Justification by Faith

[praise_yeshua]

All i can say is if a person believes they are Justified before God based on their good works, they are under strong delusion to believe a lie.

1Co 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
1Co 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

Paul stated it perfectly above. Stewardship requires faithfulness. However, there is no Judge but God. It is a small thing to be judged by those that have no power over us.

It is one thing to believe that men should be faithful and an entirely another thing to believe that faithfulness is requirement for redemption.

 

[praise_yeshua]

James 2:24 is not a lie.

Actually, I believe it just that. I know we agree about many thing but I disagree here. The writer is nothing more than a man making an empty argument. The writer clear requires justification by the law. There are many things wrong with this position.

I've mentioned this before but the writer appeals to a time around 25 years removed from when Abraham was justified by faith. While Abraham was faithful, he was not perfect. He was a man. A man much better than myself but a man nonetheless.

I have no problem with teaching that those that name the name of Christ depart from iniquity... however, it one thing to believe we should please God with our efforts and an entirely different thing to try to establish an theology wherein justification includes "working". Our efforts are reckoned against a debt that has already been paid. We are not receiving wages for our efforts that count toward justification.

 

[Behold]

For its by this Faith alone how The elect obtain Justification

Its by giving God your faith in Christ that you become the "elect".

All the born again are the Elect.

God does not choose you to become the elect, .. .Its your faith in Christ that elects you to become a "Son/Daughter of God".

God has pre-destined all who give Him faith in Christ to become the ELECT, and this has an end result, that is... to be "conformed into the image of Christ".

 

[praise_yeshua]

Its by giving God your faith in Christ that you become the "elect".

All the born again are the Elect.

God does not choose you to become the elect, .. .Its your faith in Christ that elects you to become a "Son/Daughter of God".

We can seek God but it never becomes "choosing" God on our own. We can seek but obtaining requires intimate knowledge only imparted in the process. In these types of discussions, there are details that are often overlooked in the process.

 

[synergy]

Actually, I believe it just that. I know we agree about many thing but I disagree here. The writer is nothing more than a man making an empty argument. The writer clear requires justification by the law. There are many things wrong with this position.

Where do you see "justification by the law" anywhere in James? Abraham was pre-Law and Rahab was not even a Jew.

I've mentioned this before but the writer appeals to a time around 25 years removed from when Abraham was justified by faith. While Abraham was faithful, he was not perfect. He was a man. A man much better than myself but a man nonetheless.

It's still by faith that Abraham did what God told him to do back then.

I have no problem with teaching that those that name the name of Christ depart from iniquity... however, it one thing to believe we should please God with our efforts and an entirely different thing to try to establish an theology wherein justification includes "working".

We must be careful to identify which works are being referred to by both James and Paul. These are not works of the Law; they are God preordained works that God elects us to do. So their source is God, not ourselves.

Our efforts are reckoned against a debt that has already been paid. We are not receiving wages for our efforts that count toward justification.

Since their source is God, and it's God working in us, and Jesus did in fact tell us to pick up our Cross and follow Him, then it's in that Spirit we are justified. Notice that Christ said "our Cross". Does that mean that His work on the Cross is incomplete? No. But He still expects us to emulate Him as Images of Him, for which we are predestined for.

Of course our belief in Christ justifies us, through Christ's Atonement, but notice how many times Abraham was deemed justified by the Bible. Justification is not always a one and no more. Preordained good works do justify.

 

[Behold]

We can seek God but it never becomes "choosing" God on our own.

"faith is counted (by God) as righteousness".

"without faith its impossible to please God".

Jesus said...>"all that Believe in Me, i give unto them Eternal Life, and they shall never go to Hell, (Perish).'""

He did not say, all that i force to believe, or all that i choose to believe....
Notice that, reader?

The Gift of Salvation, is Jesus on the Cross, and to receive this eternal Gift, you have to give God your faith in Christ.

A.) Free Will existed in the first Adam, who chose to kneel before the serpent, having decided to bite the fruit of spiritual death....., and 2nd Adam decided to go to the Cross, saying "not MY WILL, but your's Father, ... that i will do".

See that ?

That the FREE will of Adam the 1st, and the 2nd, and you have the FREE will also, to decline God's Grace .....or to CHOOSE to Give God your Faith in Christ.

God will respect your choice, now, and after you die.

 

[brightfame52]

Don't agree not with the scripture but what you're thinking about it. Most of the newer translations even have the word "faith" down in Gal 5:22 as "faithfulness"

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Gal 5:22 NIV

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Gal 5:22 ESV

Even the New King James as changed that recognizing the older version didn't put it right. (see below)

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Gal 4:22 NewKJ

22 versions on Bible Hub translations have it down as faithfulness too. Meaning if you're walking in the Spirit you will show stability of character nothing to do with receiving salvation by faith. I get it why a Calvinist would want to keep it as faith but it's really not in the context.

The word is faith or faithfulness

 

[brightfame52]

James 2:24 is not a lie.

I didnt say it was, I said you believe a lie.

 

[brightfame52]

1Co 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
1Co 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

Paul stated it perfectly above. Stewardship requires faithfulness. However, there is no Judge but God. It is a small thing to be judged by those that have no power over us.

It is one thing to believe that men should be faithful and an entirely another thing to believe that faithfulness is requirement for redemption.

I dont know what in the world you talking about.

 

[brightfame52]

Its by giving God your faith in Christ that you become the "elect".

All the born again are the Elect.

God does not choose you to become the elect, .. .Its your faith in Christ that elects you to become a "Son/Daughter of God".

God has pre-destined all who give Him faith in Christ to become the ELECT, and this has an end result, that is... to be "conformed into the image of Christ".

I dont know what you talking about.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Where do you see "justification by the law" anywhere in James? Abraham was pre-Law and Rahab was not even a Jew.

I agree. However, the writer was a Jew. I've extensively debated Messianic Judaism as well as various sects of religious Jews. The writer of the manuscript has a very rudimentary understanding of the impact of Jesus Christ upon man. His bias toward the law is what you find in the writing.

It's still by faith that Abraham did what God told him to do back then.

I agree. What Abraham did by faith is reckoned toward debt. Not wages classified as "works".

We must be careful to identify which works are being referred to by both James and Paul. These are not works of the Law; they are God preordained works that God elects us to do. So their source is God, not ourselves.

I don't believe you can actually establish that argument from the Scriptures. That argument is a traditional Jewish argument that I'm well versed in.

Jas_2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

We can take James for exactly what he says/writes.

Since their source is God, and it's God working in us, and Jesus did in fact tell us to pick up our Cross and follow Him, then in that Spirit we are justified. Notice that Christ said "our Cross". Does that mean that His work on the Cross is incomplete? No. But He still expects us to emulate Him as Images of Him, for which we are predestined for.

Christ used an analogy. Our crosses all look different from one another. Some have more sacrifices than others. Emulating Christ is pointing people to God's work in Christ. We can't do exactly what Christ has done. In fact, if we start telling others we can.... Guess what others do.... They start putting us between them and Christ. Christ never wanted that. You must realize that the apostles were great men but men nonetheless. There were competing narratives among them. We must recognize that. Some were better than others at detailing their theology. Paul being one of the best. Which is one of the reasons many of his writings still survive today.

Of course our belief in Christ justifies us, through Christ's Atonement, but notice how many times Abraham was deemed justified by the Bible. Justification is not always a one and done. Preordained good works do justify.

Never said it was a one time event. I say it is always through faith. It is continually through faith. Abraham could NOT do what God did when He offered His Son. Which is why the angel stopped Abraham. That work is ALL GOD.....

 

[praise_yeshua]

I dont know what in the world you talking about.

You were arguing over faith vs faithful. The very first verse in what I posted clearly states that it is required of a steward that a man be found faithful. No faithfulness, no steward.

 

[praise_yeshua]

"faith is counted (by God) as righteousness".

"without faith its impossible to please God".

Jesus said...>"all that Believe in Me, i give unto them Eternal Life, and they shall never go to Hell, (Perish).'""

He did not say, all that i force to believe, or all that i choose to believe....
Notice that, reader?

The Gift of Salvation, is Jesus on the Cross, and to receive this eternal Gift, you have to give God your faith in Christ.

A.) Free Will existed in the first Adam, who chose to kneel before the serpent, having decided to bite the fruit of spiritual death....., and 2nd Adam decided to go to the Cross, saying "not MY WILL, but your's Father, ... that i will do".

See that ?

That the FREE will of Adam the 1st, and the 2nd, and you have the FREE will also, to decline God's Grace .....or to CHOOSE to Give God your Faith in Christ.

God will respect your choice, now, and after you die.

I believe you misunderstand what I wrote. I believe God desires us to choose Him. I'm not a Calvinist that believe the contrary. In fact, I believe a freewill choice in the work of Jesus Christ was God's Eternal intent in creation.

God desires such from His creation. I don't believe God is dumb enough to try to force someone to love Him.

 

[Behold]

I dont know what you talking about.

The NT teaches that the born again is "pre-destined to be conformed into the image of Christ".

All the born again, are the ELECT, who are pre-destined to become conformed into the image of Christ.

JOHN CALVINISM, twisted those and similar verses into..."God pre-destined some to be saved"

"God pre-destined others to be born to go to Hell"

"The Cross is limited to those whom God chose".

He made all this up, because Calvin could not understand that God knowing everything that is going to happen.. (Foreknowledge) is not the same as God causing it all to happen.

Calvin redefined "God's Foreknowledge" as... "God pre-destined it all".

See that twisted LIE?

He could not comprehend "God's Foreknowledge"...., and Calvinist's also cannot understand this, as their mind is blinded to this simple fact., as was Calvin's.

 

[Behold]

I believe you misunderstand what I wrote. I believe God desires us to choose Him. I'm not a Calvinist that believe the contrary. In fact, I believe a freewill choice in the work of Jesus Christ was God's Eternal intent in creation.

God desires such from His creation. I don't believe God is dumb enough to try to force someone to love Him.

You wrote ..

'""""We can seek God but it never becomes "choosing" God on our own. """"


So, if we dont Choose Christ by faith, by free will...., then Who chooses for us?

 

[praise_yeshua]

You wrote ..

'""""We can seek God but it never becomes "choosing" God on our own. """"


So, if we dont Choose Christ by faith, by free will...., then Who chooses for us?

Can a "fool" claim a choice in what someone else has done for them?

I was a fool that said "there is no God" till the work of the Gospel came my way.

Besides. Jesus told His disciple that they didn't choose Him. Jesus CAME BY brother. If He hadn't done this, just where would we be? There is zero room for claiming a meritorious choice in God. He is altogether lovely. It is fool that rejects God.

 

[brightfame52]

You were arguing over faith vs faithful. The very first verse in what I posted clearly states that it is required of a steward that a man be found faithful. No faithfulness, no steward.

Im showing what Justification by Faith means.

 

[brightfame52]

The NT teaches that the born again is "pre-destined to be conformed into the image of Christ".

All the born again, are the ELECT, who are pre-destined to become conformed into the image of Christ.

JOHN CALVINISM, twisted those and similar verses into..."God pre-destined some to be saved"

"God pre-destined others to be born to go to Hell"

"The Cross is limited to those whom God chose".

He made all this up, because Calvin could not understand that God knowing everything that is going to happen.. (Foreknowledge) is not the same as God causing it all to happen.

Calvin redefined "God's Foreknowledge" as... "God pre-destined it all".

See that twisted LIE?

He could not comprehend "God's Foreknowledge"...., and Calvinist's also cannot understand this, as their mind is blinded to this simple fact., as was Calvin's.

Stay on topic, this is about Justification by Faith, thats what Im arguing.

 

[Behold]

Can a "fool" claim a choice in what someone else has done for them?

1 Corinthians 4:10


And also...

Salvation is God as Christ on the Cross.

Jesus said.."If i be lifted up, i will draw ALL people to me'.

John 3:16 says that God Gave His Son to the WORLD.

So, ALL + World, = Calvin is a liar., who said that God chooses some, and rejects others.

See, FREE WILL is Choice., and just like you have the Choice to Read what im writing, you have the choice to respond.
God is not choosing this for you.

Here is the most important aspect... of this "free will", debate with Calvin..

God would not be JUST, Fair, Honest, or Right, if people go to Hell for UNBELIEF< and its God who would not "choose them to believe".

 

[synergy]

I agree. However, the writer was a Jew. I've extensively debated Messianic Judaism as well as various sects of religious Jews. The writer of the manuscript has a very rudimentary understanding of the impact of Jesus Christ upon man. His bias toward the law is what you find in the writing.

Paul was a Jew also. He did not have "a very rudimentary understanding of the impact of Jesus Christ upon man" and neither did James. In fact I see James as having more of an "in your face" view of the impact of Jesus Christ upon man. And James harmonizes both Jewish and non-Jewish worlds when it comes to truly understanding justification. To me, the Book of James is an utter masterpiece because of that.

I agree. What Abraham did by faith is reckoned toward debt. Not wages classified as "works".

I'm not sure what you mean by debt? We are always in debt to God for what Christ accomplished for us, if that's what you mean.

I don't believe you can actually establish that argument from the Scriptures. That argument is a traditional Jewish argument that I'm well versed in.

Paul mentioned God-preordained good works in Eph 2:10. Those are the God preordained works that God elects us to do.

(Eph 2:10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

Jas_2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
We can take James for exactly what he says/writes.

I agree that love fulfills the Law, but love is always active with good works, never inert.

Christ used an analogy. Our crosses all look different from one another. Some have more sacrifices than others. Emulating Christ is pointing people to God's work in Christ. We can't do exactly what Christ has done. In fact, if we start telling others we can.... Guess what others do.... They start putting us between them and Christ. Christ never wanted that. You must realize that the apostles were great men but men nonetheless. There were competing narratives among them. We must recognize that. Some were better than others at detailing their theology. Paul being one of the best. Which is one of the reasons many of his writings still survive today.

We are predestined to be conformed to the Image of Christ and that best happens when we carry our crosses.

Never said it was a one time event. I say it is always through faith. It is continually through faith. Abraham could NOT do what God did when He offered His Son. Which is why the angel stopped Abraham. That work is ALL GOD.....

Just wanted to make sure that you're not someone who thinks that justification is always a once and only once event.