My full defense of PSA

[GodsGrace]

Hi Godsgrace

I believe that God's wrath is discipline, is inspired by love and therefore has a loving purpose.

I'm sure you know what wrath means:

Wrath:
1
: strong vengeful anger or indignation

I truly hope God feels no wrath toward mankind.

With all due respect, Pancho...I believe you are incorrectly using this word.

There is nothing in God's behavior, contrary to his essence of love. And certainly, not contrary to his justice.

In the Bible, the use of the word "wrath" is used as an analogy of the way kings or people in authority dealt with evil.
If a person was subject to the wrath of the king, that person would be arrested, tortured or executed. His possessions confiscated, etc.
That was a primitive way to understand God's wrath, and that's why the Bible abounds in this kind of language (we tend to forget that the Bible was primarily written for other culture and mindset)

However, in later times, Jesus presented God as a Father who takes care of all his children, good and bad... who gives always what is good to his children, and presented punishment as a sign of love. Please note the tone of the following passage in the Book of Revelation.
Look how "spitting you out of my mouth" which is a harsh metaphor of divine rejection, is not contrary to love, but the result of love, and has a loving pursose: repentance.

I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth....Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. (Rev 3:15-19)​

Agreed on the above.

 

[Johann]

I truly hope God feels no wrath toward mankind.

This is a contradiction on your end--

Luk_4:28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,

Luk_21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Jhn_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Act_19:28 And when they heard these sayings, they were full of wrath, and cried out, saying, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.

Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom_2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rom_2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Rom_4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom_5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom_9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom_12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Rom_13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Rom_13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Gal_5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Eph_2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph_4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

Eph_4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

Eph_5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Eph_6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Col_3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Col_3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

1Th_1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Th_2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

1Th_5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Ti_2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Heb_3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Heb_4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb_11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

Jas_1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

Jas_1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

Rev_6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev_6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev_11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev_12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rev_14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Rev_14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev_14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Rev_15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev_15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Rev_16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Rev_16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Rev_18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Rev_19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

AFTER the resurrection of Messiah things "changed" as the above Scripture will testify to.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I'm sure you know what wrath means:

Wrath:
1
: strong vengeful anger or indignation

I truly hope God feels no wrath toward mankind.

I share your hope, my sister.
I would be extremely (and unpleasantly) surprised to learn that Our Father feels a vengeful anger or indignation toward mankind.
So, I don't take literally the passages in which God is presented as vengeful. I take them as human language, to be interpreted from men's limited (and primitive) perspective.

When a city or kingdom committed continuous evil, and then was destroyed by another kingdom, or famine or plague, people said that it was God's revenge and punishment. But then, if a righteous man or woman suffered disease, it was not God's revenge, but God's test of faithfulness.

If you ask me, all awful things that happen to either bad or good people fit into the big picture of God's love and wisdom... a picture we are all too short-sighted to see or understand. One is presented as revenge (towards the evil men) and other as a test (towards righteous men).

 

[Grace ambassador]

God shows both His love and His wrath.

Amen. It has well been said:

"Too many Christians even, failing to understand Paul’s great message of Grace, think of God only as
a Being of Infinite Love, Who gave His Son to die for man, forgetting that it was His Infinite Justice that
Demanded So Terrible A Price for sin, and that the lake of fire is but the expression of God’s hatred of sin,
and His Righteous Indignation at man’s rejection of His Love and Grace."

More here:
Undiluted Wrath And Undiluted Grace! (CR Stam)

 

[GodsGrace]

I share your hope, my sister.
I would be extremely (and unpleasantly) surprised to learn that Our Father feels a vengeful anger or indignation toward mankind.
So, I don't take literally the passages in which God is presented as vengeful. I take them as human language, to be interpreted from men's limited (and primitive) perspective.

When a city or kingdom committed continuous evil, and then was destroyed by another kingdom, or famine or plague, people said that it was God's revenge and punishment. But then, if a righteous man or woman suffered disease, it was not God's revenge, but God's test of faithfulness.

If you ask me, all awful things that happen to either bad or good people fit into the big picture of God's love and wisdom... a picture we are all too short-sighted to see or understand. One is presented as revenge (towards the evil men) and other as a test (towards righteous men).

I agree with the above.
But what do you say about "all awful things that happen to either bad or good people fit into the big picture of God's love and wisdom"..... (your words).

Do you believe it is God that causes awful things to happen?
Or do you believe God allows them to happen?

I don't believe God CAUSES awful things to happen.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is a contradiction on your end--

Luk_4:28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,

Luk_21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Jhn_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Act_19:28 And when they heard these sayings, they were full of wrath, and cried out, saying, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.

Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom_2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rom_2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Rom_4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom_5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom_9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom_12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Rom_13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Rom_13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Gal_5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Eph_2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph_4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

Eph_4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

Eph_5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Eph_6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Col_3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Col_3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

1Th_1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Th_2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

1Th_5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Ti_2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Heb_3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Heb_4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb_11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

Jas_1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

Jas_1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

Rev_6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev_6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev_11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev_12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rev_14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Rev_14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev_14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Rev_15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev_15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Rev_16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Rev_16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Rev_18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Rev_19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

AFTER the resurrection of Messiah things "changed" as the above Scripture will testify to.

J.

Many of the above verses apply to man and not to God.
However, yes, there is scripture to show that God is wrathful toward mankind.
By scripture alone...I stand corrected.

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen. It has well been said:

"Too many Christians even, failing to understand Paul’s great message of Grace, think of God only as
a Being of Infinite Love, Who gave His Son to die for man, forgetting that it was His Infinite Justice that
Demanded So Terrible A Price for sin, and that the lake of fire is but the expression of God’s hatred of sin,
and His Righteous Indignation at man’s rejection of His Love and Grace."

More here:
Undiluted Wrath And Undiluted Grace! (CR Stam)

Thanks Grace ambassador.

I agree with your statement above.
I have a problem with the word WRATH,
but as @Johann has pointed out, there are many verses using this word....
and it does, indeed, mean wrath as in extreme anger.

The part that bothers me is that the word VENGEFUL is in the definition of the word wrath...
but I see this word used in other languages too, so I can't deny it.

Lord, let none of us here be under your wrath!
Amen.

 

[Dizerner]

This is why the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and we need to beware of modern Christianity that makes God your "buddy."

I have been under God's disciplinary wrath, and it is why I warn people on this forum, it is no joke or light matter.

 

[Dizerner]

30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people."
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Heb. 10:30-31 NKJ)

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I agree with the above.
But what do you say about "all awful things that happen to either bad or good people fit into the big picture of God's love and wisdom"..... (your words).

Do you believe it is God that causes awful things to happen?
Or do you believe God allows them to happen?

I don't believe God CAUSES awful things to happen.

I believe God allows awful* things to happen, because allowing awful things to happen is necessary for God to be God: I mean, loving and wise and just.

So, plate tectonics made thousands die in Myanmar just one month ago.... good and bad people died all the same. Did God cause that or allow that?
Well, God created plate tectonics and sustain plate tectonics. So, saying that God allowed the earthquake to happen, or saying that God caused the earthquake to happen, is just a philosophical way to play around primary or secondary causes in a chain of events. In the big picture, everything that happens, including Myanmar's earthquake, is factored in by God in his "equations", so to speak.
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7)

In regard to the topic we are addressing, I believe that God punishes men because that helps to fulfill his eternal and loving purpose towards men.

*I use the word "awful" because these things appear awful to us. But they are not morally wrong in the big picture of things, just as allowing our toddlers to fall when learning to walk is not immoral, but part of our loving behavior towards them.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people."
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Heb. 10:30-31 NKJ)

How do you interpret those verses, Dizerner?

 

[Johann]

30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people."
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Heb. 10:30-31 NKJ)

Heb 10:26 For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring the knowledge of the Truth, there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward].
Heb 10:27 [There is nothing left for us then] but a kind of awful and fearful prospect and expectation of divine judgment and the fury of burning wrath and indignation which will consume those who put themselves in opposition [to God]. [Isa_26:11]
Heb 10:28 Any person who has violated and [thus] rejected and set at naught the Law of Moses is put to death without pity or mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. [Deu_17:2-6]
Heb 10:29 How much worse (sterner and heavier) punishment do you suppose he will be judged to deserve who has spurned and [thus] trampled underfoot the Son of God, and who has considered the covenant blood by which he was consecrated common and unhallowed, thus profaning it and insulting and outraging the [Holy] Spirit [Who imparts] grace (the unmerited favor and blessing of God)? [Exo_24:8]
Heb 10:30 For we know Him Who said, Vengeance is Mine [retribution and the meting out of full justice rest with Me]; I will repay [I will exact the compensation], says the Lord. And again, The Lord will judge and determine and solve and settle the cause and the cases of His people. [Deu_32:35-36]
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful (formidable and terrible) thing to incur the divine penalties and be cast into the hands of the living God!
Heb 10:32 But be ever mindful of the days gone by in which, after you were first spiritually enlightened, you endured a great and painful struggle,
Heb 10:33 Sometimes being yourselves a gazingstock, publicly exposed to insults and abuse and distress, and sometimes claiming fellowship and making common cause with others who were so treated.
Heb 10:34 For you did sympathize and suffer along with those who were imprisoned, and you bore cheerfully the plundering of your belongings and the confiscation of your property, in the knowledge and consciousness that you yourselves had a better and lasting possession.
Heb 10:35 Do not, therefore, fling away your fearless confidence, for it carries a great and glorious compensation of reward.
Heb 10:36 For you have need of steadfast patience and endurance, so that you may perform and fully accomplish the will of God, and thus receive and carry away [and enjoy to the full] what is promised.
Heb 10:37 For still a little while (a very little while), and the Coming One will come and He will not delay.
Heb 10:38 But the just shall live by faith [My righteous servant shall live by his conviction respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, and holy fervor born of faith and conjoined with it]; and if he draws back and shrinks in fear, My soul has no delight or pleasure in him. [Hab_2:3-4]
Heb 10:39 But our way is not that of those who draw back to eternal misery (perdition) and are utterly destroyed, but we are of those who believe [who cleave to and trust in and rely on God through Jesus Christ, the Messiah] and by faith preserve the soul.
AMP

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

This is why the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and we need to beware of modern Christianity that makes God your "buddy."

I have been under God's disciplinary wrath, and it is why I warn people on this forum, it is no joke or light matter.

You have been under God's disciplinary wrath because He loves you and wants you to learn, grow and be at peace with Him.
Do you agree? Or do you think that God was just angry and did whatever his "divine hormones" drove Him to do, to satisfy his thirst of vengeance?
So yes, God's wrath is not a joke or light matter. It is a serious matter, because love (the source of His wrath) is a serious matter!

Love is more than just a hippie slogan. Love is the most serious thing in the universe.
A Theology based in love is serious, serious study. If the couple depicted below really lived according to love and peace, they would have my most profound admiration... and any question I could ever make to them to know their Theology would be mere curiosity.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

This is why the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and we need to beware of modern Christianity that makes God your "buddy."

Well, Jesus didn't use the figure of a "buddy" to explain God's love.
He used the figure of a "Father".

So, let's avoid strawmen here and go directly to the point: Why does a Father punish his children?

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, Jesus didn't use the figure of a "buddy" to explain God's love.
He used the figure of a "Father".

So, let's avoid strawmen here and go directly to the point: Why does a Father punish his children?

@Dizerner is not using a strawman argument.
Some Christians speak about Jesus as if He's their buddy, instead He is their God,
and should be honored as such.

This does not happen here where I live...so it may be a strictly American phenomena.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

This is a contradiction on your end--

Luk_4:28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,

Luk_21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Jhn_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Act_19:28 And when they heard these sayings, they were full of wrath, and cried out, saying, Great is Diana of the Ephesians.

Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom_2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rom_2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Rom_4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom_5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom_9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom_12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Rom_13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Rom_13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Gal_5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Eph_2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph_4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

Eph_4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

Eph_5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Eph_6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Col_3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Col_3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

1Th_1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Th_2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

1Th_5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Ti_2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Heb_3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Heb_4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb_11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

Jas_1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

Jas_1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

Rev_6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev_6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev_11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev_12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rev_14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Rev_14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev_14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Rev_15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev_15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Rev_16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Rev_16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Rev_18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Rev_19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

AFTER the resurrection of Messiah things "changed" as the above Scripture will testify to.

J.

• When we were kids, we were taught to avoid doing things that made our parents angry.
• When mankind was a "kid", mankind was taught to avoid doing things that made the king angry. "The wrath of a king is a messenger of death, but a wise man will pacify it (Proverbs 16:14)
• When Israel was a "kid", it was taught to avoid doing things that made God angry. "Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind". (Eccl 12:13)
• Good parents love their kids. Good kings love their people. God, who is All Good, loves all of us.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

@Dizerner is not using a strawman argument.
Some Christians speak about Jesus as if He's their buddy, instead He is their God,
and should be honored as such.

This does not happen here where I live...so it may be a strictly American phenomena.

Then I apologize to you, @Dizerner, for thinking you were using a strawmanm and I thank @GodsGrace for having pointed that out.

What I wanted to highlight is that in this thread at least, discussions about God's wrath have nothing to do with considering God loving us as our "buddy", but with loving us as our "Father".

 

[Dizerner]

Man constantly wants to make a God that pleases him.

This has always been a cardinal temptation.

 

[Affinity]

The double jeopardy is a Calvinist argument.

Outside of Calvinist presuppositions it holds no water, because they deny the existence of conditional payments.

Only in Christ is the payment made, not outside of Christ—it's not made universally apart from conditions or locations.

That is why getting into Christ, becoming one with Christ, is how we are saved.

Else you are born already saved and forgiven, and even most Calvinists deny that.

I thought this was the Calvinist argument.

Satisfaction to the offended holiness and justice of God through Christ’s bearing the full penalty of man’s sin in His vicarious death: Luther (1483-1546); Calvin (1509-1564); and early Reformation leaders, who adopted Anselm’s principle of strict judicial satisfaction. The entire guilt and punishment that sinners deserve was transferred to Christ, who by His obedience in life and sufferings endured their total penalty so that sin may no longer be imputed or penalty demanded from those for whom He died, or from those who had been elected to be saved from all eternity. “Our sins were transferred to Him by imputation.”
Albert Barnes

For me the sufferings of Christ were not a substituted penalty, but a substitute for a penalty.

 

[Dizerner]

I thought this was the Calvinist argument.

Calvinists believe in salvation by election instead of faith.

Oh they will say "faith as a means" but the salvific component is actually election instead.

Instead, we say the imputation comes by faith as Scripture tells us, we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand.