Doug Brents
Active Member
I appreciate your opinion on this. I would love to hear why you think it is false.
He that believes and is not water baptised is saved
- Thread starter 360watt
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@Doug Brents
Doug, that's a given, and everyone from the Pope to the street preacher agrees with that statement, that's a no brainer, even my youngest grandson would say amen to statement, and he's going on eight, my oldest ones would say, who is this guy trying to deceive?
You added: "nor do we have any influence on Him including every person who has ever, or will ever, live(d) as a potential recipient of His gift."
First of all, even that statement is false, but staying with what you call is not of works, is a pitiful explanation of not of works, lest any man should boast. You must think God's children are dumb sheep, sheep we are, dumb we are not.
In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The only faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ alone had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. "This faith is not of ourselves," it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.
When a man hears and believes, it is not the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God~this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.
I could spend more time proving the metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 by the context in just before verse 8, in verses: 4-6..."But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
We were IN CHRIST from all eternity, even while he lived in this world and in his death and resurrection, which secured our redemption for us. What he did, it was as though we did it, what happen to Christ happened to us legally speaking two thousand years ago.
Doug, you said: "We had/have no influence on God offering Jesus as our redeeming sacrifice"
Doug, that's a given, and everyone from the Pope to the street preacher agrees with that statement, that's a no brainer, even my youngest grandson would say amen to statement, and he's going on eight, my oldest ones would say, who is this guy trying to deceive?
You added: "nor do we have any influence on Him including every person who has ever, or will ever, live(d) as a potential recipient of His gift."
First of all, even that statement is false, but staying with what you call is not of works, is a pitiful explanation of not of works, lest any man should boast. You must think God's children are dumb sheep, sheep we are, dumb we are not.
Not interesting in your wordly storytelling above, as you labor to explain away a precious bible truth.
False! Doug, and @Jim , there are NO conditions for man in the flesh to "meet/do/keep" in order to receive the free gift of eternal life. Eternal life is given freely by God's grace on the behalf of what Jesus did to secured eternal life for us by his obedience and faithfulness, not our.
Ephesians 2:8
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The only faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ alone had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. "This faith is not of ourselves," it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.
When a man hears and believes, it is not the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God~this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.
I could spend more time proving the metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 by the context in just before verse 8, in verses: 4-6..."But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
We were IN CHRIST from all eternity, even while he lived in this world and in his death and resurrection, which secured our redemption for us. What he did, it was as though we did it, what happen to Christ happened to us legally speaking two thousand years ago.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Of course this is obvious, which is why I started here.
So you are saying that mankind did have an influence on God offering salvation to all mankind? Or are you one of those who believe that God did not offer salvation to all mankind, but only to an "elect" few?
Sure we are sheep; Scripture calls us that many times. No, I don't believe mankind is dumb.
So you don't believe that the New Testament/Covenant is the Will (as in 'last will and testament') of Jesus? He states clearly that it is in Heb 9:15-18.
LOL, You haven't read you Scripture very well if you believe that nonsense. Rom 10:9-10 states clearly that there is a condition for the reception of salvation: verbal confession of Jesus as Lord. That one verse puts the lie to your statement. If your belief were true, then the false doctrine of universalism would be truth. Because God desires that everyone be saved (1 Tim 2:4), yet we know from Jesus' own words that not everyone will be saved (Matt 7:13-14).
There is so much in this statement that is wrong; where to begin! Just wow!
The word "that" in the phrase "that not of yourselves" is referring back to salvation, not faith, not grace. Both faith and grace are part of prepositional phrases. The only portion of the sentence that "that not of yourselves" could possibly refer to is "are ye saved", and it certainly does not refer to the verb "are", and clearly does not refer to "ye" (since it says "not of yourselves").
As we read in Rom 10, faith comes through hearing the Word of God (the Gospel). Faith is our response to God and His offering of salvation to us.
How pathetic. That completely contradicts Scripture. We are not saved by hearing the Word. If that were true, then every single person who heard the voice of Jesus (the Word) would have been saved. But that is clearly not the case with so many of the Pharisees and other religious leaders.
Oh, now that's rich. We were saved, even when we were dead in sin? Seriously?
Red, you have completely gone off the deep end, and I have no desire to read any more of your blasphemous nonsense.
dwight92070
Active Member
Dwight: It's the view of Hebrews 6:1: "... repentance from dead works and of faith toward God ..." and it is not corrupt.
Dwight: I'm not denying that. That's why I said, "If a person repents BEFORE GOD (meaning a sincere sorrow for how their sins grieved Him), then he is acting in faith (in God through Jesus).
Dwight: The Bible seems to always put repentance before faith. Heb. 6:1 Jesus said, "Repent and believe in the gospel." Mark 1:15 Esau seems to be sorry for what he lost, not for sinning against God. Hebrews 12:17 " ... he was rejected, though he sought for it with tears, for he found no place for repentance."
Dwight: This is just what I said earlier. Calvinists can never be sure that they are part of the chosen or the elect. They won't know until they die. However, Christians know that they are the chosen and the elect, because they are IN CHRIST by faith, and Christ IS THE CHOSEN ONE.
Dwight: I already said that using the word "synonymous" was probably the wrong word. But you can't have salvation without true sincere repentance before God, and you can't have true sincere repentance before God without it leading to salvation. That is my understanding of the Bible and I don't believe that is a corrupt understanding.
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That doesn't mean that one of faith does not need to repent before God. Repenting is still a necessary condition.
Not always. Acts 2:38 is speaking to those who have believed what Peter said about Jesus. They, those who believed, were told to repent. Throughout the bible, faith is presented as the preeminent condition; without faith, nothing else really matters. But that doesn't mean that faith is the only condition.
Then they, if they have only believed, are as delusional as you. The phrase "in Christ" is one of the most used expressions in the NT. The phrase "in Christ" appears over 80 times in the ESV, NASB, NKJV and NIV and it appears over 70 times in the KJV. But so far as I find, there are only a couple of those verses that describe how one actually becomes "in Christ". Galatians 3:27 is one. It says, "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ". Romans 6:3 also suggests how we become in Christ. It says, "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" All the rest of the 80+ verses describe the benefits of being in Christ but not necessarily how one attains that position.
So you have just said there that repentance is a necessary condition placed upon the believer. I agree with that. Acts 2:38 states that quite clearly. It also states that baptism is also a necessary condition placed upon the believer as does Mark 16:16; Matthew 28-19-20; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3-4 and several other passages. Confession is another such condition, even though is is given only a couple of times.
360watt
Active Member
Repentance is a 'change of mind, heart'. Repentance and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ are essentially the same thing.
Its like when people say 'I turn from sin and believe on you Jesus' what do they mean by 'turn from sin' ?
If that is knowing you are a sinner and believing on Jesus.. that's great!
If that is self effort in reducing sin before salvation.. that does nothing. They are still a sinner before salvation no matter how much they reduce it.
If that is committing by intention to continously be faithful..its still self effort before salvation that does nothing.
It may be just semantics..but 'turning from sin' or 'committing my life to Christ ' needs to be unpacked to actually what it means.
Its like when people say 'I turn from sin and believe on you Jesus' what do they mean by 'turn from sin' ?
If that is knowing you are a sinner and believing on Jesus.. that's great!
If that is self effort in reducing sin before salvation.. that does nothing. They are still a sinner before salvation no matter how much they reduce it.
If that is committing by intention to continously be faithful..its still self effort before salvation that does nothing.
It may be just semantics..but 'turning from sin' or 'committing my life to Christ ' needs to be unpacked to actually what it means.
Tothalordbeallglory
Active Member
Be on guard for many already suckle from the paps of the harlot and her milk of love that has enslaved them to the lie .
And soon the IRON yoke cometh . The churches kept shunning GOD and THE TRUE JESUS
in favor of another god and of another jesus . And no matter how the few warned them
they refused to hear and now accuse us of being haters , as they cast behind them the words of GOD
and his saints . For all this JUDGMENT COMETH . I did what i could to warn us for years and for years .
But this people and their so called love LED THEM INTO absolute hatred
against the very GOD and HIS CHRIST in that bible . Do not sip the cup of the ecuminal harlot
for it is a drink of death and delusion .
This is a friendly , but dire necessary and needful reminder .
360watt
Active Member
Yes. What im saying here is indeed not ecumenicism. Because it removes works completely from belief on Jesus Christ.
Ecumenicism would have a whole lot of nice behaviors all denominations can agree on..and water down salvation.
Tothalordbeallglory
Active Member
That is simply not true by any rational meaning of the words repent and believe. Is it possible to believe in Jesus Christ and not repent? Yes, James wrote His entire letter or book of James dealing with just the answer to such a question.
The difference is more than just semantics. What needs to be unpacked is what it actually means to believe, to have faith in God, in Jesus Christ, in the gospel.
It does not remove works completely. It removes works of law. To believe work, to repent is work, to confess is work, to be baptized is to submit to the work of another. Those are all things we do; they are works. None of those are works of law.
@Doug Brents My point being, why even mentioned something so obiuos
Secondly, are you mocking God's election of free grace? Then when you see Christ, mock on and see where that might get you. You might would want to reconsider your mocking, before it is too late. Romans 11:1-6
My point being, why even mentioned something so obvious, yet has not one thing to do with Salvation from sin and condemnation not being of works and you vain attempt to make a connection to salvation not being by works by saying what you said.
In no way I'm I saying that.
First of all, God does not offer salvation from sin and condemnation to sinners as though they have the power to understand and are able to do spiritual acts pleasing to God before having a new nature! Salvation is FREELY impart to those for whom Christ secured their salvation from sin and condemnation. John 17 is very clear as to this truth.
Secondly, are you mocking God's election of free grace? Then when you see Christ, mock on and see where that might get you. You might would want to reconsider your mocking, before it is too late. Romans 11:1-6
Doug, spiritually speaking that are without "any" spiritual understanding, knowledge and true wisdom.
Of course I do, never hinted otherwise, so do not put words into my mouth.
I have address Romans 10:1-13 so many times in the last few month on this forum site, not going to keep doing so. I will just say this for now. Romans 10:1-13 is not addressing salvation from sin and condemnation but a practical salvation from ignorance to the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. CONTEXT, Doug, read the context to see what Paul is addressing for those whom he gives testimony that they fear God and had a zeal for him, but NOT based on true knowledge! Much like you and brother Jim are living examples of those in Romans 10 that Paul pray for. They were going about to e establish their own righteousness in what they had done to come to believe in God, much like you and Jim.
Cop out! Fine, stop reading, that's your choice, but I still will expose your false gospel.
Doug Brents
Active Member
The reason for pointing out this truth is that this is the point at which we had no influence. We do have influence on God applying to us His gift of salvation during our life, but we had no influence in Him offering it in the first place. That is what Scripture is talking about when it says that salvation is not of works. It is not saying that we don't have to do anything to receive it.
That is at least one thing you have right then.
You need to study Scripture more completely. This sentence shows a complete misunderstanding of reality.
Salvation has been offered to all mankind. There is not a single human whom God could not save through the blood of His Son.
Again, you display your ignorance and misunderstanding of Scripture. God has elected to save those who come to Him in faith. His election is based on those He knew would come to Him in faith (Rom 8:29). It was not the arbitrary choice many want to make it out to be.
Again, incorrect.
Such revisionist sentiments; just wow. The point of all Scripture is salvation from sin, not salvation from ignorance, and Rom 10:1-13 is no different.
You only expose your own false gospel.
