Mark 16:16~"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

[Doug Brents]

And what of your quotes from James?

He does not mention water while mentioning works

Correct, he does not. He is not, in that place, establishing what works it is by which we are justified. He is simply making the point that faith is not passive. Faith requires action to be alive, effective, and bring salvation. Without action, faith is dead, useless, meaningless, and ineffective.

 

[TomL]

Correct, he does not. He is not, in that place, establishing what works it is by which we are justified. He is simply making the point that faith is not passive. Faith requires action to be alive, effective, and bring salvation. Without action, faith is dead, useless, meaningless, and ineffective.

Um that is not how I recall you employing James

 

[TomL]

There does not need to me mention of water in Eph 4:5. He is not making the point of WHICH baptism it is that is the ONE baptism in the NT Church. That point is made elsewhere, like 1 Pet 3:21, and Acts 8:36.

Again spirit not water appears in Eph 4


Ephesians 4:4–5 (KJV 1900) — 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Yes, it does. John came baptizing (not drowning, but briefly immersing and then raising back out of the water). The "washing" for ceremonial purposes done by the Jews was not a permanent submersion of their hands, or bowls, or cups, or bed mats, but was simply a dipping for a short time to make them ceremonially clean according to the Law of Moses.

Prove john submerged momentarily and quickly emerged.

That claim is not supported in the bible

BTW Washing

note Campbells translation here


Mark 7:3 (for the Pharisees, and indeed all the Jews who observed the tradition of the elders, eat not until they have washed their hands by pouring a little water upon them: lo A Campbell

are men immersed in the spirit or is the Spirit poured out on men


A baptism into Christ a momentary submersion followed by a quick withdrawal?

BTW How the Jews wash

Mark 7:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.


The word here is nipto

Campbell renders the verse

Mark 7:3 (for the Pharisees, and indeed all the Jews who observed the tradition of the elders, eat not until they have washed their hands by pouring a little water upon them: lo A Campbell

 

[Doug Brents]

Um that is not how I recall you employing James

James defines faith as requiring action to be alive. He states that we are justified by/through our works, and not just by faith. He asks if someone says they have faith, but don't follow it up with works, can that kind of faith save them?

That is all that I have ever said that James says. Faith requires actions to be alive and real. However, the actions of faith that brings salvation must be the actions that Scripture (elsewhere) says lead to/result in salvation being received.

 

[Doug Brents]

Again spirit not water appears in Eph 4


Ephesians 4:4–5 (KJV 1900) — 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Yes, the Spirit is the active participant that does the saving. He is the one who cuts our sin from us (Col 2:11-12) during baptism. He is the one who causes us to die to sin and be united to Jesus' resurrection (Rom 6:1-7) in baptism. He is the one who gives us a new conscience (1 Pet 3:21) in baptism. But it is in water baptism that He does these things. It is in water baptism that "baptism en the Spirit" takes place.

Prove john submerged momentarily and quickly emerged.

Jesus was baptized by John in Jordan, yet Jesus did not die by John's hand. He came up out of the water, after being baptized, and lived three and a half more years.

are men immersed in the spirit or is the Spirit poured out on men

Both. In English, there are a couple of different meanings of immerse. You can be immersed in a liquid, but you can also be immersed in a language, or idea, or culture. We are immersed in the Spirit in that He overwhelms our life. But He is also poured out upon us in power, understanding, insight, love, and the other Spiritual gifts.

A baptism into Christ a momentary submersion followed by a quick withdrawal?

In the water, yes. But the Spirit remains in our heart continually cleansing us from all sin as long as we remain in the Light (1 John 1:7).

 

[360watt]

We don't keep ourselves saved.. that is impossible! The Holy Spirit indwelling the believer does!
'Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling' -- the context is not about eternal salvation.

 

[TomL]

Yes, the Spirit is the active participant that does the saving. He is the one who cuts our sin from us (Col 2:11-12) during baptism. He is the one who causes us to die to sin and be united to Jesus' resurrection (Rom 6:1-7) in baptism. He is the one who gives us a new conscience (1 Pet 3:21) in baptism. But it is in water baptism that He does these things. It is in water baptism that "baptism en the Spirit" takes place.

Um men were baptized en the Spirit without water. It does not necessitate water

Jesus was baptized by John in Jordan, yet Jesus did not die by John's hand. He came up out of the water, after being baptized, and lived three and a half more years.

First nothing states he was immersed but those immersed fully without time limit drown. The word of itself does not provide for a withdrawal

Second Nothing there states how he was baptized

Next Coming up out of the water happens after the baptism

There is no evidence here to prove your view

Both. In English, there are a couple of different meanings of immerse. You can be immersed in a liquid, but you can also be immersed in a language, or idea, or culture. We are immersed in the Spirit in that He overwhelms our life. But He is also poured out upon us in power, understanding, insight, love, and the other Spiritual gifts.

In the water, yes. But the Spirit remains in our heart continually cleansing us from all sin as long as we remain in the Light (1 John 1:7).

un baptism into Christ is not a baptism into water

That is a plain category error

There is no immersion into, followed by an emersion out of Christ

 

[Doug Brents]

Um men were baptized en the Spirit without water. It does not necessitate water

Then why does Scripture say that water baptism now saves us (1 Pet 3:21)? Why did Jesus say that we cannot enter the Kingdom of God except through being reborn of water and the Spirit (John 3:5)? Why did Jesus command that only those who believe and are baptized will be saved (Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16)?

First nothing states he was immersed but those immersed fully without time limit drown. The word of itself does not provide for a withdrawal

Second Nothing there states how he was baptized

Next Coming up out of the water happens after the baptism

There is no evidence here to prove your view

The word "baptized" denotes complete immersion. That is what the word means. It can imply "sunk" as in a ship that goes down but never comes back up. But it can also imply the temporary dipping of a hand, a dish, or a body completely into water and then withdrawn out of the water. This is the ceremonial cleansing done according to the Law of Moses.

un baptism into Christ is not a baptism into water

That is a plain category error

There is no immersion into, followed by an emersion out of Christ

What did Phillip do with the Eunuch? They went down into the water, Phillip baptized (completely submerged the Eunuch), and then they came back up out of the water. We do not emerge back out of Christ; He remains in our heart. But we do emerge out of the water into which we were buried, just as Christ emerged out of the tomb in which He was buried.

 

[TomL]

Then why does Scripture say that water baptism now saves us (1 Pet 3:21)? Why did Jesus say that we cannot enter the Kingdom of God except through being reborn of water and the Spirit (John 3:5)? Why did Jesus command that only those who believe and are baptized will be saved (Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16)?

Water baptism is a symbol of the real baptism of the spirit

The word "baptized" denotes complete immersion. That is what the word means. It can imply "sunk" as in a ship that goes down but never comes back up. But it can also imply the temporary dipping of a hand, a dish, or a body completely into water and then withdrawn out of the water. This is the ceremonial cleansing done according to the Law of Moses.

Sorry, you failed to prove that from scripture

Neither baptizo or immersion imply a removal

Baptizo can is translated by wash where it appears the modal action was a pouring

Campball's translation

Mar 7:3 (for the Pharisees, and indeed all the Jews who observed the tradition of the elders, eat not until they have washed their hands by pouring a little water upon them:

Men are baptized with the Spirit. The modal action here is that of a pouring

What did Phillip do with the Eunuch? They went down into the water, Phillip baptized (completely submerged the Eunuch), and then they came back up out of the water. We do not emerge back out of Christ; He remains in our heart. But we do emerge out of the water into which we were buried, just as Christ emerged out of the tomb in which He was buried.

Sorry you add to the verse. The verse says nothing at all about a complete submersion

The facts are

1 they went into the water

2 The Eunuch was baptised

3 they came out of the water

Nothing at all states how they were baptized

As noted we are baptized into Christ, into his death but there is no removal

Your arguments fail

 

[Doug Brents]

Water baptism is a symbol of the real baptism of the spirit






Sorry, you failed to prove that from scripture

Neither baptizo or immersion imply a removal

Baptizo can is translated by wash where it appears the modal action was a pouring

Pouring does not satisfy the meaning of "baptizo" which is "to immerse". Pouring is not immersion. Pouring does not accomplish sinking, dipping, submerging, etc. No, the word does not imply a removal. But that does not mean that it does not happen. When a plate/bowl/cup/hand is dipped (baptizo) under water for ceremonial cleansing, it must then be taken back out of the water to be used to eat/drink/use. When a person is submerged into water for ceremonial cleansing (baptism), unless you intend to kill the person you must bring them up out of the water.

Campball's translation

Mar 7:3 (for the Pharisees, and indeed all the Jews who observed the tradition of the elders, eat not until they have washed their hands by pouring a little water upon them:

Men are baptized with the Spirit. The modal action here is that of a pouring

It does not matter what some man wrote about what he thinks about what Scripture says. The Scriptures says they immersed their hands for ceremonial cleansing, not that they poured a little water over them. The only mode of immersion is to immerse, not to pour, not to sprinkle. This is exactly the reason we have the word "baptize" in English at all. The original English translators of the Scriptures practiced sprinkling and pouring, but the word baptizo means "to immerse" so they had to transliterate the word and define the new word how they wanted in order to cover their false practice.

Sorry you add to the verse. The verse says nothing at all about a complete submersion

The facts are

1 they went into the water

2 The Eunuch was baptised

3 they came out of the water

Nothing at all states how they were baptized

The word "baptized" means "immersed". It does not matter how he was immersed (did he squat down, was he pushed over backwards, did he lean forward, it doesn't matter), what matters is that he was immersed completely in the water (as Jesus was immersed completely in the tomb), and then as Jesus was resurrected and left the tomb, he was raised back out of the water in new life.

As noted we are baptized into Christ, into his death but there is no removal

We are removed from death. We are removed from the tomb. We are removed from the world. There is a lot of "removal".

 

[TomL]

Pouring does not satisfy the meaning of "baptizo" which is "to immerse". Pouring is not immersion. Pouring does not accomplish sinking, dipping, submerging, etc. No, the word does not imply a removal. But that does not mean that it does not happen. When a plate/bowl/cup/hand is dipped (baptizo) under water for ceremonial cleansing, it must then be taken back out of the water to be used to eat/drink/use. When a person is submerged into water for ceremonial cleansing (baptism), unless you intend to kill the person you must bring them up out of the water.

Sorry you fail to prove that

I quoted Campbells (COC) translation of Mark 7:3

I quoted the baptism en the Spirit

You addressed neither

and now you admit immersion does not imply a removal

You have done nothing at all to prove submersion




b

It does not matter what some man wrote about what he thinks about what Scripture says. The Scriptures says they immersed their hands for ceremonial cleansing, not that they poured a little water over them.

Sorry no it does not

Your assumptions are not scripture

The only mode of immersion is to immerse, not to pour, not to sprinkle. This is exactly the reason we have the word "baptize" in English at all. The original English translators of the Scriptures practiced sprinkling and pouring, but the word baptizo means "to immerse" so they had to transliterate the word and define the new word how they wanted in order to cover their false practice.

sorry but you fail to prove your point

Wash, cleanse, purify, embue are all acceptable meanings of baptizo

All you are doing is posting your opinion with any scripture to back it up

 

[dwight92070]

She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He Himself will save His people from their sins. Matthew 1:21

Jesus Himself saves us from our sins, not baptism, confession, or any other work. His name means "God saves".

In Christianity, the message is the founder Himself, that is His words and His works, and who He is. Not true of any other religion.

 

[dwight92070]

Titus 3:5 " ... He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness (like verbal confession or water baptism), but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit ... "

Actual water is not mentioned here. The only time our sins are washed away is at our regeneration by the blood of Jesus - i.e. our new birth, our being born again. Just as we are not literally washed in Jesus' blood, so we are not literally washed in water, when we are born again. To say that this new birth occurs at our water baptism is a lie and not Biblical. Jesus Himself saves us. He doesn't need any assistance from us, to be saved. We don't have to go through a ritual or a ceremony to be saved, whether they are righteous ceremonies or rituals or not.

We know that Paul (Saul) was already saved when Ananias came to him three days after Jesus stopped him on the road to Damascus, because Ananias called him "Brother Saul". The term "brother", when used by a Christian, designates another believer. Jesus said whoever does the will of His Father was His brother, His sister, and His mother.

So what did Ananias mean when he said, "Get up, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name?" We know his past sins were already washed away three days earlier. We also know that baptism does not wash away sins, but calling on His name does do that. So Ananias was apparently concerned that Paul had sinned during those three days since his new birth. After Paul was baptized, Ananias wanted him to start his new life with a clean slate, so he advised Paul to seek forgiveness of any sins committed during those three days, which I'm sure Paul complied with.

 

[TomL]

Sorry you fail to prove that

I quoted Campbells (COC) translation of Mark 7:3

I quoted the baptism en the Spirit

You addressed neither

and now you admit immersion does not imply a removal

You have done nothing at all to prove submersion




b

Sorry no it does not

Your assumptions are not scripture




sorry but you fail to prove your point

Wash, cleanse, purify, embue are all acceptable meanings of baptizo

All you are doing is posting your opinion with any scripture to back it up

Should be

All you are doing is posting your opinion without any scripture to back it up

 

[Doug Brents]

Sorry you fail to prove that

I quoted Campbells (COC) translation of Mark 7:3

I quoted the baptism en the Spirit

You addressed neither

and now you admit immersion does not imply a removal

You have done nothing at all to prove submersion

Campbell was a man. I don't take ANY man's word over Scripture. I have shown you where the meaning of the word used in Scripture is "immersion", not sprinkling or pouring. But you don't want to believe the truth, because the your preconception does not agree with the truth.

Sorry no it does not

Your assumptions are not scripture




sorry but you fail to prove your point

Wash, cleanse, purify, embue are all acceptable meanings of baptizo

All you are doing is posting your opinion with any scripture to back it up

In Heb 9:19, the word for "sprinkled" is "erantisen" in Greek, so we can exclude sprinkling from the possible definitions of "baptizo". In Acts 2:17, the word for "poured" is "ekcheō", so we can exclude pouring from the possible definitions of "baptizo". The meaning of "baptizo" is to immerse. That is why John was at Jordan "baptizing", because that is where there was much water. That is why Phillip and the Eunuch went down into the water. Any of the Eunuch's servants, or Phillip himself, could have gone and gotten the water to pour or sprinkle over the Eunuch without the Eunuch going into the water himself, if that had been the mode followed by the Church in the first century. But that is not what Scripture tells us happened. Both of them went into the water, where the Eunuch was baptized (immersed), and then they both came up out of the water.

This is also consistent with the explanation given in Rom 6:1-7 where we are told that we are buried with Christ in baptism to arise to new life. When you bury someone, do you simply sprinkle a little dirt over them? Or pour just a shovel full of dirt over the casket? No, it requires complete immersion in the ground, either in a hole filled in with dirt like we do today, or in a cave that can be sealed as they did with Jesus.

 

[TomL]

Campbell was a man. I don't take ANY man's word over Scripture. I have shown you where the meaning of the word used in Scripture is "immersion", not sprinkling or pouring. But you don't want to believe the truth, because the your preconception does not agree with the truth.

In Heb 9:19, the word for "sprinkled" is "erantisen" in Greek, so we can exclude sprinkling from the possible definitions of "baptizo". In Acts 2:17, the word for "poured" is "ekcheō", so we can exclude pouring from the possible definitions of "baptizo". The meaning of "baptizo" is to immerse. That is why John was at Jordan "baptizing", because that is where there was much water. That is why Phillip and the Eunuch went down into the water. Any of the Eunuch's servants, or Phillip himself, could have gone and gotten the water to pour or sprinkle over the Eunuch without the Eunuch going into the water himself, if that had been the mode followed by the Church in the first century. But that is not what Scripture tells us happened. Both of them went into the water, where the Eunuch was baptized (immersed), and then they both came up out of the water.

This is also consistent with the explanation given in Rom 6:1-7 where we are told that we are buried with Christ in baptism to arise to new life. When you bury someone, do you simply sprinkle a little dirt over them? Or pour just a shovel full of dirt over the casket? No, it requires complete immersion in the ground, either in a hole filled in with dirt like we do today, or in a cave that can be sealed as they did with Jesus.

Sorry you fail to prove that

I quoted Campbells (COC) translation of Mark 7:3

Scripture does not translate baptizo

I quoted the baptism en the Spirit

You addressed neither

and now you admit immersion does not imply a removal

You have done nothing at all to prove submersion

and you cannot prove your practice from scripture

PS there is no water in Rom 6

Nor was Christ buried under the earth

 

[Bob Carabbio]

As unbelieving man is led in all truth?

It starts with CONVICTION OF SIN (god's word to you) by the Holy Spirit, without which NOBOY is Born again. THEN you can can take HIS YOKE UPON YOU, and learn of him.

 

[TomL]

It starts with CONVICTION OF SIN (god's word to you) by the Holy Spirit, without which NOBOY is Born again. THEN you can can take HIS YOKE UPON YOU, and learn of him.

All that is offered to unbelievers is conviction. Unbelievers are not led into all knowledge

 

[360watt]

Yup there is nothing behavior wise a person can do to be converted. Before conversion all are dead in sin.

Conversion is pure and simply entrusting your salvation with Jesus. Going from unbelief to belief in Jesus. That is it.

 

[TomL]

Yup there is nothing behavior wise a person can do to be converted. Before conversion all are dead in sin.

Conversion is pure and simply entrusting your salvation with Jesus. Going from unbelief to belief in Jesus. That is it.

And when one has believed one has his sins forgiven and is saved