My full defense of PSA

[Dizerner]

Thanks for the video, so I assume there is no consensus among scholars which Isaiah 53 version is the correct one, we only know the NT authors used the LXX.

Again, I hate to throw the monkey into the wrench, but it's not that simple, as much we want to simplify things:

About 60-65% of New Testament quotations align with the Septuagint (LXX), the Greek translation of the Old Testament that was widely used in the first century.​

Roughly 20-25% appear to follow the Masoretic Text (which would later form the basis of the Majority Text tradition).​

The remaining 10-20% don't precisely match either source - these could be:​

• Free translations or paraphrases by the NT authors
• Quotations from memory with unintentional variations
• Quotations from alternative textual traditions that have been lost
• Deliberate adaptations to fit the NT author's theological point

The prevalence of Septuagint quotations makes historical sense since:​

1. Greek was the common language throughout the Roman Empire
2. Many early Christians, especially Gentile converts, would have been more familiar with the Greek translation
3. The Septuagint was already considered authoritative by many Jewish communities in the Diaspora

This pattern also varies somewhat by NT author. For example, Matthew often appears closer to Hebrew readings than other Gospel writers, while Paul frequently quotes directly from the Septuagint.​

This is an AI summary and matches most estimates I have seen.

Now we cannot infer from this "Jesus and the Apostles thought the LXX was the one true Bible!", that's not a proper inference, because there are many other reasons to quote from the LXX (term used more broadly here, there were several Greek OT streams).

Regarding PSA, I have no problem what it teaches as long as the word wrath is left out.

I would suggest a deep dive study into the wrath of God in Scripture. An honest look would clear things right up.

There is something in us that wants to lessen the price of our sin—wants Jesus not to pay quite as much as we would have.

And the root of it is not the pity on Christ one might think, but rather the deep root of our pride.

Now everywhere, literally everywhere, in Scripture the results of sin are connected to the wrath of God—such that anyone just reading the Bible through honestly would, at the end, without even blinking or needing to think, connect sin and wrath, and see ever so clearly how our sin deserves this wrath. There really is simply no question at all about this. But when it comes to MY sin and how really EVIL what I did is, well, who wants to admit that deserves wrath in the end? Yet it clearly does.

So Jesus does indeed tread the wine press of the wrath of Almighty God, and he did indeed sweat drops of blood and drink the cup—that cup that was to be ours, the cup we deserved—penal.

 

[TomL]

So Jesus does indeed tread the wine press of the wrath of Almighty God, and he did indeed sweat drops of blood and drink the cup—that cup that was to be ours, the cup we deserved—penal.

Not stated anywhere in scripture and harmful to the doctrine of the trinity.

 

[Dizerner]

Not stated anywhere in scripture and harmful to the doctrine of the trinity.

Stubbornness and ignorance.

Humble yourself before God and admit your sins deserve his wrath.

 

[ProDeo]

Humble yourself before God and admit your sins deserve his wrath.

That sounds pretty convincing remembering my sins, your job to find Scripture that states it.

Ezech 18:20 The soul who sins shall die.

The wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23)

Just two of the many.

Where is God's wrath when we die?

Many unbelievers die peacefully.

But dying we all do, because we are sinners.

 

[civic]

Not stated anywhere in scripture and harmful to the doctrine of the trinity.

Yep

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I agree. These people are the same people that believe smoking a good cigar and drinking great bourbon will send you to hell.
Shalom

no

actually rejecting the cross will send you to hell

Luckily Jesus paid for all the sin, the sin of the whole world we are told

he who believes is not condemned 9 a statement of fact)

he who does not beli8eve is condemned already and better repent.

new birth is based on the cross. As moses lifted the serpent so to must the son
of man be lifted

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Amazing grace or amazing trade?
What you are presenting is a trade, a commercial transaction… which is powerful as metaphor but preposterous if taken literally.

Grace is a free lunch. Nobody paid for it because it was never for sale.
We are expected to eat the lunch.
This is what Jesus meant by eating his flesh and drinking his blood. We have to embed his life in our life so that we live as He lived.
Ancient people thought that we acquired the attributes of the animal (or person, in cannnibalism) that we were eating.

Well, Jesus offered his life (what he taught, what he exemplified) as a gift for us. If we feed from his teachings and example we will exhibit Christ attributes and have eternal life.
So powerful…! No penal substitutionary atonement. No trade. Just amazing grace.

Jesus paid for Grace, it is not free. and it is real

No one gets of scott free. God is a God of justice.. He demands a payment for sin. and he will enact his justice

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Penal Substitutionary Atonement is a Reformation invention that finds no support throughout the first millennium of the church. It has also been criticized as a distortion of Scripture, nowhere clearly taught in the Old or New Testaments. It has been blasted as a barbaric distortion of God’s character that places Him in the category of pagan gods such as Molech, depicting Him as a “monster God” It shows God as some sort of violent, pagan deity. Is it incompatible with the loving God of the Bible as revealed through Jesus Christ

behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world

so much for no one believing in atonment via the payment of blood of an innocent not being until the second millenium

 

[Dizerner]

Yep

He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Rev. 19:15 NKJ)

 

[atpollard]

He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Rev. 19:15 NKJ)

It says Jesus TREADS the winepress ... not Jesus was TREAD UPON IN THE WINEPRESS.

Ezekiel 18:20-32 [ESV]

20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. ​

​

21 "But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? 24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die. ​

​

25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? 26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die. 27 Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life. 28 Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? ​

​

30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live."​

​

God has the power to "forgive" our sin!

• [Mat 9:2, 5 ESV] 2 And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven." ... 5 For which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Rise and walk'?
• [Mar 2:5, 9 ESV] 5 And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven." ... 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Rise, take up your bed and walk'?
• [Luk 5:20, 23 ESV] 20 And when he saw their faith, he said, "Man, your sins are forgiven you." ... 23 Which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say, 'Rise and walk'?
• [Luk 7:47-48 ESV] 47 Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven--for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little." 48 And he said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
• [Jhn 20:23 ESV] 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld."
• [Rom 4:7 ESV] 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
• [1Jo 2:12 ESV] 12 I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven for his name's sake.

(No "pound of flesh" in transferred wrath is required.)

 

[Dizerner]

It says Jesus TREADS the winepress ... not Jesus was TREAD UPON IN THE WINEPRESS.

You don't like Jesus suffering the wrath you deserve, do you?

the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Is your wickedness upon yourself? Or do you want to somehow get out of that equation?

God has the power to "forgive" our sin!

God has the power to do anything. But he cannot forgive sin without punishment, and still maintain he is holy.

That is called permissive love.

(No "pound of flesh" in transferred wrath is required.)

It's rare to find a Calvinist leaning theology that doesn't accept the atonement of Christ.

If God is to maintain his declaration of his Law that fury and wrath are upon all the disobedient, he cannot set it aside.

Something has to be done to pay for your sins, to maintain how evil they are and how holy God is.

Otherwise you make the death of Christ an unnecessary, bizarre and completely cruel farce.

 

[civic]

You don't like Jesus suffering the wrath you deserve, do you?



Is your wickedness upon yourself? Or do you want to somehow get out of that equation?



God has the power to do anything. But he cannot forgive sin without punishment, and still maintain he is holy.

That is called permissive love.



It's rare to find a Calvinist leaning theology that doesn't accept the atonement of Christ.

If God is to maintain his declaration of his Law that fury and wrath are upon all the disobedient, he cannot set it aside.

Something has to be done to pay for your sins, to maintain how evil they are and how holy God is.

Otherwise you make the death of Christ an unnecessary, bizarre and completely cruel farce.

He accepts the atonement like everyone else just not the most recent theory known as PSA. Jesus was and is our substitute as in substitutional theory of the atonement which dates back to the NT, Apostles and early church

 

[Dizerner]

He accepts the atonement like everyone else just not the most recent theory known as PSA.

No.

I'm sorry.

You cannot redefine the word "atonement" and make it Jesus eating a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and still call it atonement.

That's terminology hijacking.

Just like Annihilationists say they still believe in "hell" and Calvinists say they still believe in "free will."

That's not a Biblical hell.

That's not a Biblical free will.

That's not a Biblical atonement.


Annihilationists reject hell.

Calvinists reject free will.

Anti-wrathers reject atonement.

Jesus was and is our substitute as in substitutional theory of the atonement which dates back to the NT, Apostles and early church

You've rejected the testimony of the early church that Jesus bore the Father's wrath in our place. You continue to spread lies about Augustine and the early fathers with no compunction and no guilt on your conscience.

You've rejected the New Testament witness that Jesus bore the penalty of our sin, which is wrath. You recreate an atonement in your own image and in your own likeness, one that pleases you instead of God.

No.

That's not atonement, that's some other means of forgiveness whereby Jesus does not pay for sin.

 

[civic]

No.

I'm sorry.

You cannot redefine the word "atonement" and make it Jesus eating a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and still call it atonement.

That's terminology hijacking.

Just like Annihilationists say they still believe in "hell" and Calvinists say they still believe in "free will."

That's not a Biblical hell.

That's not a Biblical free will.

That's not a Biblical atonement.


Annihilationists reject hell.

Calvinists reject free will.

Anti-wrathers reject atonement.



You've rejected the testimony of the early church that Jesus bore the Father's wrath in our place. You continue to spread lies about Augustine and the early fathers with no compunction and no guilt on your conscience.

You've rejected the New Testament witness that Jesus bore the penalty of our sin, which is wrath. You recreate an atonement in your own image and in your own likeness, one that pleases you instead of God.

No.

That's not atonement, that's some other means of forgiveness whereby Jesus does not pay for sin.

PSA hijacked the atonement so now you are projecting.

Wrath from Father to Son is made up and Jesus and the Apostles left that out in the NT in all the passages everywhere on the atonement.

You might as well convert to Calvinism and their other made up doctrine called tulip

 

[Dizerner]

PSA hijacked the atonement so now you are projecting

I projected nothing but Scripture.

I don't know why you fight God's Word and you will be accountable for it.

 

[civic]

I projected nothing but Scripture.

I don't know why you fight God's Word and you will be accountable for it.

There is No scripture in the NT about wrath from Father to Son in the atonement and there are 100’s of passages

At best you are 0/100. Whereas I’m batting 100/100,

Next fallacy

 

[Johann]

No.

I'm sorry.

You cannot redefine the word "atonement" and make it Jesus eating a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and still call it atonement.

That's terminology hijacking.

Just like Annihilationists say they still believe in "hell" and Calvinists say they still believe in "free will."

That's not a Biblical hell.

That's not a Biblical free will.

That's not a Biblical atonement.


Annihilationists reject hell.

Calvinists reject free will.

Anti-wrathers reject atonement.



You've rejected the testimony of the early church that Jesus bore the Father's wrath in our place. You continue to spread lies about Augustine and the early fathers with no compunction and no guilt on your conscience.

You've rejected the New Testament witness that Jesus bore the penalty of our sin, which is wrath. You recreate an atonement in your own image and in your own likeness, one that pleases you instead of God.

No.

That's not atonement, that's some other means of forgiveness whereby Jesus does not pay for sin.

I think this is the only point we agree on @Dizerner other than that you keep on resisting anything I post or say.

J.

 

[civic]

Change the title to my indefensible and unbiblical beliefs known as PSA.

The NT is silent for a good reason

 

[TomL]

Yep

It's really weird how the trinity is handled in that theology

 

[TomL]

Stubbornness and ignorance.

Humble yourself before God and admit your sins deserve his wrath.

Um it's your ignorance

Post a verse which states God the Father poured out the wine press of wrath upon Christ.