My full defense of PSA

[Dizerner]

Actually, no it doesn’t.
Redemption of man requires the blood of Christ, but God states no prerequisites to His forgiveness.

False. Let us bow to Scripture instead.

without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. (Heb. 9:22)

25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood-- to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--
26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Rom. 3:25-26 NIV)

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (Matt. 26:28 NIV)

 

[civic]

False. Let us bow to Scripture instead.

without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. (Heb. 9:22)

25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood-- to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--
26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Rom. 3:25-26 NIV)

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (Matt. 26:28 NIV)

Wrong

Psalm 78:38
And yet He was compassionate; He forgave their iniquity and did not destroy them. He often restrained His anger and did not unleash His full wrath.


Psalm 85:1-3
You, Lord, showed favor to your land;
you restored the fortunes of Jacob.
2 You forgave the iniquity of your people
and covered all their sins.
3 You set aside all your wrath
and turned from your fierce anger

And how many times did Jesus tell someone their sins were forgiven with no sacrifice required?

Next fallacy

 

[Dizerner]

And how many times did Jesus tell someone their sins were forgiven with no sacrifice required?

Jesus sacrificed WAS required.

The Scriptures I posted are CRYSTAL clear.

I do not set aside the grace of God,
for if righteousness could be gained through the law,
Christ died for nothing!
(Gal. 2:21)

 

[civic]

Jesus sacrificed WAS required.

The Scriptures I posted are CRYSTAL clear.

I do not set aside the grace of God,
for if righteousness could be gained through the law,
Christ died for nothing!
(Gal. 2:21)

Nope He forgave them before He died. In fact they didn’t even know He was going to die.

Next fallacy

 

[civic]

Those He forgave did not know He was going to die and neither did His disciples

Luke 9:43-45
While everyone was marveling at all that Jesus did, he said to his disciples, 44 “Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you: The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.” 45 But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it.

Jesus predicts His death a 3rd time

Luke 18:31-34
Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; 33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”
34 The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.


Luke 24:25-26
He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?

John 12:16
At first His disciples did not understand these things, but after Jesus was glorified they remembered what had been done to Him, and they realized that these very things had also been written about Him.

John 13
Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand…. I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.”

 

[Dizerner]

Nope He forgave them before He died. In fact they didn’t even know He was going to die.

It is not only unsustainable to think Christ's suffering is superfluous to the remission of sins, it is downright insane.

Do NOT approach a Holy God without an atonement for your sins in Christ.

 

[Dizerner]

Those He forgave did not know He was going to die and neither did His disciples

Cherry-picking fallacy ignoring Scriptures specifically given to explain the basis of all forgiveness.

 

[civic]

It is not only unsustainable to think Christ's suffering is superfluous to the remission of sins, it is downright insane.

Do NOT approach a Holy God without an atonement for your sins in Christ.

1-JESUS FORGAVE THE SINS OF A MAN AFFLICTED WITH PALSY (Luke 5:17-26)
2-JESUS FORGAVE THE SINS OF A WOMAN WHO WASHED AND ANOINTED HIS FEET (Luke 7:36-50)
3-JESUS FORGAVE THE SINS OF ONE OF THE THIEVES CRUCIFIED WITH HIM (Luke 23:39-43)
Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.”

Mark 2:5
When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

John 8:11
“No one, Lord,” she answered. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Now go and sin no more.”

Matthew 9:6
But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...” Then He said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your mat, and go home.”

Mark 2:10
But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...” He said to the paralytic,

 

[Dizerner]

Cherry-picking fallacy ignoring Scriptures specifically given to explain the basis of all forgiveness.

We do not interpret verses by treating them like they are little islands unto themselves.

Scripture explains Scripture.

 

[civic]

Cherry-picking fallacy ignoring Scriptures specifically given to explain the basis of all forgiveness.

We do not interpret verses by treating them like they are little islands unto themselves.

Scripture explains Scripture.

then you should reject PSA since it comes from a solitary verse in Isaiah. an entire theological atonement theory based on 1 verse.

next fallacy

 

[praise_yeshua]

Just to clear some things up here.

Original Sin teaches that everyone spiritually died in Adam, and thus are born children of wrath by nature. This is a different doctrine than Original Guilt which teaches Adam's specific sin was attributes to each of his progeny. However, it does end up still that all people are born sinners. There is a preponderance of Biblical support that one man's sin brought condemnation to all.

Yes, one sin infinitely offends God, or an endless hell would not logically make sense. You would literally have to deny hell and become an annihilationist to reject that logic.

Sins were not "paid" for by animals, this is not what anyone teaches, it's a straw man misrepresentation. The animals symbolized the once-for-all payment to come in Christ, and God accepted that faith in Christ's vicarious sacrifice.

Of course God could have logically set up a different justice system or decided not to be holy, he has that power. There is nothing disputable in attributing to God the power to be whatever he wants, as he specifically claims he can.

Forgiveness from God must require Christ to suffer the penalty of sin. This is what separates Christianity out from Muslims and moralistic works-oriented deities who allow people to somehow work off their sin before a holy God.

Yes, Christ is the only one with the worth to redeem humanity. This should not even be in dispute. Yes, Christ become a human being to take our place for us—why else would he even do it? To put humanity on the pedestal and say how great we are?

Yes, Christ takes the penalty of sin. Else God is actually permissive towards evil, and we know that is not true. Else God violates his own Holy Law and we know that is not true. This is the source of our redemption—the suffering of Christ for our sins. We see the picture God chose to represent Christ on the Cross was actually a snake on a pole—please deeply pray and think about that.

Imprecise descriptions of condemnation are unhelpful, there is no literally separation of ontology. Nothing can literally be separated from God.

Please give this some original thought and prayer instead of watching another anti-PSA video, because this is an important truth.

I haven't watched a single antiPSA video. I don't need to.

What right did Adam have to Eternal Life? God made things that die without Him from the very beginning of this world. Your idea the one single sin damned the entire human race is preposterous. Adam and Eve didn't do anything that was worthy of damnation in everlasting torment.

 

[civic]

I haven't watched a single antiPSA video. I don't need to.

What right did Adam have to Eternal Life? God made things that die without Him from the very beginning of this world. Your idea the one single sin damned the entire human race is preposterous. Adam and Eve didn't do anything that was worthy of damnation in everlasting torment.

he and many others have bought into the augustinian lies that came from the greeks, pagans and gnostics.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It is not only unsustainable to think Christ's suffering is superfluous to the remission of sins, it is downright insane.

Do NOT approach a Holy God without an atonement for your sins in Christ.

God was rather kind and caring toward Adam and Eve. He gave them both what they wanted and what they needed. He gave them ability to have things their own way. To have freedom to do most anything they desired. Isn't that man wants today. To be left alone? To work things out on their own? They is what our children ultimately want themselves. They needed to learn what they would cause in "having it their way".

I tell what God did. He just keep loving them and chasing after them. He even answered their prayers when they couldn't fix messes they got themselves into.

Act 14:16 In past generations he allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways.

Act 14:17 Yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness.”

This damnation you're looking for only comes from rejecting God's offering in the Atonement. Not what Adam and Eve did.

 

[Dizerner]

I haven't watched a single antiPSA video. I don't need to.

The comment was not addressed to you, to be clear.

Your idea the one single sin damned the entire human race is preposterous. Adam and Eve didn't do anything that was worthy of damnation in everlasting torment.

Here you reject Scripture, and you reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

If you do not think sin is worthy of condemnation, then your sins need no atonement and no salvation.

You WILL face God's wrath for all eternity by rejecting the Biblical Cross of Jesus as atonement for sins.

And your spiritual blood is not on my hands.

 

[Dizerner]

he and many others have bought into the augustinian lies that came from the greeks, pagans and gnostics.

The genetic fallacy and hand-waving fallacy are completely unconvincing.

You have neither established any logical connection to Paganism and Gnosticism other than a bare unjustified assertion, nor have you at any single time somehow disconnected or disproved the clear Scriptural support I constantly offer. I do not think you even legitimately understand Gnosticism or Paganism to even make such a critique, and are just regurgitating a line you heard from others. I have also authoritatively (including the original Greek) established early church fathers who clearly taught lawful substitutionary atonement before Augustine.

In short, your objection is an unfounded and absurd.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The comment was not addressed to you, to be clear.



Here you reject Scripture, and you reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

If you do not think sin is worthy of condemnation, then your sins need no atonement and no salvation.

You WILL face God's wrath for all eternity by rejecting the Biblical Cross of Jesus as atonement for sins.

And your spiritual blood is not on my hands.

I haven't rejected the Atonement. You dishonor the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It is only the rejection of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that merits everlasting torment. Not some thoughts of damnation for a single sin.

My blood was never on your hands.

 

[Dizerner]

My blood was never on your hands.

Scripture disagrees.

When I say to the wicked,`You shall surely die,' and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. (Ezek. 3:18 NKJ)

You also create some weird version of atonement that violates what atonement even means.

This is terminology hijacking, and still denying a Biblical atonement.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The genetic fallacy and hand-waving fallacy are completely unconvincing.

You have neither established any logical connection to Paganism and Gnosticism other than a bare unjustified assertion, nor have you at any single time somehow disconnected or disproved the clear Scriptural support I constantly offer. I do not think you even legitimately understand Gnosticism or Paganism to even make such a critique, and are just regurgitating a line you heard from others. I have also authoritatively (including the original Greek) established early church fathers who clearly taught lawful substitutionary atonement before Augustine.

In short, your objection is an unfounded and absurd.

So. Augustine talked extensively about his life as a sinner. Where do you think Augustine embraced Paganism? Manichaeism?

 

[Dizerner]

It is only the rejection of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that merits everlasting torment.

Also this is false.

It is sin that is the basis for everlasting torment.

Not just rejecting the solution for sin.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Scripture disagrees.

When I say to the wicked,`You shall surely die,' and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. (Ezek. 3:18 NKJ)

You also create some weird version of atonement that violates what atonement even means.

This is terminology hijacking, and still denying a Biblical atonement.

Expand. Elaborate. Get this blood off your hands. You haven't spent enough time cleaning your hands with me.

I know Ezekiel 3:18. I'll take his word for it. Not how you're trying to make yourself the arbitrator between me and God.

So how am I hijacking terminology. I'll listen.