brightfame52
Well-known member
Yes it does, unfortunately you dont see it. The bad thing about it, you dont believe the death of Christ in and of itself Justified anyone.
Justification by Faith
- Thread starter brightfame52
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civic
Well-known member
Yes those who believe. Faith is always the criteria in both testaments as affirmed in Hebrew 11 .
brightfame52
Well-known member
Thats works and unbelief then.
civic
Well-known member
no all in Hebrews 11 were saved by faith, not works
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Please show me where in Scripture it says "in and of itself" the death of Christ saved us. Where is that language, or even the approximation of it, in Scripture?
Everyone in Heb 11 were saved by faith, and their faith was made perfect, complete, and effective by their actions (James 2:20-26).
civic
Well-known member
Agreed
brightfame52
Well-known member
When the Scriptures speak of justification by faith[Rom 5:1], they are speaking of faith’s welcoming of the finished work of Christ, not of faith’s contributing to it and finalization of it. It is this recognition of Christ and His finished work as our all-sufficient, effectual Substitute and Savior by which our hearts and minds are reconciled to God. Sinners are not judicially acquitted by their faith, but by the blood/death of Christ[Rom 5:9]. We simply receive the knowledge of that pardon[Lk 1:77] and the peace that knowledge brings by faith in Christ [Rom15:13 ]f
civic
Well-known member
Saving faith is trusting in the person and work of Christ when they hear the gospel call and respond in genuine faith. Man believes and God saves. God does not believe for man. That is mans responsibility to exercise their faith in Gods provision which is Christ crucified as outlined in 1 Cor 15.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
This is the closest thing to the truth that I have ever heard you say.
But we are not pardoned simply by receiving knowledge that the pardon is available. Faith is not passive acceptance of knowledge, but active obedience to the conditions set by the gift giver (God) for the reception of His gift.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Hab 2:4
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Rom 1:17
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Gal 3:11
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Heb 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
I must point out that the word shall in each of these verses denotes a promise, something that is determined by God to happen !
In each of the NT references here the shall denotes future indicative :
future :
The future tense corresponds to the English future, and indicates the contemplated or certain occurrence of an event which has not yet occurred.
indicative:
The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood
Its a certain fact that the just shall live by Faith. Now who are the just who shall live by Faith ? Its all of the many that shall be made righteous by the Obedience of One Rom 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Now that word righteous is the very exact greek word for just in Rom 1:17 its the word dikaios and means:
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Rom 1:17
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Gal 3:11
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Heb 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
I must point out that the word shall in each of these verses denotes a promise, something that is determined by God to happen !
In each of the NT references here the shall denotes future indicative :
future :
The future tense corresponds to the English future, and indicates the contemplated or certain occurrence of an event which has not yet occurred.
indicative:
The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood
Its a certain fact that the just shall live by Faith. Now who are the just who shall live by Faith ? Its all of the many that shall be made righteous by the Obedience of One Rom 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Now that word righteous is the very exact greek word for just in Rom 1:17 its the word dikaios and means:
- righteous, observing divine laws
- in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
- of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined
- innocent, faultless, guiltless
- used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life
- only Christ truly
- approved of or acceptable of God
- in a narrower sense, rendering to each his due and that in a judicial sense, passing just judgment on others, whether expressed in words or shown by the manner of dealing with them
just; especially, just in the eyes of God; righteous; the elect (a Jewish idea).
So this means that all of the many that the obedience of one made righteous, they are certain to one day live by Faith.
If anyone Christ lived, died, and rose again for doesn't eventually live by his Faith, scripture in the above four instances Hab 2:4; Rom 1:17; Gal 3:11; and Heb 10:38 are untrue ! Which I know the scripture is true, all men are liars !
- in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Absolutely NOT. A "good work" is GOOD regardless of who does it. However, if it's "Becoming Born Again" we're talking about, "good works" have no effect on that. (Eph 2:8,9)
brightfame52
Well-known member
Doug Brents
Well-known member
First, it has already been established that Christ lived, died, and rose again for all mankind; every single soul that has ever or will ever live (John 3:16, 1 John 2:2, Heb 10:10, Rom 6:10, Heb 9:26, John 1:29, John 11:25, Rom 5:8, Heb 2:9, 2 Cor 5:15, Isa 53:5, 1 Tim 4:10, and many, many more.
Now, if the just shall live by faith, and someone doesn't live by faith, what does that say about him? Obviously, he is not just. Thus there are many who Christ died for who will not live by faith, and thus they are not just or justified. You are reading the passages above and getting the cause and effect out of order. It is not the justified who live by faith. It is those who live by faith that are justified.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Christ lived and died for and rose again for the Justified of mankind. And since He did, they shall live by Faith
Doug Brents
Well-known member
All of the passages listed above say that Christ died for EVERY SINGLE (AND MARRIED, lol) HUMAN BEING WHO HAS EVER, OR WILL EVER, LIVE. You keep ignoring clear Scripture and spouting this nonsense that He only died for a few, which is not true in the least.
Because He died for everyone, it is those who live by faith that are justified, not those who are justified who live by faith. You continue to get this wrong.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Everyone Jesus died for, He Justified, so they will/shall live by Faith.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
I can see this is getting us no where. You didn't even read the passages of Scripture I listed, did you? If you don't read what Scripture says, you cannot learn from what God has to teach you.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Does God count ones Faith as righteousness ?
Rom 4:5,9But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Folks many deceivers and spiritually unlearned have taken scriptures like these and stated that they are teaching that a mans faith is counted to God as their righteousness. However that's not true, those scriptures teach that the object of ones Faith [ Christ] is their righteousness. God given Faith reveals Christ as their righteousness. Paul wrote 1 Cor 1:30
.30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Now how does one come to know if Christ has been made their righteousness of God ?
God sends a Gospel message to them, wherein the righteousness of God [Christ] is revealed to their God given Faith Rom 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Now Faith cant be the believers righteousness when righteousness is being revealed to Faith, go figure !
brightfame52
Well-known member
Those who continue to believe and teach that a mans faith is counted righteousness, then they fall into the snare of teaching that men are made righteous by a work of the law, or obedience to the law which contradicts the scripture Gal 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
civic
Well-known member
Correct faith is the active part which is man’s responsibility and without exercising faith in Christ cannot be saved. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ- the gospel as outlined in 1 Cor 15:1-8 and Romans 10:9-17.
hope this helps !!!
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