PSA as central to the Gospel

[DavidTree]

You bit off more than you can chew

And now have choked to death on your own vomit ( false doctrine ) that has just been buried 6 feet under

The FATHER punished The SON on our behalf = GOSPEL = "By His stripes we are healed"

GOSPEL = "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins"

 

[Dizerner]

You don’t understand the blood and its purpose / function in the Pentateuch

Of course I do, and it's not for decoration, nor to make you feel better about yourself.

I had a Jew tell me on CARM that Leviticus and its sacrifices did not represent Jesus and his death.

Because there was a grain offering and and he also argued sins were forgiven without a sacrifice.

Of course someone following Judaism puts no authority in the NT, but Hebrews clearly tells us these things were symbolic.

There was only one sacrifice put on the Holy of Holies, and it was animal blood for a basis of covering of all sins.

The existence of other offerings, is tangential and inconsequential to the symbolism of the primary atonement.

And the concept of a life for a life, as the punishment for a murder, a reciprocal penal basis, illumines God's justice.

For the offerings dedicated to the atonement of sin had a direct transference of guilt before burning on the altar.

And it was the life in the blood given in a man's place that was said to atone for souls on a symbolic and promissory basis.

The Passover held the same principle, as God did not want pointless animal murders smeared on doors.

We must be careful to examine the claims closely of any new wind of doctrine, and purge out the leaven.

 

[Dizerner]

You bit off more than you can chew

And now have choked to death on your own vomit ( false doctrine ) that has just been buried 6 feet under

I can chew just fine, you are the Copy and Paste King who never writes out his own replies more than a few ungrammatical words.

And again, like so often, you hide behind a copy and paste instead of answer the question honestly like a man with integrity.

1. If Jesus ignores your sins, that is not just. It is an abomination for God to clear the guilty, Scripture declares. (Prov. 17:5)

2. If Jesus winks at your sins, he is enabling and encouraging sinful behavior by being passively permissive.

3. The only thing that marries justice with mercy, is the Cross of Jesus Christ actually paying for your insolence and rebellion.

 

[civic]

The FATHER punished The SON on our behalf = GOSPEL = "By His stripes we are healed"

GOSPEL = "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins"

Nope the Father never punished the Son

 

[civic]

I can chew just fine, you are the Copy and Paste King who never writes out his own replies more than a few ungrammatical words.

And again, like so often, you hide behind a copy and paste instead of answer the question honestly like a man with integrity.

1. If Jesus ignores your sins, that is not just. It is an abomination for God to clear the guilty, Scripture declares. (Prov. 17:5)

2. If Jesus winks at your sins, he is enabling and encouraging sinful behavior by being passively permissive.

3. The only thing that marries justice with mercy, is the Cross of Jesus Christ actually paying for your insolence and rebellion.

I have a thread my own study and words defeating your false doctrine on PSA.

It’s completely refuted here

Thread 'The Nature of God in the Atonement'

Jul 13, 2023

Link removed and posted below.

The above is to long to post here it would be 5/6 separate posts. I might break it up in sections below.

• civic
• Replies: 472
• Forum: Penal Substitutionary Atonement

• 

 

[DavidTree]

Nope the Father never punished the Son

YES HE DID

In specific wording in the OT
i KNOW where "It is written"
Your mission @civic , should you accept it, is to go find it in the OT

 

[Dizerner]

I don't understand why anyone would fight against Jesus paying the price of their sin.

The twisted and hardened and darkened heart to do that—it is hard for me to grasp.

 

[civic]

YES HE DID

In specific wording in the OT
i KNOW where "It is written"
Your mission @civic , should you accept it, is to go find it in the OT

Show me where Jesus, the Father or Apostles say the Father punished the Son in the NT.

You should accept Jesus and the Apostles teaching on Jesus death, burial and resurrection, the gospel.

Hope this helps !!!

 

[DavidTree]

Show me where Jesus, the Father or Apostles say the Father punished the Son in the NT.

You should accept Jesus and the Apostles teaching on Jesus death, burial and resurrection, the gospel.

Hope this helps !!!

There is direct language of the FATHER punishing His SON in the OT Prophets.

Find it and BELIEVE every word

 

[civic]

There is direct language of the FATHER punishing His SON in the OT Prophets.

Find it and BELIEVE every word

Nope only found in 1 passage but that’s been misunderstood. Making an entire doctrine from a single misunderstood passage is sinking sand not built upon a strong foundation. It’s eisegesis not exegesis.

I believe every word just not the heretical doctrines formed from a misused passage.

hope this helps !!!

 

[DavidTree]

Nope only found in 1 passage but that’s been misunderstood. Making an entire doctrine from a single misunderstood passage is sinking sand not built upon a strong foundation. It’s eisegesis not exegesis.

I believe every word just not the heretical doctrines formed from a misused passage.

hope this helps !!!

Well, at least i know what the scriptures Say and where Elohim Say's it and most importantly = WHY

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

Nope the Father never punished the Son

Sir, you are in serious error, I'm preparing and organizing my thoughts that I desire to speak to you, concerning this heresy that you have come to embraced. I now see why you abandon Calvinism, for your Christless suffering gospel, that his Father ordained for him ~ your gospel does not need him to be bruise by his Father as part of him to be a surety for his people. I'll wait after my doctor's appointment tomorrow to address this in depth.

1st Peter 2:24​

“Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.”

2nd Corinthians 5:21​

“For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

Isaiah 53:10​

“Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.”

Coming back maybe Friday with a post for you to answer. The Lord willing.

Show me where Jesus, the Father or Apostles say the Father punished the Son in the NT.

Be glad to do so.

Acts 8:35​

“Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.”

Isaiah 53 is the gospel revealed in the NT.

Later....

 

[Joe]

As pointed out in my many other threads, denying substitutionary atonement:

Our Lord was not merely a substitute but a sacrificial Lamb sent by God to take away our sins. He is a redeemer; one who purchases us from death and the grave by paying the price of our release with His sinless life unto death. He died because of/for our sins.

1. Denies God's holiness being upheld, as sin no longer has to be punished.

2. Denies God's place of ultimate worth, as his Blood is a sufficient payment for sin.

3. Denies God's place of supreme authority, as he alone is the Judge of all sin.


The way Christ saves us is by carrying out justice for our sins, not by ignoring them.

God's punishment for sin is death. The justice and mercy of God is shown that He sent His own Son to die as a Redeemer of mankind by offering His sinless life as a sacrifice and dying for our sins. God Himself judicially "has laid on him the iniquity of us all"; meaning, God judicially applied the guilt of our sins to His Son's sacrificial death, thus judging everyone's sin in the bodily sacrificial death of our sinless Lord.

You cannot find anywhere in the bible that Jesus was punished by God. You cannot. What you find is Jesus offering up Himself to die as the sacrifice for our sin; that in His death the guilt of our sins are judicially applied, thus effectively taking/carrying them away.

What you find is God's merciful grace fulfilling both His justice and mercy. Justice that a death for our sin has occurred, and mercy that He permitted a sinless person's sacrificial death for our sins to be the means to judicially render judgment for our sin, resulting in our justification to eternal life to be received simply by believing...This is what you find illustrated in the OT and fulfilled in the NT.

"Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant." (Heb 9:15)​

"For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life." (Rom 5:17-18)​

You stated, "The way Christ saves us is by carrying out justice for our sins, not by ignoring them." This is dogma speech and not accurate to the biblical record. Jesus Christ our Lord was the Lamb of God who took away our sins in His death, while it was His Father that carried out justice and mercy in the sacrificial death of His Son, as explained above.

God Bless

 

[civic]

Our Lord was not merely a substitute but a sacrificial Lamb sent by God to take away our sins. He is a redeemer; one who purchases us from death and the grave by paying the price of our release with His sinless life unto death. He died because of/for our sins.


God's punishment for sin is death. The justice and mercy of God is shown that He sent His own Son to die as a Redeemer of mankind by offering His sinless life as a sacrifice and dying for our sins. God Himself judicially "has laid on him the iniquity of us all"; meaning, God judicially applied the guilt of our sins to His Son's sacrificial death, thus judging everyone's sin in the bodily sacrificial death of our sinless Lord.

You cannot find anywhere in the bible that Jesus was punished by God. You cannot. What you find is Jesus offering up Himself to die as the sacrifice for our sin; that in His death the guilt of our sins are judicially applied, thus effectively taking/carrying them away.

What you find is God's merciful grace fulfilling both His justice and mercy. Justice that a death for our sin has occurred, and mercy that He permitted a sinless person's sacrificial death for our sins to be the means to judicially render judgment for our sin, resulting in our justification to eternal life to be received simply by believing...This is what you find illustrated in the OT and fulfilled in the NT.

"Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant." (Heb 9:15)​

"For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life." (Rom 5:17-18)​

You stated, "The way Christ saves us is by carrying out justice for our sins, not by ignoring them." This is dogma speech and not accurate to the biblical record. Jesus Christ our Lord was the Lamb of God who took away our sins in His death, while it was His Father that carried out justice and mercy in the sacrificial death of His Son, as explained above.

God Bless

Amen

 

[DavidTree]

Amen

@Joe says: "God's punishment for sin is death."

@civic says: Amen

simple

 

[civic]

@Joe says: "God's punishment for sin is death."

@civic says: Amen

simple

thats sinful mans punishment

 

[DavidTree]

thats sinful mans punishment

Then JESUS must of been a sinful man = for he suffered death!!!

OH WAIT - Jesus never committed sin!!!

That can only mean ONE THING = JESUS was punished unto death for the sins of the world!!!

 

[civic]

Then JESUS must of been a sinful man = for he suffered death!!!

OH WAIT - Jesus never committed sin!!!

That can only mean ONE THING = JESUS was punished unto death for the sins of the world!!!

He was punished by man, suffering caused by the hands of wicked men who murdered Him who was innocent.

Nice try equivocating

 

[DavidTree]

He was punished by man, suffering caused by the hands of wicked men who murdered Him who was innocent.

Nice try equivocating

Love you my Brother in Christ.

i have to go now - good night!

 

[Selah]

Our Savior Jesus Christ wasn’t punished; He gave Himself for the whole world!

1 Timothy 2:5-6 (KJV) 5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Galatians 2:20 (KJV) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.

s e l a h