He that believes and is not water baptised is saved
- Thread starter 360watt
- Start date
There are many that believe salvation is also Spirit baptism.. is that what they mean?
Titus
Active member
Yes Sir, These Baptist preachers/Greek Scholars agree with me.
John 3:5 is water baptism of John.
They do not believe in water baptism for salvation as their theology will not allow it.
I agree with these men that John 3:5 is water baptism.
I disagree with their denial that Jesus joins together belief and baptism for salvation.
John 3:5 ; Matthew 28:19 ; Mark 16:15-16
MTMattie
Well-known member
MTMattie
Well-known member
Titus
Active member
Fine.
You are free to disagree with all the Baptist greek Scholars that teach water is John's baptism in John 3:5.
Misinterpretation of Scripture doesn't prove anything.
John 3:6 confirms Jesus is not teaching physical birth but spiritual birth.
Jesus only says you must be born again.
John 3:5 joins water with Spirit in order to enter the kingdom of God.
Therefore if water is physical then Spirit is physical.
To enter the kingdom you must physically be born of water and Spirit(physical) to enter the kingdom.
Jesus would never teach to enter His spiritual kingdom you must do something physical.
To enter Gods kingdom requires spiritual as His kingdom is a spiritual kingdom.
water baptism according to Jesus is spiritual not physical,
Matthew 21:25,
- the baptism of John whence was it from heaven(spiritual) or of men(physical)
MTMattie
Well-known member
Titus
Active member
Jesus joined water with Spirit in John 3:5.
Jesus teaches John's baptism is spiritual, Matthew 21:25
Jesus would never require something physical(water) to gain access to His spiritual kingdom.
Logically Jesus said unless you are born of water(requirement) and the Spirit(requirement) you cannot gain access into His kingdom.
Jesus does not teach only Spirit(requirement) gains access into His spiritual kingdom.
Jesus joins the two together in John 3:5.
To refuse water as a requirement is perverting Jesus' teaching/words.
Both Spirit and water baptism of John are the prerequisites for entering Gods kingdom.
Just as Jesus joined belief with baptism to be saved in Mark 16:16.
All the prerequisites that Jesus taught are spiritual in nature.
God would never require anything physical to enter His kingdom.
Matthew 22:29
MTMattie
Well-known member
Jesus joined flesh with Spirit in John 3:6
See what the interlinear says.... I would quotr the Aramaic but have been told those translations are not original.
Read the red... Do you need help? Clue... it starts
That having been born or the flesh is what? Yes, red star if you said flesh.
Read the next verse.
and that having been born of the Spirit (note capital S for Holy Spirit) is what? Yes... gold star if you said spirit small s
for mans spirit.
[td][/td]
[td][/td]
Titus
Active member
Jesus did not join flesh and Spirit.
That is a misunderstanding of the text.
Jesus made a distinction between flesh and spirit.
John 3:6,
-that which is born of flesh is flesh(meaning it is not spiritual in nature)...
- and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit( meaning born again is spiritual in nature)
Jesus distinguishes the difference between flesh(physical) and Spirit(spiritual).
He does not join them together.
If Jesus did as you say,
then Jesus said you must do a physical non-spritual work(water) joined with the spiritual work of the Holy Spirit to enter into My spiritual kingdom.
No way.
Here is some of Graves writing..which says if you don't get baptized, it is fair to question your salvation: from the reformed reader site,
"Do not fail to do it—do not refuse to do it, and still hope to be saved, for you have no right to hope for salvation. Not because there is any merit in the act, or any grace conferred by baptism per se, but because such aversion to do the will of Christ should be an all-convincing evidence to you that your heart is not right in the sight of God—that you are as Simon Magus was, "in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity."
"Do not fail to do it—do not refuse to do it, and still hope to be saved, for you have no right to hope for salvation. Not because there is any merit in the act, or any grace conferred by baptism per se, but because such aversion to do the will of Christ should be an all-convincing evidence to you that your heart is not right in the sight of God—that you are as Simon Magus was, "in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity."
Titus
Active member
Very good.
Mr. Graves does not believe initial salvation requires baptism but it is an evidence of a new heart.
Jesus taught it is essential to ones salvation.
If baptism is not essential to ones salvation, then one can be saved through disobedience to Gods direct commandments.
Peter through the revelation of the Holy Spirit working through him commanded water baptism to Cornelius.
If Cornelius refused a direct commandment from God.
Could he have been saved?
If so, then Jesus' gospel is salvation through belief alone and disobedience to God.
the will of the Father is firstly, to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
mailmandan
Well-known member
Amen! John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
Titus
Active member
Cherry picking.
Romans 10:2,
- for I bear them record that they have a zeal of God but not according to knowledge
And the context of this verse?.....
mailmandan
Well-known member
In context, who is being addressed? Israel. (vs. 1) What was the problem? Romans 10:3 - For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Seeking justification by law = zeal for God but not according to knowledge here. So, accusing me of having a zeal for God but not according to knowledge by citing Romans 10:2 is a false accusation. I am not an Israelite who is seeking justification by law. My faith is in Jesus Christ for salvation and is not in my own righteousness which is from the law. (Philippians 3:9)
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. So, in John 6:40 and Romans 10:4 we see that those who believe have submitted to the righteousness of God and shall have eternal life. Elsewhere in Scripture, Jesus repeated multiple times that those who believe shall have eternal life. (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) The apostle Paul also repeatedly said in Scripture that those who believe will be saved. (Acts 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5-6; 1 Corinthians 1:21)
Should we also accuse Jesus and Paul of cherry picking and disregard those verses or should we believe Jesus and Paul?
dwight92070
Well-known member
Romans 1:4-7 " ... who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His names sake, among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ; to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: ... "
Did you notice the obedience required of a potential believer is to HAVE FAITH in Jesus? Not water baptism.
Did you notice the obedience required of a potential believer is to HAVE FAITH in Jesus? Not water baptism.
dwight92070
Well-known member
Romans 1:16-17 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, 'But the righteous man shall live by faith.' "
So the power of God for salvation is given to anyone who believes the gospel of Jesus Christ. This man begins his life as a newborn Christian by faith and then he continues his walk in the Spirit by faith, until he dies, or until Jesus returns. He obeys Jesus and get baptized in water AFTER he is saved.
So the power of God for salvation is given to anyone who believes the gospel of Jesus Christ. This man begins his life as a newborn Christian by faith and then he continues his walk in the Spirit by faith, until he dies, or until Jesus returns. He obeys Jesus and get baptized in water AFTER he is saved.
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