PSA as central to the Gospel

Believing in Him is the fruit of Christ having died for an individual.
Biblically, believing in our Lord is the result/fruit of hearing the Good News of God's salvation through Jesus Christ.

Our salvation is the result/fruit of our Lord dying for our sins in accordance with our Father's will.

God Bless
 
That's what I just said
There is a difference between what I stated and what you stated. You think our Lord died only for a randomly chosen set of people God chose to save, and that upon His death they were saved without them even knowing it, and then God regenerates them prior to faith so that they will believe. While the bible is quite clear He experienced death for everyone, and those who believe God's message of salvation through Jesus Christ receive the free gift of righteousness-justification, along with receiving the Spirit of our God that gives them a new life upon repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.

So, when you state, "Believing in Him is the fruit of Christ having died for an individual."; you are meaning what I stated above; that His death was only experienced for a randomly chosen set of people who were saved when He died, and the result/fruit of His targeted death is manifested when one of the chosen targets believes.

We are nowhere near the same in meaning, not even close.

God Bless
 
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There is a difference between what I stated and what you stated. You think our Lord died only for a randomly chosen set of people God chose to save, and that upon His death they were saved without them even knowing it, and then God regenerates them prior to faith so that they will believe.
Yeah that's true but I wouldn't say that they were randomly chosen they were just chosen according to His own will and purpose.
 
Please quote God's command that hardened Pharaoh's heart to sin against Him. You cannot because it is not in the bible. God did not command Pharaoh's heart to be hard-strengthened against Him. He said He would harden-strengthen it.

So, what action did God take that hardened Pharaoh's heart to resist His command to let his people go?

Answer: God did not show him any mercy or compassion. The actions God took were not to convince Pharaoh to repent but strengthen him in his determination to resist Him. God did not cause him to sin. He was already a sinner who was resistive from the start. God simply acted in such a way that used Pharaoh's sinfulness to show His power and spread His name in all the earth.

Pharaoh was already harden towards God when Moses and Aaron first approached and gave Him God's command. Pharaoh said, "Who is the LORD, that I should obey His voice to let Israel go? I do not know the LORD, nor will I let Israel go."

The ten plagues demonstrated God's sovereignty over Egypt's false gods, and Pharaoh who was considered a god. Six of the ten plagues (1-5,7) Pharaoh hardened his own heart. The remaining four (6,8-10) God hardened his heart. Pharaoh could have repented after six of the ten plagues, but he only hardened-strengthened his own determination to resist God. And God did not sin against Pharaoh, or make Pharaoh sin when he didn't show him mercy or compassion in His actions that would have softened Pharaoh's heart towards him; this is what God meant when He said He would harden Pharaoh's heart. God's intentions towards Pharaoh were to use his willing sinfulness against himself. It was not to use His power to cause him to sin.

Man is responsible for his own actions. No one can blame God for what he has done, even when God decides to withhold mercy and compassion that would have caused man to reconsider his actions.

My claim that God never decrees that man sin against Him is not false. Like I have already stated to you, God's decretive will cannot conflict with His permissive will. God never decrees that man sin against Him (for He would be the cause of the sin), but He permits it to accomplish His decretive will.

God Bless
Yes the 2 wills doctrine is complete nonsense.
 
I'm just learning about this doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement and it just seems off to me. Is it an
Appeasement of a Monster God as some say?

The doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement has come under particularly intense scrutiny in recent years. Critics claim that it is a fairly recent innovation with little support prior to the Reformation, and that it depicts Yahweh as comparable with the pagan deities of the OT. This article makes the case that, on the contrary, the substance of penal substitutionary atonement has been taught from the church’s earliest days, arguing that the doctrine stems directly from a careful, thoughtful engagement with Scripture, which from beginning to end points toward the sacrificial death of Israel’s Messiah.

The doctrine of the atonement has generated no shortage of controversy throughout Christian history. Perhaps as much is to be expected; what Christ accomplished on the cross cuts to the very heart of how believers are to understand the gospel. However, the penal substitutionary model has incurred particularly intense scrutiny. This view, alternatively labeled representative substitution, is defined by British theologian J. I. Packer as the conviction that the atonement involves “the innocent taking the place of the guilty, in the name and for the sake of the guilty, under the axe of God’s judicial retribution.”

Likewise, philosopher and apologist William Lane Craig, a staunch defender of penal substitution, has defined it as “the doctrine that God inflicted upon Christ the suffering which we deserved as the punishment for our sins, as a result of which we no longer deserve punishment.”

Though its proponents argue the view to be thoroughly biblical and demonstrably historical, this understanding of Christ’s work has been attacked on both accounts, often quite vehemently, by its detractors. Some who reject the penal substitutionary model assert that it is a Reformation, or at best medieval, invention that finds no support throughout the first millennium of the church. For example, the former Anglican Archbishop of Perth, Peter Carnley, derides the it as “inadequate” and charges that it “has been criticized in the course of history of Christian theology right from the moment it was first articulated by St. Anselm in the Middle Ages.”

Moreover, the doctrine has also been criticized as a distortion of Scripture, nowhere clearly taught in the Old or New Testaments. It has been blasted as a barbaric distortion of God’s character that places him in the category of pagan gods such as Molech, depicting him as a “monster God” who is appeased only “through the barbarism of child sacrifice.” Detractors have also claimed that it is irreconcilable with the teaching of Christ that his disciples must love their enemies. If Christ did indeed pay the price for the sins of humanity, they charge, God has never truly forgiven any sinner as he expects believers to do when wronged. In the Gospels, they argue, Jesus depicts the Father as simply forgiving individuals with no mention of a sacrifice. How, therefore, can one argue that he requires the substitutionary sacrifice of his son in sense order to accomplish redemption? Even to the casual observer these are clearly serious charges.

The question is whether such charges are accurate. Is penal substitution a relatively recent invention? Does it truly depict God as some sort of violent, pagan deity? Is it incompatible with the loving God of the Bible as revealed through Jesus Christ? While such charges certainly merit consideration, ultimately this article will make the case that they are mistaken. It will argue that the penal substitutionary understanding of the atonement has, in substance, been believed and taught since the infancy of the church, demonstrating that it has held considerable influence throughout Christian history, and represents a thoroughly biblical depiction of Christ’s work on the cross.


Geoffrey Butler, “Appeasement of a Monster God? A Historical and Biblical Analysis of Penal Substitutionary Atonement,”
 
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