You are positing traducianism. That is wrong. Our spirits come from God; they do not come from our parents. And the tendency to sin certainly does not emanate from the sperm of the father.
Kirk Cameron and annihilationism
- Thread starter civic
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I believe Jesus paid in full for our (the very elect) sin debt which was DEATH, period. He never suffered in a burning hell for one second, even though I do believe that all of the wicked will perish in the lake of fires after the final judgment in that day, which IS the second and final death for them. It is indeed an everlasting judgment since there is no reversal of this final judgment.
Let us discuss this in depth.
Let us discuss this in depth.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Why dont you start a thread titled Annihilationism debate/discussion.?
I , personally am not qualified to out and out debate this with you because I , for one have always thought it would be more merciful for the wicked to eventually cease. But at what torture before they are gone?
You still are with your predestination foothold in beliefs and I still am free-will so right there by your statement (the very elect) we are at odds.
But maybe some of those in agreement with you will debate this point.
I just think you need to start a dedicated thread to this and Ill be watching for the comments and where I feel you just might be in error.
he came down from heaven, so was Deity in nature, and now also sinless humanity in nature
There would be no true Judgement based upon severity of their sins, for a "good person: ends up in same judgement as a Hitler does
@JesusFan
First, there are none good but God alone. All others are born in sin and come forth from the womb, speaking lies and hating all except themselves ~as God defines hate and love, not as vain man does.
Secondly, have you never read so much as this:
Daniel 3:27 ~ “And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.”
Even when God cast all of the wicked in the lake of fire, he also has the power to determine the decree of hurt it shall have on each and every one of them, since he is sovereign over all things, even a world that shall be destroy by fervent heat.
Yes, there can be.
First, there are none good but God alone. All others are born in sin and come forth from the womb, speaking lies and hating all except themselves ~as God defines hate and love, not as vain man does.
Secondly, have you never read so much as this:
Daniel 3:27 ~ “And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.”
Even when God cast all of the wicked in the lake of fire, he also has the power to determine the decree of hurt it shall have on each and every one of them, since he is sovereign over all things, even a world that shall be destroy by fervent heat.
@JesusFan
Jesus' deity consist by the very fact that the Highest conceived Jesus in Mary's womb. His humanity came by the fact that he was made flesh and came in the likeness of sinful flesh, yet sinless, by being conceived by the Holy Ghost. (Galatians 4:4; Romans 8:3; Romans 1:4; etc.)
Good morning, Red. I hope all is well with you and your family.
Jesus' deity was not because of any aspect of His flesh, conceived by the Holy Spirit or not. Jesus' deity was due to the fact that He was God who took on the flesh and blood of a human being. His deity is fully described by John 1:1-4. We humans are flesh and blood with a spirit given us from God. Jesus was flesh and blood with a Spirit that was God.
@Jim
Jim, I been thinking of you a lot lately seeing what is going on in Tucson, which is not that far from you, a couple hundred miles from you to the south east. You live where the rent is much higher!
Brother, I think we're saying the same thing, please consider: the only way possible according to what you are saying is that Jesus had to be conceived in the manner in which Jesus was conceived, so what I said is scriptural.
Jim, I been thinking of you a lot lately seeing what is going on in Tucson, which is not that far from you, a couple hundred miles from you to the south east. You live where the rent is much higher!
Jesus was and is very God
@JesusFan
Key Differences:
I understand this truth and have defended it for over fifty plus years. Jesus was indeed a complex person, fully human, yet fully God. I understand what "fully" means, yet very God, does not carry the same meaning.
Key Differences:
- Definition & Usage:
- So, I chose to used "fully" to best describe our Lord's deity.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I actually hold a position somewhere in-between.
I believe within the seed of the women and the seed of the man, there are innate qualities of existence that at conception, produce a "living soul" or "breath". Whether in extant Hebrew or Greek, this always comes back to "breath".
Genesis 2:7 uniquely speaks of Adam. I believe the formation of Eve from Adam "split" this "breath" between them. It is one of the reasons why, if you study what most people teach as the "side/rib" of Adam, they actually get it wrong.
Adam shared (not split) his "breath" with Eve. It is extraordinarily meaningful aspect of the union of God with humanity in the relationship a man shares with a women. A "bride".
Either way, it all came from God. Which is what matters. I don't believe there is a "collections" of souls that get imparted to fetuses when they are born or conceived. They "become" living souls through the union of male and female seed within the womb and that "breath" is more than lungs.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Just a thought..... make of it what you will. If you want to discuss, I'd like to.....
When Jesus arose from the grave, was he breathing air?
When Jesus arose from the grave, was he breathing air?
I agree swith you, as jesus was and is in his Person Fully God also fully Sinless Man
AaronH
Active Member
For sure.
Agreed. God looks at the heart and there will be no one without a genuinely repentant heart that is fully on God’s side and following Him who makes it into heaven.
As I alluded to God will not be fooled, no doubt about it, we are in full agreement there.
I know several people, some quite close, for whom going through a sort of hell on earth brought them to the light. Are those people disqualified? Of course not, but I guess you could say “they should have turned before all the difficulty.” Yes it would have been better if they had. The reality is most people do have their faith formed in some way by great loss or difficulty. Thomas the disciple even comes to mind. Would it have been better had he believed before seeing the scars. Well, yeah, but that certainly doesn’t disqualify him for believing after seeing. Do you agree?
At least for the purposes of this discussion I’d like to "leave Satan out of it" if you will.
I think most of what you say in this section ironically reinforces my point. Kids born into a truly Christian family have an extreme advantage with regard to developing saving faith in this lifetime. I think based on the “facts on the ground” that we see in this world, there really is no other possible option that would withstand any definition of love or fairness than that death not be the end of any chance to be saved. (if the postmillennialists are right, maybe one day that won't be the case, but we certainly aren't there yet)
You say “isn’t it unfair that people after death would still get to develop faith?” I'd answer "is it fair that we get to be saved in this life?" We imagine it would be too obvious after death. Maybe, maybe not. What actually is hell? It’s mentioned astonishingly few times in the bible (very little in the NT and almost never in the OT). All we really have are metaphors (fire, outer darkness, etc).
The truth is we don’t know what the unsaved really will experience there, but nowhere in the bible does it say people don’t have chances beyond death. Given that we serve a God of love (key word “of”) I think the default should be that he would seldom if ever create humans in such a way that they are capable of forever rejecting him. I suspect that most of the unsaved, if they were put in the same circumstances as you and I, would have faith before death.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Reasoned. Sensible. Can't say that I can outright deny anything you said.
I would like to include Satan because I think "Satan" can actually define the severity of God. What is God capable of in contrast to the seemingly endless and bountiful love of Christ.
Is Satan due everlasting torment? There is a long history of "long-suffering" even for Satan. Tolerance. Forbearance. However, there judgement is significant.
2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but threw them into hell and locked them up in chains in utter darkness, to be kept until the judgment,
2Pe 2:5 and if he did not spare the ancient world, but did protect Noah, a herald of righteousness, along with seven others, when God brought a flood on an ungodly world,
2Pe 2:6 and if he turned to ashes the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah when he condemned them to destruction, having appointed them to serve as an example to future generations of the ungodly,
These are difficult issues.
I have ask myself. Can a person, once judged in significant retribution, ever truly change their minds?
Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
"Living creature" from the Hebrew "chay nephesh"
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
"Living soul" from the Hebrew "chay nephesh"
So tell me @praise_yeshua, what is the difference between the living creatures of Genesis 1:24 and the living soul of Genesis 2:7?
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Characteristics. "Living soul" is rather broad term. We can see/examine these "creatures" that God created. Their "seed" still remains with us today. Nature teaches us.
Relative to your appeal to "chay nephesh"?
Like I've said. Hebrew has a very complicated history. Modern Block Script Hebrew is nothing more than a translation through various iterations over five thousands years. Modern Block Script Hebrew is often used to deny our Lord Jesus Christ. What Moses wrote most accurate survives in the Greek language of the Greek OT manuscripts.
Genesis 1:24 from Codex Alexandrinus
καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός· ἐξαγαγέτω ἡ γῆ ψυχὴν ζῶσαν κατὰ γένος, τετράποδα καὶ ἑρπετὰ καὶ θηρία τῆς γῆς κατὰ γένος· καὶ ἐγένετο οὕτως.
And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: cattle/four-footed animals, creeping things, and beasts/wild animals of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so.
Genesis 2:7 from Codex Alexandrinus
καὶ ἔπλασεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν ἄνθρωπον χοῦν ἀπὸ τῆς γῆς καὶ ἐνεφύσησεν εἰς τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ πνοὴν ζωῆς, καὶ ἐγένετο ὁ ἄνθρωπος εἰς ψυχὴν ζῶσαν.
And God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his face the breath of life; and the man became a living soul.
ψυχὴν ζῶσαν is identical in both verses. The creatures that survive today that we can equally compare are not. They are similar but not identical.
That is why there are more words in the Greek language than just ψυχὴν ζῶσαν.
We can talk about other relative verses if you like.
