You are welcomeAmen to this. I doubt Truther is now a user on this site. But it's good to keep up the scripture against water baptism for salvationThank you
Mark 16:16~"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
- Thread starter Red Baker
- Start date
mailmandan
Active member
Amen! John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Yep, no water in those verses
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Mark 15:26 says nothing about Latin, Greek, Hebrew, or of Jesus being a Nazarene. But do you dispute that the charge against Jesus was written in these languages, or that it said Jesus was a Nazarene as John 19:19-20 says?
Then why do you make the argument that just because these verses don't mention water it is irrelevant to salvation? Let's be consistent in our interpretation and understanding of Scripture, shall we?
Because the verse contradicts your water baptism is necessary for salvation doctrine
Amen! John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
There is no contradiction. Just because those verses don't mention water does not mean that it is not necessary. Yes, John 3:18 only mentions belief, and John 3:36 makes it clear that belief is not just a mental process, but is an active obedience to God's commands: ie, faith. You are trying to selectively pluck out only those verses that only mention "belief" as the single condition for receiving salvation. But that would invalidate all the other passages of Scripture that mention other things that are necessary. As I have tried to get you to see, just because one verse doesn't mention something doesn't make that thing irrelevant. The charge against Jesus was written in three languages, but Mark and Matthew don't tell us that; only Luke and John mention it. That doesn't make Matthew and Mark wrong, nor does it mean that Luke and John are "adding to" the Word of God. But we can't take Matthew and Mark as the only passages we reference when talking about the charge against Jesus; we have to include ALL the passages that talk about it. The same goes for salvation. We must consider every passage that talks about salvation, and include in our doctrine of salvation every condition that any verse mentions.
Thus we have repentance being necessary, as Acts 3:19 tells us.
And we have confession of Jesus being necessary, as Rom 10:9-10 tells us.
And we have baptism being necessary, as Mark 16:16, and Acts 2:38, and Rom 6:1-7, and Col 2:11-14, and Gal 3:26-27, and 1 Pet 3:21 tell us.
These are the only three specific actions that Scripture says lead to or result in our receiving salvation. This makes them part of the faith through which we receive God's grace of salvation as Eph 2:8-9 tells us.
Sorry but the fact one who believes is not condemned indicates water baptism is not necessary to salvation
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
One passes out of condemnation upon faith
and faith is not a reference to water baptism
Luke 18:13-14 KJV - 3 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
This is all that is needed for salvation
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
This is all that is needed for salvation
Peterlag
Well-known member
Water baptism is a carryover from part of the Levitical Law. There are many examples of people in the Old Testament who would wash themselves with water as a final step to being clean. Water baptism was an outward sign of washing, and then you would be clean to God. Baptism in water, and the need to be circumcised passed away with the coming of Pentecost, as did the other Levitical Laws. To be led by the spirit is to not be under the yoke of bondage with the extreme of legalism, seeking the works of the flesh from the old covenant concerning the past Law administration that was written to Israel.
It's clear from the gospels that water baptism had to do with the kingdom, which was ministered by John who was known as the Baptizer, and not a minister for the Church of God. John who was a prophet functioning under the old covenant was appointed by God to prepare and confirm the promises made to Israel. His message was to tell those who lived under the old covenant that the king had come and “the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” He used water as a sign to baptize those who believed the promised Messiah would be coming in just a matter of months and to illustrate that he would be the Christ, who would baptize them not with material water, but with holy spirit, which is “power from on high.” From the habit of tradition, and only for a short period of time, a small handful of people were baptized with water into the New Testament, but never again afterwards.
In the epistles written just a little bit past the beginning of the New Testament is where we read the only time water baptism is mentioned is to note there is no more need for it, and that we are now to be baptized with holy spirit. And this is why in Acts 2:38, Peter commands “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ.” In Acts 8:16, Peter and John “baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.” In Acts 10:48, Peter “commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.” In Romans 6:3, it declares “that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ.” There is not one exception to this practice where we see water baptism, which belonged to the time period when Christ walked the earth, being used once the Church of God had become established.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
No, it does not. One who believes obeys. One who does not believe does not obey, and because he does not obey he remains condemned.
Faith is not just "believing", but is believing and taking action based upon that belief. We are not saved just because we believe, before we take action on that belief. Our actions complete our belief. We are justified by our actions along with our belief. Our actions are the soul, the core of our faith, and without that soul there is no real belief.
Faith is complete surrender to the authority of God. Since He commanded repentance in order to receive forgiveness (Acts 3:19), if we do not repent we do not have faith and we do not receive forgiveness. Since He commanded that we publicly and verbally confess Jesus as our Lord in order to be saved (Rom 10:9-10), if we do not publicly and verbally confess Jesus then we do not receive salvation. Since He commanded that we take the action of baptism (in water) in order to receive forgiveness and salvation (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21), if we are not baptized then we do not receive forgiveness and salvation. All of these are equally true and required if Scripture is truly God's completely inspired, completely correct, completely perfect Word.
Sorry but one's status goes from condemned to not condemned based upon one's faith
Sorry no matter how much you attempt to twist the meaning faith does not mean to be baptized with water
and it- faith, precedes water baptism . It is not made real by an application of water
mailmandan
Active member
Amen! Faith is not water baptism and faith 'precedes' water baptism and we are saved through faith. It's just that simple. Campbellites redefine faith to "include" water baptism and Roman Catholics make the same critical error.
I was once in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who made this erroneous statement to me below:
We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc.. (works)
Doug Brents made this similar statement:
Faith is not just "believing", but is believing and taking action based upon that belief. (works)
Roman Catholics basically teach that we are saved by faith "infused" with works and I hear people who attend the church of Christ say that we are saved by faith "conjoined" with works. Both groups redefine faith to "include" (works) and end up trying to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Work-salvationists will basically take faith and works together then wrap them both up in a package and simply stamp "faith" on the package. Prior to my conversion several years ago, been there, done that. After my conversion, once the blinders were finally removed, (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) I can see clearly now. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:21)
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Based upon one's faith, yes. And what is faith? Scripture says that faith is the substance of what is hoped for, and the evidence of what is not seen. Faith MUST be something that can be seen, touched, felt. The Hebrew writer agrees with James who says that faith without action is dead. Dead faith cannot save. We are not justified by faith only, but by the actions we take that are the life of our faith.
There is no twisting necessary. God says that we are saved in water baptism (1 Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14).
Faith is made real, alive, effective, by action. And the action of faith that brings salvation, according to what the Scriptures say, is water baptism.
Again there is no water in Rom 6 or Col 2
You are reading it into the passage
and once again faith does not mean be water baptized
Yep He redefines words to suit his theologyAmen! Faith is not water baptism and faith 'precedes' water baptism and we are saved through faith. It's just that simple. Campbellites redefine faith to "include" water baptism and Roman Catholics make the same critical error.
I was once in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who made this erroneous statement to me below:
We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc.. (works)
Doug Brents made this similar statement:
Faith is not just "believing", but is believing and taking action based upon that belief. (works)
Roman Catholics basically teach that we are saved by faith "infused" with works and I hear people who attend the church of Christ say that we are saved by faith "conjoined" with works. Both groups redefine faith to "include" (works) and end up trying to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Work-salvationists will basically take faith and works together then wrap them both up in a package and simply stamp "faith" on the package. Prior to my conversion several years ago, been there, done that. After my conversion, once the blinders were finally removed, (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) I can see clearly now. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:21)
dwight92070
Well-known member
A sign on the wall of a bakery said:
FREE
ADMISSION
TO THOSE
WHO
BELIEVE
OPEN TO ALL AGES
Sounds pretty Biblical to me.
FREE
ADMISSION
TO THOSE
WHO
BELIEVE
OPEN TO ALL AGES
Sounds pretty Biblical to me.
Yes It does.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Rom 6 and Col 2 don't need to say anything about water. There is only one baptism of significance in the NT Church according to Eph 4:5. And baptism is associated with salvation in multiple places (1 Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, etc.). So since there is only one baptism, and since baptism is linked to salvation, the baptism in Rom 6 and Col 2 that is linked to salvation (having sins removed, dying to sin, being united to Jesus' resurrection, etc.) must be water baptism. There is no reading into any passage. There is just letting Scripture comment on Scripture, and harmonizing Scripture with Scripture without letting any prejudice intrude.
You are correct that faith does not mean "water baptized". Faith means acting upon belief. If there is no action, then there is no real belief, just lip service. Without a real, living, active faith, there is no salvation. And the actions of faith that are required for salvation are the actions that God has declared lead to/result in receiving salvation: repentance (Acts 3:19), confession (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, 1 Pet 3:21).
You can argue against God's Word all you want, but it doesn't change what He wrote, or what He demands. It is not your will that must be satisfied; it is God's will. So I choose to trust Him, take Him at His word, and obey Him rather than you.
that would be the baptism en the spirit
Ephesians 4:4–6 (NASB 2020) — 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you also were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
no water heer either
only your eisegesis
mailmandan
Active member
Eisegesis indeed. There is only one baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is Spirit baptism, not water baptism.
Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.
1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. *Also see John 4:10,14; 7:37 for the word drink(s).
