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Mark 16:16~"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
- Thread starter Red Baker
- Start date
dwight92070
Well-known member
The son of a married couple, friends of ours here, is in South Africa with YWAM. He said their team of 15 went into the jungle to a tribe. They were required to take a gift to the chief. If the chief received it, they could stay. If not, they couldn't. Well, he received it, so they were there for 1-2 weeks as I recall and they said over 50 people got saved, and many were physically healed. Then they went into a school and told the kids about Jesus. The latest was that they're going door to door, telling people about Jesus and that 40-50 are getting saved daily. There are 15 kids on their team, mostly in their twenties.
Well, I hope all of that is true and that many are getting genuinely saved and healed, but I'm a little skeptical.
Johann, I gather from the previous post that you live in South Africa. Does this sound feasible to you?
Well, I hope all of that is true and that many are getting genuinely saved and healed, but I'm a little skeptical.
Johann, I gather from the previous post that you live in South Africa. Does this sound feasible to you?
Aeliana
Well-known member
It sounds feasible to me, I think the whole world is having a Revival right now.
Aeliana
Well-known member
Praying for you
Stay safeDoug Brents
Well-known member
The instruction here is for man to do the baptizing. Can you bind the Spirit and make Him do your will to baptize someone you direct Him to? No. You and I cannot cause the Holy Spirit to baptize anyone. So it is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit that is in view here. But it is the baptism of salvation in view here, because the twin passage to Matt 28:19 is Mark 16:16 which links baptism with salvation. And this is the same baptism that is mentioned in 1 Pet 3:21 where baptism, water, and salvation are all in view and linked as one.
You are putting timing distinctions in Scripture where there are none. Yes, the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch, but there is no indication in this verse that they were called Christians before they were baptized. None of the people in the first century (just as it is today) were in Christ until they were baptized.
We are not saved just because we "believe" (give intellectual assent). We are saved because of faith, which requires action to be real. If there is no action, then there is no faith, and thus no salvation.
No, it is not. Many of His disciples left Him (were not genuine believers) when He made controversial claims and disturbing statements (John 6:47-66). Read verse 66 carefully.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
What has "god" done? Which "god" are you talking about? I don't know your "god".
But God has created the world, and God has saved my soul, and God has allowed His Son to die to pay for my sins in my place. But I don't know what "god" (small "g") you are talking about.
You are correct that the story of Naaman is not about salvation from sin. It is a demonstration of what faith is. It is a story about how God (the creator of the universe) deals with man (one of His creations).
Um faith precedes any act it produces
If it did not, nothing reflecting faith would be produced
Doug Brents
Well-known member
The mental portions of faith certainly precede the physical actions, but the mental portions of faith are incomplete, and thus ineffective, without the physical actions (James 2:22), because without the physical actions faith is dead/nonexistent.
Sorry if it drives one to perform acts of faith then it is not ineffective
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Faith that does not produce action is not really faith; it is incomplete. Incomplete faith is meaningless, it is dead. Dead faith cannot bring us to salvation. Thus, faith that does not produce action cannot bring us to salvation.
Did you read what was stated?
Sorry if it drives one to perform acts of faith then it is not ineffective
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Yes, I read what was stated. Do you comprehend the truth of what I am saying?
Faith is not faith until it produces actions. It requires actions to be performed before it is complete, and incomplete faith is not effective for salvation. There is no real faith until the actions of obedience are performed, and it is in those actions that faith is completed and salvation is received.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Faith without action is dead. The dead cannot bring about life. Dead faith cannot bring salvation. Faith may "exist" before it produces action, but it is not complete nor can it bring salvation until it produces action.
Sorry that is begging the question.
Only a "faith" which fails to produce deeds is dead
Doug Brents
Well-known member
A "faith" which fails to produce deeds is not really faith at all. That kind of "faith" is merely "lip service", "wishful thinking".
Concession to James. The point however is faith must exist as the motivation to action
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Certainly faith must exist as the motivation to action, but as James says, faith alone is not what saves us. It is faith along with the actions that it motivates by which we are saved (James 2:24).
James 2:24 does not say we are saved by faith plus actions
that is your misunderstanding
James 2:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
here it justified i.e. vindicated
James speaks of vindication
while Paul speaks of an accounting as righteous
Romans 4 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
If you want to make a distinction between James' and Paul's usage of "justification", let's look at what vindication means.
Vindication:
the fact of proving that someone is not guilty or is free from blame, after other people have blamed them
Is that not exactly what we receive through Jesus? He declares us righteous because He takes our unrighteousness on Himself and He gives us His righteousness. That is, declaring to be righteous one who was thought to be unrighteous. James says that man is justified (declared righteous instead of unrighteous) by his actions, not just by the motivation behind those actions. Paul says that we are justified (accounted as righteous instead of unrighteous) by the motivation that causes him to act, not just by his actions. Both of these are correct. It takes both.
