Affinity
Active Member
That works.
My full defense of PSA
- Thread starter Dizerner
- Start date
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
A priest from Moloch comes and asks a mother to offer his baby in sacrifice to Him.
She tells the priest that Moloch must be nuts and that she won't do it.
The priest then rebukes: "What happens is that you want to make a God that pleases you. This has always been a cardinal temptation... but Moloch is who He is and you shouldn't question his character".
*********
The Father who forgave the Prodigal Son was not trying to please his son when he welcomed his son back at home. Forgiveness was inherent to his love for the son.
The prodigal son was not asking his father to be pleased and admitted as a son again, and be offered a party. Enjoying being at home again has inherent to the process of repentance.
*********
Let me repeat what I have once said: I won't follow a god who is cruel and unjust. Not even if all sacred textbooks said it.
Why? Because then following Jesus' Father or Moloch would make no difference.
Either truth brings me peace and love, or it is not truth at all.
Dizerner
Active Member
I know, as I have mentioned previously this is called rebellion and pride.
God will throw all rebels into hell, and everyone who reads my posts has been adequately warned.
That does not logically follow. It is, in fact, the difference between heaven and hell for all eternity.
GodsGrace
Active Member
There's a difference between Anselm's Satisfaction Theory (12th Century) and The Penal Substitution Theory.
The Satisfaction Theory satisfies God because God was rejected and satisfaction for the grievous act is necessary.
The Penal Substitution Theory states that God's wrath must be satisfied.
The difference is the REASON....
Satisfaction for rejection of God...
Satisfaction for God's wrath.
The PST, as you know, came about at the reformation.
Affinity
Active Member
Well Jesus did call us friends.
John 15:15 states, “No longer do I call you servants, because a servant does not understand what his master is doing. But I have called you friends, because everything I have learned from My Father I have made known to you.”
Dizerner
Active Member
I hope you can discern the difference in how one views a friend as either an equal there to make you happy, or a King to fear and serve. I use the term "buddy" to convey the diminishing levels of respect for God's friendship we are often prone to fall in to.
God is infinite majesty who will not hesitate to throw our soul in hell if we reject his ways, and so I think it makes the friendship more special indeed but also not on grounds of equality and subservience, and we are tempted this way often.
Affinity
Active Member
Jesus makes me happy.
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
Romans 14:17
Romans 15:13
May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope.Romans 12:12
Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer.Philippians 4:4
Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice.James 1:2
Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds,Psalm 16:11
You make known to me the path of life; in your presence there is fullness of joy; at your right hand are pleasures forevermore.John 16:24
Until now you have asked nothing in my name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,Proverbs 17:22
A joyful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones.John 16:22
So also you have sorrow now, but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you.Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.John 15:11
These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.Psalm 118:24
This is the day that the Lord has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it.Psalm 30:5
For his anger is but for a moment, and his favor is for a lifetime. Weeping may tarry for the night, but joy comes with the morning.1 Peter 1:8
Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory,Nehemiah 8:10
Then he said to them, “Go your way. Eat the fat and drink sweet wine and send portions to anyone who has nothing ready, for this day is holy to our Lord. And do not be grieved, for the joy of the Lord is your strength.”1 Peter 1:8-9
Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.James 1:2-4
Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.Psalm 4:7
You have put more joy in my heart than they have when their grain and wine abound.Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.Romans 12:15
Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep.Proverbs 10:28
The hope of the righteous brings joy, but the expectation of the wicked will perish.Psalm 5:11
But let all who take refuge in you rejoice; let them ever sing for joy, and spread your protection over them, that those who love your name may exult in you.Psalm 71:23
My lips will shout for joy, when I sing praises to you; my soul also, which you have redeemed.Luke 15:10
Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”James 1:2-3
Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.Zephaniah 3:17
The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.Hebrews 12:2
Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.Psalm 94:19
When the cares of my heart are many, your consolations cheer my soul.Ecclesiastes 9:7
Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do.Psalm 16:9
Therefore my heart is glad, and my whole being rejoices; my flesh also dwells secure.1 Thessalonians 5:16
Rejoice always,1 Chronicles 16:27
Splendor and majesty are before him; strength and joy are in his place.Luke 15:7
Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.1 Thessalonians 5:16-18
Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.Psalm 32:11
Be glad in the Lord, and rejoice, O righteous, and shout for joy, all you upright in heart!Psalm 27:6
And now my head shall be lifted up above my enemies all around me, and I will offer in his tent sacrifices with shouts of joy; I will sing and make melody to the Lord.Proverbs 15:23
To make an apt answer is a joy to a man, and a word in season, how good it is!Isaiah 55:12
“For you shall go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and the hills before you shall break forth into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.Isaiah 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord; my soul shall exult in my God, for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation; he has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself like a priest with a beautiful headdress, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.Psalm 126:5
Those who sow in tears shall reap with shouts of joy!2 John 1:12
Though I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink. Instead I hope to come to you and talk face to face, so that our joy may be complete.Psalm 28:7
The Lord is my strength and my shield; in him my heart trusts, and I am helped; my heart exults, and with my song I give thanks to him.Psalm 119:111
Your testimonies are my heritage forever, for they are the joy of my heart.
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
Again, that is exactly what a Moloch's priest could have said: "All those who dare to question the morality of Moloch's will are rebels. Lo, He shall crush their pride in hell."
If you can't question the morality of the god you are being invited to worship, then you can be deceived into worshiping any demon, any time.
atpollard
Active Member
Good conversation.
If I may contribute a personal observation (an observation from MY personal experience, not an observation about either of you) …
The important part is being willing to accept the consequences of your beliefs.
When I was much younger, and faced with what philosophers call “The Problem of Evil”, I came to two possible logical conclusions:
1. God exists, but is evil.
2. God does not exist.
(I could explain the logical argument, but it is not relevant).
I found “God does not exist” to be the more reasonable probability, and embraced the consequences of that conclusion by actively living a life characterized by NIHILISM. (Setting enemies on fire, smuggling drugs, etc.)
It came to pass that one day I found myself facing an imminent confrontation where death was a significant statistical possibility. Like any reasonable person, I at least considered the possibility that I might be wrong about DEATH and that I might be confronted with the promised Judea-Christian Judgement by the Judea-Christian God. I concluded that in that statistically unlikely event, there would be no begging or pleading or arguments from me, because I clearly DESERVED to be in Hell. It was only reasonable that I should be in a place with other beings that viewed God as EVIL and also hated him for his indifference in the face of human suffering which God had the power to prevent and CHOSE to stand by and watch while doing NOTHING to stop.
The point is not whether I was right or wrong. The point is “I was HONEST”. I was prepared to make a choice and stand by that choice.
I often wonder, when I hear people claim “I could never worship a God like that”, if they discover that God is indeed “like that”, whether they are prepared to stand by that statement in eternity?
Salty
Active Member
Yes and Amen. Joy, Joy, Joy, over flowing whenever we put our trust in HIM.
Breathe / What A Friend I've Found - Hillsong Worship
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
Dear atpollard and @civic
The answer is no. I would not be prepared to withstand the tribunal of a cruel or absurd god.
The moral thing to do would be to rebel and die, just as it is the moral thing to rebel and die figthing tyranny.
To me, being right and being good must be the same thing and that’s why I am religious and not an atheist anymore.
If we don’t choose a theological system and a kind of lifestyle that asumes God is good in the big picture, WHY TO BE RELIGIOUS in the first place?
Some people seem to believe that we can discuss complex and deep biblical facts and ideas, but we CANNOT understand that God is good. For those friends, going back to their days at kindergarden to recover what they can recover should be a priority.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
God's wrath on people, not on God the Son.
Dizerner
Active Member
He stood in our place... what is it with people wanting to water down the cost of their soul? It's so perverse.
It's very humbling to admit the great cost that Christ paid, but watering it down does not please him.
I don't try to water down Jesus suffering, His atonement, His blood sacrifice at all.
Now that we are speaking on watering down let's first look at the so called watered down version of Isa 53 -- the Septuagint -- the NT authors used, the ESV versus the Septuagint.
Code:
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush | 10 The Lord also is pleased to purge him from his |
him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an | stroke. If ye can give an offering for sin, your |
offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he | soul shall see a long-lived seed: |
shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall | |
prosper in his hand. | |
Code:
Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see | 11 the Lord also is pleased to take away from the
and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous | travail of his soul, to shew him light, and to form
one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, | him with understanding; to justify the just one
and he shall bear their iniquities. | who serves many well; and he shall bear their sins.I am willing to accept the PSA-WRATH version but it should be the undeniable truth.
Where the NT authors wrong?
Nothing in the NT about God the Father pouring his wrath on God the Son.
Instead we read about reconciliation, forgiveness of sins by Christ blood.
Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch - on Isa 53
Acts 8:30 So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
Acts 8:31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
Acts 8:32 Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this: “Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter and like a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he opens not his mouth.
Acts 8:33 In his humiliation justice was denied him. Who can describe his generation? For his life is taken away from the earth.”
Quoting Isa 53:8, lets compare again :
Code:
Isa 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken | 8 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away:
away; and as for his generation, who considered | who shall declare his generation? for his life
that he was cut off out of the land of the living, | is taken away from the earth: because of the
stricken for the transgression of my people? | iniquities of my people he was led to death.
Code:
Isa 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken [ESV]
Isa 53:8 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away [LXX]
Acts 8:33 In his humiliation justice was denied him [LXX]Another major difference.
civic
Active Member
Yep
civic
Active Member
Its completely made up and nowhere to be found in the N.T. The thing is some of its adherents make it essential to ones salvation. Here are the N.T. quotes of Isaiah in the N.T. Notice wrath is missing and PSA doctrine gets it directly from Isaiah 53.
The wrath of God (Isaiah 53)
Within the study of the doctrine on PSA, the central O.T. passage it comes from is found in Isaiah 53. Let us look at how the N.T. quotes Isaiah 53 and see how the N.T. writers viewed the passages and used them in the N.T. and what language from Isaiah 53 they applied to Jesus in the N.T. regarding suffering.
In doing so, a few things stand out. There is no penal aspect/ language Isaiah used that is carried over in the N.T. but that of substitution. Isaiah 53:4- WE (not God) considered Him punished by God. The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25. Not one of them uses any penal language where PSA gets its doctrine from in Isaiah 53 in the New Testament.
1-Matthew 8:17 Carried our diseases (Isaiah 53:4)
2-Mark 15:28 Numbered with transgressors (Isaiah 53:12)
3-Luke 22:37 Numbered with transgressors (Isaiah 53:12)
4-John 12:38 Who has believed our report? (Isaiah 53:1)
5-Acts 8:32 A lamb to the slaughter (Isaiah 53:7)
6-Romans 10:16 Who has believed our report? (Isaiah 53:1)
7-1Peter 2:22 He committed no sin (Isaiah 53:9)
8-1Peter 2:24 By his stripes you were healed (Isaiah 53:5)
PSA is based off assumptions and empty claims that cannot be substantiated in the N.T as seen above.
More than excellent, thank you. This whole PSA-WRATH doctrine took me by surprise, never heard of it.
I still wonder how it is possible the LXX (in use by the NT authors and ECF's) fundamentally differs so much from the MT (9th century as I read) while the MT is much more in sync with the Dead Sea Scrolls, can you shed some light on that?
Dizerner
Active Member
The history of manuscript streams is pretty complex and it's worth researching in some depth.
There is no one "LXX," there are many different variations of Greek OT manuscripts, so be sure to check.
For example the LXX has a version that supports the MT in Isaiah 9:6 and one that is completely changed.
We must remember that fundamentally and definitionally the LXX is a TRANSLATION from one language to another.
Although admittedly the Greek we have changes some verses also in Isaiah 53 an important chapter, I could still fully validate substutionary atonement from the Greek text alone.
Check here for some starter information:
The history of manuscript streams is pretty complex and it's worth researching in some depth.
There is no one "LXX," there are many different variations of Greek OT manuscripts, so be sure to check.
For example the LXX has a version that supports the MT in Isaiah 9:6 and one that is completely changed.
We must remember that fundamentally and definitionally the LXX is a TRANSLATION from one language to another.
Although admittedly the Greek we have changes some verses also in Isaiah 53 an important chapter, I could still fully validate substutionary atonement from the Greek text alone.
Check here for some starter information:
Thanks for the video, so I assume there is no consensus among scholars which Isaiah 53 version is the correct one, we only know the NT authors used the LXX.
Regarding PSA, I have no problem what it teaches as long as the word wrath is left out.
Penal - Jesus was made sin, who knew no sin (2 Cor 5:21) and the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23), Jesus died a cruel death.
Substitutionary - in our place, of course.
Atonement - absolutely. John the Baptist was the first to know, long before the 12 understood.
John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Matt 3:16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;
Matt 3:17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”
