Mark 16:16~"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

[dwight92070]

I was reading the story of Philip Mauro, a lawyer in New York City who came to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ on May 24,1903, when he was 45 years old. He describes his life before as one in which he had everything that he thought would bring him happiness. He was a successful lawyer, and moved among circles of other prominent and intelligent and successful businessmen. He valued a good reputation, the good opinion of men, success in business enterprises, engrossing his time and thought in nothing else. He had made money a god and bestowed his affections on it. He became a church member and even received communion at the age of 16 and had heard innumerable sermons, but was ignorant of God's one and only way of salvation. Nothing seemed to be lacking, however, that could insure happiness and contentment. But he experienced frequent and protracted spells of depression. Life had no meaning, advantage, purpose or justification. He was living in unspeakable darkness.

One night in New York City, he was seeking some kind of diversion from his depression, so he ended up in line to buy a ticket at a theater. While waiting there, he said an unseen hand turned him aside, and he had wandered far from the theater, when he heard among all the other sounds - faint singing. He was attracted to it and pushed himself into the building from which it was coming. It was a prayer meeting! Nothing about the meeting impressed him, except afterwards several persons greeted him with a pleasant word and a shake of the hand, and one inquired about his spiritual state. He found himself drawn back to that meeting place, even though, naturally speaking, it was dull, and the people there were, in his mind, in a lower social status. But God, in His wisdom, used those plain, humble folk, of little education, to teach him the way of everlasting life. He went many more times to this meeting. Finally on May 24, 1903, he yielded to the Spirit's influence, and he went forward and knelt with a few others at the front of the meeting room and confessed his sin and acknowledged that he needed God's grace. He said that he had never believed in sudden conversions, even though he had heard about them. But he said that his ignorance did not stand in the way of the mighty power of God, to quicken him to new life. He called on Jesus, with a deep conviction of sin in his heart - and that was enough. He knows that he was born again at that time, even though he did not know the nature of what was happening. He acknowledges that from that moment on, he was a new creation, again not knowing it at the time.
He began to read the Bible daily and pray daily and it wasn't long before he realized he was completely delivered from his spells of mental depresssion, which were getting worse.

Why do I present this testimony? Because it powerfully shows a proud, depressed man, humbling himself before God, and receiving forgiveness and even deliverance in a moment - instantly - by God's grace being born again.
I too was saved instantly, in a moment, on or around Sept. 20, 1970. My pastor tells me he also, was born again instantly, while listening to Christian singers. Another brother at our church, Tom, says the same. His new birth was instantaneous. My wife testifies that she doesn't know the exact day, but she knows that during an extremely hard time in her life, long before I met her, she was saved - born again.

Here we have four testimonies of persons being born again, instantly - none of them involved water baptism, but all of them were baptized. I'm sure there are many people on this forum who could give a similar testimony of being saved or born again instantly - and BEFORE being baptized.

Is God lying to us? I don't think so. We knew then and we know now when we were born again - and we also have the testimony of scripture itself, which continually and always presents water baptism taking place AFTER one is born again, NEVER BEFORE. The lies are coming from those who not only reject our understanding of our personal experience with God, but they also reject the scripture itself, which affirms our experience. They rely on their water baptism for their assurance of salvation, i.e. a work that THEY DID. We, on the other hand, rely on the FINISHED WORK OF THE CROSS OF JESUS and HIS RESURRECTION and His Spirit causing us to be born again - before we even thought about being baptized in water.

 

[Doug Brents]

that would be the baptism en the spirit

Ephesians 4:4–6 (NASB 2020) — 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you also were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

no water heer either

only your eisegesis

I just demonstrated through Scripture that the one baptism in Eph 4:4-6 is not just "en the Spirit", but is in water which is where the Spirit is encountered. But you don't want to hear the truth, you simply want to argue your preconception that is based on ignoring Scripture. Eisegesis indeed; you only want to accept the Scriptures that seem to agree with what you want to believe, and close your eyes and heart to anything that puts the lie to your preconception.

Baptism is associated with salvation in multiple places (1 Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, etc.). So since there is only one baptism, and since baptism is linked to salvation, the baptism in Rom 6 and Col 2 that is linked to salvation (having sins removed, dying to sin, being united to Jesus' resurrection, etc.) must be water baptism. There is no reading into any passage. There is just letting Scripture comment on Scripture, and harmonizing Scripture with Scripture without letting any prejudice intrude.

You are correct that faith does not mean "water baptized". Faith means acting upon belief. If there is no action, then there is no real belief, just lip service. Without a real, living, active faith, there is no salvation. And the actions of faith that are required for salvation are the actions that God has declared lead to/result in receiving salvation: repentance (Acts 3:19), confession (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, 1 Pet 3:21).

You can argue against God's Word all you want, but it doesn't change what He wrote, or what He demands. It is not your will that must be satisfied; it is God's will. So I choose to trust Him, take Him at His word, and obey Him rather than you.

Eisegesis indeed. There is only one baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is Spirit baptism, not water baptism.

Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. *Also see John 4:10,14; 7:37 for the word drink(s).

1 Pet 3:21 says that it is not JUST the one Spirit but also water baptism by which we are saved.
Yes, we drink of that Spirit when He comes to live in our heart. And He enters into our heart when we are clothed with Christ in water baptism. It is water baptism that was taught by Phillip to the Ethiopian Eunuch. It was water baptism that was commanded of the men on Pentecost to remove their sins. It was water baptism that was instructed of Saul in Damascus to remove his sins. It was water baptism that would save the people who believe the Gospel as Jesus instructed His Apostles just before he ascended back into Heaven. This is the ONE BAPTISM that exists in the NT Church.

 

[mailmandan]

I just demonstrated through Scripture that the one baptism in Eph 4:4-6 is not just "en the Spirit", but is in water which is where the Spirit is encountered. But you don't want to hear the truth, you simply want to argue your preconception that is based on ignoring Scripture. Eisegesis indeed; you only want to accept the Scriptures that seem to agree with what you want to believe, and close your eyes and heart to anything that puts the lie to your preconception.

Baptism is associated with salvation in multiple places (1 Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, etc.). So since there is only one baptism, and since baptism is linked to salvation, the baptism in Rom 6 and Col 2 that is linked to salvation (having sins removed, dying to sin, being united to Jesus' resurrection, etc.) must be water baptism. There is no reading into any passage. There is just letting Scripture comment on Scripture, and harmonizing Scripture with Scripture without letting any prejudice intrude.

You are correct that faith does not mean "water baptized". Faith means acting upon belief. If there is no action, then there is no real belief, just lip service. Without a real, living, active faith, there is no salvation. And the actions of faith that are required for salvation are the actions that God has declared lead to/result in receiving salvation: repentance (Acts 3:19), confession (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, 1 Pet 3:21).

You can argue against God's Word all you want, but it doesn't change what He wrote, or what He demands. It is not your will that must be satisfied; it is God's will. So I choose to trust Him, take Him at His word, and obey Him rather than you.

1 Pet 3:21 says that it is not JUST the one Spirit but also water baptism by which we are saved.
Yes, we drink of that Spirit when He comes to live in our heart. And He enters into our heart when we are clothed with Christ in water baptism. It is water baptism that was taught by Phillip to the Ethiopian Eunuch. It was water baptism that was commanded of the men on Pentecost to remove their sins. It was water baptism that was instructed of Saul in Damascus to remove his sins. It was water baptism that would save the people who believe the Gospel as Jesus instructed His Apostles just before he ascended back into Heaven. This is the ONE BAPTISM that exists in the NT Church.

The only thing you have demonstrated and continue to demonstrate is your EISEGESIS.

 

[dwight92070]

The only thing you have demonstrated and continue to demonstrate is your EISEGESIS.

And your rejection of the truth of the word of God, which is closely related to eisegesis, - and your deception.

 

[dwight92070]

Have you ever noticed that one sign of someone who is in a cult, or at least believes in false doctrine - is their desire to "evangelize" (almost exclusively) Christians?
True Christians, on the other hand, desire to evangelize the lost - which of course includes those in a cult - but unfortunately many cult members hearts are hardened even more than those who are simply lost.
This is true of many "devout" Calvinists, which puts them in that cult or cult-like group. They seem to have little concern for the lost, but boy do they go after Christians who reject Calvinism.

 

[Doug Brents]

The only thing you have demonstrated and continue to demonstrate is your EISEGESIS.

And you continually demonstrate your lack of trust in God and His direct commands. I do not use eisegesis in my study. You seem to think that there are some verses that are more important than other verses in Scripture. You think that just because John 3:16 only mentions belief as a requirement for salvation that it is more holy, or more important, or more complete than other verses that give more information. All Scripture must be taken as a whole, not parceled out as if some were greater and some were lesser.

I challenge you to do a study.
Go through the entire NT and pull out every single verse that talks about salvation, or remission of sin, or forgiveness of sin, or justification, or any other synonym for salvation you can think of.
Next, go through this list and pull out only those that talk about being saved from sin, not those that talk of saved from anything in this life.
Next, go through what remains and list out the things that are stated to be conditions for receiving God's salvation.
Be careful. Let the Word speak for itself. Don't you put your preconception into the mixture and force you into eisegesis yourself.

When you have finished doing this study for yourself, come back to me and tell me your results.

 

[Doug Brents]

Have you ever noticed that one sign of someone who is in a cult, or at least believes in false doctrine - is their desire to "evangelize" (almost exclusively) Christians?
True Christians, on the other hand, desire to evangelize the lost - which of course includes those in a cult - but unfortunately many cult members hearts are hardened even more than those who are simply lost.
This is true of many "devout" Calvinists, which puts them in that cult or cult-like group. They seem to have little concern for the lost, but boy do they go after Christians who reject Calvinism.

My full focus is on bringing the lost to Christ. That is why I fight the false doctrine of "faith only" so strenuously. Not all of the lost are out in the world. Many of them are in disguise, pretending to be part of the Church.

 

[360watt]

Eisegesis indeed. There is only one baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is Spirit baptism, not water baptism.

Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. *Also see John 4:10,14; 7:37 for the word drink(s).

The thing with this passage though, even though I agree with you on water baptism not being part of salvation, is this is addressed to a local church. The church AT Corinth.

1 co 12 is all about the local body

 

[dwight92070]

Doug, I accepted your challenge, looked up all the verses and here's what I found. First, salvation can be looked at in at least 3 ways:
1. Our initial salvation, i.e. the new birth, being born again
2. Our ongoing salvation, by continuing in faith - Col.1:23 "if indeed you continue in the faith"; Phil. 2:12 - "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"; 1 Peter 2:2 - "long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation";
3. Our ultimate salvation when Christ returns - Rom.13:11 "for now salvation is nearer to us than when we (first) believed"

Second, there are ONLY 2 requirements for INITIAL salvation - #1:

a. Listening to the message of the truth of the gospel and believing it, i.e. putting your faith in Jesus -there are a multitude of verses about this
b, Repentance from past sins - there are also a multitude of verses on this

There are only 3 verses that seem to say that water baptism brings forgiveness of your sins, or washes away your sins, or even saves you:
Acts 2:38
Acts 22:16
1 Peter 3:21
And 1 verse says that confessing Jesus with your mouth (leads to - Greek word is "eis" means "to" or "into") salvation
Romans 10:9

But if that is the correct interpretation of these 4 verses, then the apostle Paul is DEAD WRONG in saying, as he does emphatically in many verses, that FAITH ALONE brings INITIAL salvation. We know that Paul cannot be wrong, so the interpretation of these 4 verses cannot be what Doug is saying.

Probably 98% of our debate has to do with #1, our initial salvation. Here is the misunderstanding of James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." Those on my side have seen James as speaking of #2, our continuing faith after we've already been saved. Doug, on the other hand, says that James is referring to #1.

If Doug is correct, i.e. if James IS referring to #1, then we have a direct contradiction between Paul and James. Paul says we're not justified by works, but by faith (alone) Romans 4:1-8. James says we are justified by works AND not faith ALONE. James 2:24

Since the Bible does not contradict itself, Paul seems to be speaking of #1 and that FAITH ALONE will save us INITIALLY-see Romans 4:6-8 where David speaks of the blessing on those whose sins have been forgiven. That sounds like #1. Paul makes it clear that we cannot be saved by ANY work that we perform.
Whereas James seems to be speaking of #2, i.e. that as we continue in our walk with the Lord, there must be works that show that we have true faith.
Our initial work right AFTER salvation SHOULD BE baptism in water, but as we all know, that does not always happen - usually because our spiritual leaders are too careless with the word, or just plain disobedient to it, and don't stress the importance of obeying Jesus in being baptized.

Now your challenge. Show us in scripture where it definitively says (not your eisegesis) that the recipient(s) of INITIAL salvation - we're speaking of #1 here - did NOT get saved UNTIL they were baptized in water.
A 2nd challenge. How do you reconcile what Paul says about faith in Romans 4:1-8 with your understanding of James 2:24?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

How could man even think that he of himself can figure out or define what God's Word really means?

It's called "Theology". Theology is like noses - everybody's got one.

 

[TomL]

I just demonstrated through Scripture that the one baptism in Eph 4:4-6 is not just "en the Spirit", but is in water which is where the Spirit is encountered. But you don't want to hear the truth, you simply want to argue your preconception that is based on ignoring Scripture. Eisegesis indeed; you only want to accept the Scriptures that seem to agree with what you want to believe, and close your eyes and heart to anything that puts the lie to your preconception.

Baptism is associated with salvation in multiple places (1 Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, etc.). So since there is only one baptism, and since baptism is linked to salvation, the baptism in Rom 6 and Col 2 that is linked to salvation (having sins removed, dying to sin, being united to Jesus' resurrection, etc.) must be water baptism. There is no reading into any passage. There is just letting Scripture comment on Scripture, and harmonizing Scripture with Scripture without letting any prejudice intrude.

You are correct that faith does not mean "water baptized". Faith means acting upon belief. If there is no action, then there is no real belief, just lip service. Without a real, living, active faith, there is no salvation. And the actions of faith that are required for salvation are the actions that God has declared lead to/result in receiving salvation: repentance (Acts 3:19), confession (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, 1 Pet 3:21).

You can argue against God's Word all you want, but it doesn't change what He wrote, or what He demands. It is not your will that must be satisfied; it is God's will. So I choose to trust Him, take Him at His word, and obey Him rather than you.

1 Pet 3:21 says that it is not JUST the one Spirit but also water baptism by which we are saved.
Yes, we drink of that Spirit when He comes to live in our heart. And He enters into our heart when we are clothed with Christ in water baptism. It is water baptism that was taught by Phillip to the Ethiopian Eunuch. It was water baptism that was commanded of the men on Pentecost to remove their sins. It was water baptism that was instructed of Saul in Damascus to remove his sins. It was water baptism that would save the people who believe the Gospel as Jesus instructed His Apostles just before he ascended back into Heaven. This is the ONE BAPTISM that exists in the NT Church.

Sorry but no you have not

that would be the baptism en the spirit

Ephesians 4:4–6 (NASB 2020) — 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you also were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

there is no water in that verse

There is however the Spirit

1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[Doug Brents]

I accepted your challenge, looked up all the verses and here's what I found. First, salvation can be looked at in at least 3 ways:
1. Our initial salvation, i.e. the new birth, being born again
2. Our ongoing salvation, by continuing in faith - Col.1:23 "if indeed you continue in the faith"; Phil. 2:12 - "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"; 1 Peter 2:2 - "long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation";
3. Our ultimate salvation when Christ returns - Rom.13:11 "for now salvation is nearer to us than when we (first) believed"

This is true.

Second, there are ONLY 2 requirements for INITIAL salvation - #1:

a. Listening to the message of the truth of the gospel and believing it, i.e. putting your faith in Jesus -there are a multitude of verses about this
b, Repentance from past sins - there are also a multitude of verses on this

Let's stop right here for a second. You seem to have missed at least a couple of verses.
Rom 10:9-10 says that man must confess Christ as Lord and that this confession results in salvation. This salvation falls under category #1 above. This is initial salvation, not continuing salvation, and not ultimate salvation. This is clearly stated further down in verse 13 it calls confessing Christ "calling on the name of the Lord", and then asks how can one call on the name of the Lord if they have not believed, and how can they believe if they have not heard the Gospel. So then, calling on the name of the Lord (confessing Christ as Lord) is a requirement BEFORE initial salvation is received.
Acts 3:19 says that we must repent and return to the Lord so that we can be forgiven of sin (#1, initial salvation).
Acts 2:38 links both repentance and baptism as both being done in order to receive forgiveness.

There are only 3 verses that seem to say that water baptism brings forgiveness of your sins, or washes away your sins, or even saves you:
Acts 2:38
Acts 22:16
1 Peter 3:21
And 1 verse says that confessing Jesus with your mouth (leads to - Greek word is "eis" means "to" or "into") salvation
Romans 10:9

But if that is the correct interpretation of these 4 verses, then the apostle Paul is DEAD WRONG in saying, as he does emphatically in many verses, that FAITH ALONE brings INITIAL salvation. We know that Paul cannot be wrong, so the interpretation of these 4 verses cannot be what Doug is saying.

Sorry, you have failed the test here. You have defined faith improperly, and so discount the clear teaching of Scripture in favor of your preconception. Let Scripture define what faith is, instead of you placing your limitation on what Scripture teaches.
Paul is not wrong in saying that we receive initial salvation THROUGH faith (not BY faith as you said), and Paul NEVER says that we receive initial salvation through faith ALONE. He says that our works do not EARN salvation, but not that there is no action necessary to receive initial salvation.

Probably 98% of our debate has to do with #1, our initial salvation. Here is the misunderstanding of James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." Those on my side have seen James as speaking of #2, our continuing faith after we've already been saved. Doug, on the other hand, says that James is referring to #1.

If Doug is correct, i.e. if James IS referring to #1, then we have a direct contradiction between Paul and James. Paul says we're not justified by works, but by faith. Romans 4:1-8. James says we are justified by works AND not faith ALONE. James 2:24

Your problem here is that you continually put ALONE into the discussion, and Paul NEVER uses the phrase or even the idea of "faith alone" or "faith only". But James makes it clear that we do not receive initial salvation/justification through faith alone. Faith alone is dead, the Holy Spirit says through James, and a dead faith cannot save you.
James was chronologically the first book of the NT written. It was most likely expected that the readers of later books would have read James' letter, and so understood that faith alone cannot bring initial salvation.

Since the Bible does not contradict itself, Paul seems to be speaking of #1 and that FAITH ALONE will save us INITIALLY-see Romans 4:6-8 where David speaks of the blessing on those whose sins have been forgiven. That sounds like #1.

Yes, it does sound like #1, but it is not through faith alone, but through an active, obedient, humble faith that does what God says leads to receiving initial salvation.

Paul makes it clear that we cannot be saved by ANY work that we perform.

Again, you misread what Paul is saying. He is not saying that there is no action necessary. He is saying that there is no action that earns/deserves/merits initial salvation. If he believed that there was no action necessary, then he would not have said that confession of Jesus as Lord with the mouth (clearly a physical action) resulted in initial salvation.

Whereas James seems to be speaking of #2, i.e. that as we continue in our walk with the Lord, there must be works that show that we have true faith.
Our initial work right AFTER salvation SHOULD BE baptism in water, but as we all know, that does not always happen - usually because our spiritual leaders are too careless with the word, or just plain disobedient to it, and don't stress the importance of obeying Jesus in being baptized.

James is not speaking of #2. He makes that plain in James 2:14 where he asks rhetorically if a passive, inactive faith can save you. Then again in verse 24 he states that a person is justified (initially saved) through his works and not by faith alone. Later, in Paul's writings, the Holy Spirit stresses that it is not the actions that earn initial salvation/justification, but the faith behind the works. But that does not make the works any less necessary.

Now your challenge. Show us in scripture where it definitively says (not your eisigesis) that the recipient(s) of INITIAL salvation - we're speaking of #1 here - did NOT get saved UNTIL they were baptized in water.

Acts 22:19, Ananias told Saul to get up (why get up if the next instruction is only Spirit baptism) and be baptized (the clear indication is this is water baptism) and in so doing wash away his sins while calling on the name of the Lord. Clearly he was still in his sins because he wouldn't have anything to wash away if he had been forgiven on the road three days earlier. And this "calling on the name of the Lord" reflects directly back to Rom 10:14 where confessing Jesus as Lord is described as "calling on the name of the Lord". So Saul is told to confess the Lord in baptism and his sins would be washed away.
This is the same thing we see in Rom 6:1-7 and Col 2:11-14 where it is in baptism that the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us/we die to sin/we are united with Jesus' death and resurrection, which is directly linked to what Paul says in Gal 3:26-27 where he says that we are clothed with Christ and become part of the Body of Christ during baptism.

 

[TomL]

Eisegesis indeed. There is only one baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is Spirit baptism, not water baptism.

Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. *Also see John 4:10,14; 7:37 for the word drink(s).

Yes The verse speaks of the Spirit not water

And it is hard to imagine that one could hold water is a replacement for the Spirit

 

[dwight92070]

It's called "Theology". Theology is like noses - everybody's got one.

If man can't figure out what God's word say, then there would be no use reading it, and nobody could get saved - duhh.

 

[TomL]

James is not speaking of #2. He makes that plain in James 2:14 where he asks rhetorically if a passive, inactive faith can save you. Then again in verse 24 he states that a person is justified (initially saved) through his works and not by faith alone. Later, in Paul's writings, the Holy Spirit stresses that it is not the actions that earn initial salvation/justification, but the faith behind the works. But that does not make the works any less necessary.

And so you imagine works means water baptism?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

If man can't figure out what God's word say, then there would be no use reading it, and nobody could get saved - duhh.

CONVICTION OF SIN is a direct communication from God, and is what your FAITH (Heb 11:1) is based on - God's WORD to you (Rom 10:17).

 

[dwight92070]

This is true.

Let's stop right here for a second. You seem to have missed at least a couple of verses.
Rom 10:9-10 says that man must confess Christ as Lord and that this confession results in salvation. This salvation falls under category #1 above. This is initial salvation, not continuing salvation, and not ultimate salvation. This is clearly stated further down in verse 13 it calls confessing Christ "calling on the name of the Lord", and then asks how can one call on the name of the Lord if they have not believed, and how can they believe if they have not heard the Gospel. So then, calling on the name of the Lord (confessing Christ as Lord) is a requirement BEFORE initial salvation is received.
Acts 3:19 says that we must repent and return to the Lord so that we can be forgiven of sin (#1, initial salvation).
Acts 2:38 links both repentance and baptism as both being done in order to receive forgiveness.

Sorry, you have failed the test here. You have defined faith improperly, and so discount the clear teaching of Scripture in favor of your preconception. Let Scripture define what faith is, instead of you placing your limitation on what Scripture teaches.
Paul is not wrong in saying that we receive initial salvation THROUGH faith (not BY faith as you said), and Paul NEVER says that we receive initial salvation through faith ALONE. He says that our works do not EARN salvation, but not that there is no action necessary to receive initial salvation.

Your problem here is that you continually put ALONE into the discussion, and Paul NEVER uses the phrase or even the idea of "faith alone" or "faith only". But James makes it clear that we do not receive initial salvation/justification through faith alone. Faith alone is dead, the Holy Spirit says through James, and a dead faith cannot save you.
James was chronologically the first book of the NT written. It was most likely expected that the readers of later books would have read James' letter, and so understood that faith alone cannot bring initial salvation.

Yes, it does sound like #1, but it is not through faith alone, but through an active, obedient, humble faith that does what God says leads to receiving initial salvation.

Again, you misread what Paul is saying. He is not saying that there is no action necessary. He is saying that there is no action that earns/deserves/merits initial salvation. If he believed that there was no action necessary, then he would not have said that confession of Jesus as Lord with the mouth (clearly a physical action) resulted in initial salvation.

James is not speaking of #2. He makes that plain in James 2:14 where he asks rhetorically if a passive, inactive faith can save you. Then again in verse 24 he states that a person is justified (initially saved) through his works and not by faith alone. Later, in Paul's writings, the Holy Spirit stresses that it is not the actions that earn initial salvation/justification, but the faith behind the works. But that does not make the works any less necessary.

Acts 22:19, Ananias told Saul to get up (why get up if the next instruction is only Spirit baptism) and be baptized (the clear indication is this is water baptism) and in so doing wash away his sins while calling on the name of the Lord. Clearly he was still in his sins because he wouldn't have anything to wash away if he had been forgiven on the road three days earlier. And this "calling on the name of the Lord" reflects directly back to Rom 10:14 where confessing Jesus as Lord is described as "calling on the name of the Lord". So Saul is told to confess the Lord in baptism and his sins would be washed away.
This is the same thing we see in Rom 6:1-7 and Col 2:11-14 where it is in baptism that the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us/we die to sin/we are united with Jesus' death and resurrection, which is directly linked to what Paul says in Gal 3:26-27 where he says that we are clothed with Christ and become part of the Body of Christ during baptism.

You are a broken record of error, misinterpretaton of scripture, and deception.

 

[TomL]

Sorry, you have failed the test here. You have defined faith improperly, and so discount the clear teaching of Scripture in favor of your preconception. Let Scripture define what faith is, instead of you placing your limitation on what Scripture teaches.
Paul is not wrong in saying that we receive initial salvation THROUGH faith (not BY faith as you said), and Paul NEVER says that we receive initial salvation through faith ALONE. He says that our works do not EARN salvation, but not that there is no action necessary to receive initial salvation.

UM

Romans 4 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[mailmandan]

And you continually demonstrate your lack of trust in God and His direct commands.

Which of God's commands don't I trust? I understand the difference between trusting in a command in order to become saved and trusting in a command after I have been saved. (Acts 10:43-48) Yet apparently, you don't, and you don't even trust the most vital command to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 15:1-4; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4) and there is a reason for that. Now there is a difference between doing God's will in order to become saved (John 6:40) and doing God's will after we have been saved. (1 Thessalonians 5:14-18)

I do not use eisegesis in my study.

Your 'works based' false gospel demonstrates otherwise.

You seem to think that there are some verses that are more important than other verses in Scripture. You think that just because John 3:16 only mentions belief as a requirement for salvation that it is more holy, or more important, or more complete than other verses that give more information. All Scripture must be taken as a whole, not parceled out as if some were greater and some were lesser.

All Scripture must be taken as a whole AND properly harmonized with other Scripture before we reach our conclusion on doctrine. It's about proper hermeneutics and not greater or lesser. More information does not negate the fact that John 3:16 along with numerous other verses make it clear that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

I challenge you to do a study.
Go through the entire NT and pull out every single verse that talks about salvation, or remission of sin, or forgiveness of sin, or justification, or any other synonym for salvation you can think of.
Next, go through this list and pull out only those that talk about being saved from sin, not those that talk of saved from anything in this life.
Next, go through what remains and list out the things that are stated to be conditions for receiving God's salvation.
Be careful. Let the Word speak for itself. Don't you put your preconception into the mixture and force you into eisegesis yourself.

When you have finished doing this study for yourself, come back to me and tell me your results.

I have already done such a study many years ago and (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9 just to name some) sums it up for me. You seem to remain under the delusion that you are the Bible answer man and the rest of us desperately need your help in understanding the truth of God's word. I at one time had temporarily attended the so-called church of Christ so I understand how they try to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation by grace through faith, not works. I also understand their cultic obsession with water baptism.

 

[Doug Brents]

Sorry but no you have not

that would be the baptism en the spirit

Ephesians 4:4–6 (NASB 2020) — 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you also were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

there is no water in that verse

There is however the Spirit

1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The Spirit is the functional and active component in water baptism that removes our sin and unites us with Jesus' death and resurrection. So yes, it is by the Spirit that we are made part of the Body of Christ. But it is in water baptism that He acts, as we are told in Rom 6, Col 2, and 1 Pet 3. Your pet "baptism en the Spirit" is nothing more than the Spirit taking action during water baptism, as we are told in Scripture that He does, during water baptism.