and the justice system. the law being a huge proponent.. as it pictures this justice system as cursed is anyone who does not obey every word.

Paul said it was Jesus who took this curse for us. He appeased Gods anger. He made redemption.. He propitiated us by taking what we owe God and paying for it himself

physical death is not the penalty of sin. Spiritual death is. thats why we need to be made alive.. if we want to spend eternity in heaven.

in order for us to be born again, or made spiritually alive. or we who were dead in tresspasses and sins to be made alive

Someone would have to pay that in our place.
Click to expand...
Show me where Gods justice demands payment ?

Please quote God saying that
 
civic said:
Jesus suffering spiritual death is a heresy just like PSA is a heresy.
Click to expand...
then you are still dead in your sin

Saying jesus did not die what I owe God is heresy

Your giving legalists a platform saying Jesus did not pay for your sin
civic said:
You can reason it away all you want but Jesus nor the Apostles taught with one of those false doctrines.
Click to expand...
lol.. I showed you the greek meaning of the word depart.

Justification is a legal term

I love ya brother, and I know you are my brother. But your dead wrong here.


civic said:
I’ve given what Jesus and the Apostles taught on the atonement and none of it is penal or spiritual death.
Click to expand...
I have given what Jesus taught, and in fact the word taught.

and Jesus paying the debt I owe is the price of redemption

I was dead spiritually

Spiritual death has to be the price paid.


thats who much Jesus loved me, for the first time in eternality. he was separated from the father and spirit..

thats what Made him cry out. You have yet to give me a reason he cried out.. so loud they could hear him all pover

not to mention. the sky turned black. it was not a solar eclipse or a cloud. it was the fact God turned his back on the earth.

Because my sin was placed on his body;.
 
Eternally-Grateful said:
The wage of sin is death

Gods justice demands that payment

Its like a judge who imposes a death penalty on a crime that was commited. That is the judgment. It does not make the judge evil if he imposes and carries out a death penalty.

Scripture all over shows the price of redemption and the justice system. the law being a huge proponent.. as it pictures this justice system as cursed is anyone who does not obey every word.

Paul said it was Jesus who took this curse for us. He appeased Gods anger. He made redemption.. He propitiated us by taking what we owe God and paying for it himself

physical death is not the penalty of sin. Spiritual death is. thats why we need to be made alive.. if we want to spend eternity in heaven.

in order for us to be born again, or made spiritually alive. or we who were dead in tresspasses and sins to be made alive

Someone would have to pay that in our place.r
Click to expand...
Most States it's the jury that gives the sentence in a capital murder case. And for it to be death it has to be a most heinous crime. There also are disputes about whether capital punishment can be administered in a manner consistent with justice. Those who support capital punishment believe that it is possible to fashion laws and procedures that ensure that only those who are really deserving of death are executed.

By contrast, opponents maintain that the historical application of capital punishment shows that any attempt to single out certain kinds of crime as deserving of death will inevitably be arbitrary and discriminatory. They also point to other factors that they think preclude the possibility that capital punishment can be fairly applied, arguing that the poor and ethnic and religious minorities often do not have access to good legal assistance, that racial prejudice motivates predominantly white juries in capital cases to convict black and other nonwhite defendants in disproportionate numbers, and that, because errors are inevitable even in a well-run criminal justice system, some people will be executed for crimes they did not commit.

Then you have the appeals process for death sentences is protracted, those condemned to death are often cruelly forced to endure long periods of uncertainty about their fate.

I think that, by legitimizing the very behavior that the law seeks to repress—killing—capital punishment is counterproductive in the moral message it conveys. Same with PSA.
 
Eternally-Grateful said:
The wage of sin is death

Gods justice demands that payment

Its like a judge who imposes a death penalty on a crime that was commited. That is the judgment. It does not make the judge evil if he imposes and carries out a death penalty.

Scripture all over shows the price of redemption and the justice system. the law being a huge proponent.. as it pictures this justice system as cursed is anyone who does not obey every word.

Paul said it was Jesus who took this curse for us. He appeased Gods anger. He made redemption.. He propitiated us by taking what we owe God and paying for it himself

physical death is not the penalty of sin. Spiritual death is. thats why we need to be made alive.. if we want to spend eternity in heaven.

in order for us to be born again, or made spiritually alive. or we who were dead in tresspasses and sins to be made alive

Someone would have to pay that in our place.
Click to expand...
Nowhere does God say His Son was guilty of anything on the cross or that justice was served or demanded by the Father towards the Son. The same goes with wrath. Its not found in Scripture but in the teachings of men.

Gods justice is served via the faithfulness of Christ ( Romans 1:16-17, Romans 3:21-22. ) Romans 5:1- Because we have been justified out of the faith/faithfulness, we have peace with God.

God has made us right/just by the faithfulness of Christ, by which we have peace with God through Jesus Christ. God has done this apart from the law. Romans 3:21. Gods "justice " is served by the faithfulness of Christ. Jesus is the righteous servant, the one who brings forth justice to the nations. Isaiah 42:1-4. He is the covenant, the new covenant Romans 10:4, Hebrews 8-9, the one whom the law is fulfilled and the one who reveals Gods righteousness/the just one for the nations both Jew and Gentile.

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. For it reveals the justice of God from faith to faith- Romans 1:16-17. Gods love, grace, mercy and redemption are at the center of the cross.

The cross if anything was injustice. The murder of the innocent is injustice in any court of law. He was tried on false charges by false witnessses, convicted without evidence and murdered without due process of the law. They killed Him, not God. His life was taken unlawfully and injustice was served. The very ones He came to save murdered Him. Those who commit murder as the law of God states must die, but Jesus murderers lived. Thats injustice. The entire penal aspect of the atonement is a farce.

If the killing of Jesus was a "righteous" act that pleased God then why would those who murdered Him need forgiveness ? The fact is a crime was committed by those who killed Jesus and were guilty for His death. There was no justice but injustice in His death. I will be adding more of this to my paper on the Nature of God in the Atonement exposing more false teachings of PSA.

This is exactly what it say in Isaiah 53- we considered Him smitten, not God. Its the people who put Him on trial and killed Him. His cross was a crime uf unjust punishment. There is no law of retribution in the atonement that is what PSA advocates would have us believe. The cross is about REDEMPTION not retribution.

James 2:13- For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Romans 3:25- God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement( mercy seat, expiation) through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

Gods justice leads to mercy which results in forgiveness. Jesus atonement for our sins is an act of God showing His grace, mercy, love, forgiveness and redemption via His Son. The Just ( Jesus ) for the unjust ( us sinners ).

The purpose of the Incarnation is that the Eternal Son identifies with us in our humanity, becomes sin for us, bears our sins, destroys sin and the devil and his works, and restores/reconciles us with God as our substitute. The atonement has nothing to do with wrath and retribution, but forgiveness and restoration. The Son diverts wrath, it is passed over since He is the Passover. Gods wrath falls upon the sinner, the unbeliever, the unfaithful, the reprobate, wicked- never on the innocent, the faithful, believers, saints, etc.....

When we study Jesus teachings about the Kingdom of God we discover its not about justice, retribution, retaliation etc........

Matthew 5:38-48
38“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.
40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.
41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles.
42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

The Parable of the Lost son- the son did not get what he deserved from the Father but welcomed him back into the family. There was no justice served to the wayward son that returned.

The Parable of the laborers in the vineyard- the ones who came late received the same wages as the ones who worked all day. They received more than they deserved- what is just Matthew 20:4. In both of these we see the Father who is merciful, forgiving not punishing and dishing out justice- what they deserved under the law. By the standards of their day it was an injustice for those who worked a couple of hours being paid the same wages as the ones who worked all day.

Jesus even on the cross suffering more than can be humanly imagined reveals the very heart of God which is not justice, retribution, vengeance, wrath, anger but its LOVE- Father forgive them for they know not what they do. And today He said to the criminal you will be with Me in paradise. We see Gods love, mercy and forgiveness demonstrated not His justice on the cross which coincides with Jesus teachings on the Kingdom.

Jesus on the cross reveals the very heart of God, the heart of Gods Kingdom.

I like Paul can say- the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. 1 Corinthians 1:18-19
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

The calvinists and reformers have the cross all wrong and have turned it upside down. PSA is an assault on our Gods nature and character.

You have embraced the teaching of calvin with PSA.

hope this helps !!!
 
Pancho Frijoles said:
In confusing symbols with meanings. In choosing wrath as the engine of religion, and hell (not Christ) as the rock of thoughts and actions.
Click to expand...

Those who deny God is holy WILL pay the price.

Hell is real.
 
civic said:
Nowhere does God say His Son was guilty of anything on the cross or that justice was served or demanded by the Father towards the Son. The same goes with wrath. Its not found in Scripture but in the teachings of men.
Click to expand...
and no one said he was guilty, If he was guilty (he was a spotted lamb, and not a lamb unspotted) his sacrifice would have been null and void.

Our sin was placed in his body,, and he took what we owe.. so we could be set free

he who knew no sin became sin for us.. that we might be made the righteousness of Christ in him
 
Eternally-Grateful said:
and no one said he was guilty, If he was guilty (he was a spotted lamb, and not a lamb unspotted) his sacrifice would have been null and void.

Our sin was placed in his body,, and he took what we owe.. so we could be set free

he who knew no sin became sin for us.. that we might be made the righteousness of Christ in him
Click to expand...
You are slowly coming around. :)
 
civic said:
Nope the substitution theory was 1,500 years before the penal one with the ECF, and before that the Apostles and Jesus. Church history is on my side :) Next fallacy .
Click to expand...

Athanasius wrote in 330 AD:

"And Psalm 22, speaking in the Saviour's own person, describes the manner of His death. Thou has brought me into the dust of death, for many dogs have compassed me, the assembly of the wicked have laid siege to me. They pierced my hands and my feet, they numbered all my bones, they gazed and stared at me, they parted my garments among them and cast lots for my vesture. They pierced my hands and my feet- what else can that mean except the cross? and Psalms 22 and 69, again speaking in the Lord's own person, tell us further that He suffered these things, not for His own sake but for ours. Thou has made Thy wrath to rest upon me, says the one; and the other adds, I paid them things I never took. For He did not die as being Himself liable to death: He suffered for us, and bore in Himself the wrath that was the penalty of our transgression, even as Isaiah says, Himself bore our weaknesses. [Mt 8:17] So in Psalm 138 we say, The Lord will make requital for me; and in the 72nd the Spirit says, He shall save the children of the poor and bring the slanderer low, for from the hand of the mighty He has set the poor man free, the needy man whom there was none to help." (A Letter of St. Athanasius to Marcellinus)

St. John Chrysostom wrote around 390 AD:

Just as when two people turn their backs on each other and do not wish to be reconciled, someone else must come to intervene and break down the enmity between them, so this is what Christ did. God was angry with us, we had turned away from God, the Master who loves mankind, and by putting Himself in between, Christ reconciled both natures. And how did he come between them? He took on Himself the punishment that we deserved from the Father and endured the disgrace and insults that we inflicted on God. Do you desire to learn how he assumed both that punishment from on high and these insults here below? It is said, Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us (Gal 3:13). See then how He received the punishment inflicted from above? Consider how He also endured the insults inflicted here below. The insults of those who insult you, He says, have fallen on me (Ps 68:10). See how he dissolved the enmity, how He did not cease to do, suffer, and painstakingly perform all things until He had brought the adversary and enemy back to God Himself and made him a friend? (Homily on the Ascension of the Lord)
 
Last edited:
civic said:
Nope the substitution theory was 1,500 years before the penal one with the ECF, and before that the Apostles and Jesus. Church history is on my side :)

Next fallacy .
Click to expand...
church history thinks Mary died a virgin, She is the mother of God. the eucharist is Jesus literal blood and flesh.

I will take the word of God over history of men.

Gods justice was satisfied. this is penal substitution 101

if his justice is not satisfied. then we are still dead in our sin
 

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