James' Teaching On Justification: Before Men Or Before God?

[Eternally-Grateful]

Belief is a work, John 6:28-29.

John 6:
28hen they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

why do you insist continually misrepresenting Jesus and his words to support your works based Gospel?

THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD.

what is this?

THAT YOU BELIEVE

You do not get credit for believing, and you did not merit salvation because you believed. God gets it all.

You just chose not to remain in unbelief

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

This is the work (singular) of God (play on words) in contrast to what shall we do that we may work the works (plural) of God (legalistic approach) So, belief is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:6) We are saved through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

It's not a lie that you teach salvation by faith "conjoined" with works and try to pass that off as salvation by grace through faith.

Asked and answered. Who obeys Jesus' New Testament commandments? Believers or unbelievers? To believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ in 1 John 3:23 is not a work for salvation but an acceptance of the person and work of Jesus Christ. (John 1:12) This belief is distinct from good works which result from saving faith in Christ. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

I answered your loaded question and salvation through faith is not salvation by good works. You are trying to turn belief in 1 John 3:23 into just another good work in a series of good works in a quest to receive salvation by good works. You tried to pull the same stunt with John 6:29. Not buying it Titus.

Since you teach that salvation is maintained by good works, do you believe the command to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ in 1 John 3:23 is a command for unbelievers to initially come to believe and be saved or to believers to continue to believe and remain saved? Are we created in Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10) or is it the other way around?

I did answer your question. Salvation by faith is not salvation by good works. You verbally confirm salvation by faith, but in practice, you emphasize human actions and obedience to rules as a prerequisite to receiving and maintaining salvation, which essentially undermines the concept of salvation as a free gift received by grace through faith and implies that individuals must somehow work for and merit (at least in part) salvation through their actions/performance. Yet you deny no merit is involved.

1 John 3:23 summarizes two Christian principles. To believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Titus turns this command into salvation by works and makes no distinction between faith and good works. To label believing as just another good work makes it easier for Titus to pool multiple other good works together and pass salvation by good works off as salvation through faith. Very crafty!

Hebrews 11:1 defines faith for us. Faith "is" the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Titus' definition of faith "is" good works. It makes it easier for him to teach salvation by works that way, but it's all just smoke and mirrors.

Works-salvationists have not obeyed the command to believe. Titus does not understand the difference between believing and working. (Romans 4:4-6) It's one thing to obey a command in order to become saved and it's another thing to obey a command after we have been saved. For Titus everything is a command for salvation and a work for salvation. Such confusion!

Works of obedience are produced out of faith but are not the very essence of faith. Just like Roman Catholics you basically redefine faith 'as" works and make no distinction between faith and works. Roman Catholics make the same error and argue that faith "includes" - being water baptized, partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc.. It's a package deal of mental assent belief "infused" with works righteousness disguised as salvation through faith. (Galatians 1:6-9)

Obeying the commandment to believe (1 John 3:23) is not a work for salvation and neither is obeying the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 10:16) Receiving a free gift is not working for salvation. From beginning (Ephesians 2:8) to end (1 Peter 1:9) we merit nothing through believing because through believing (Romans 3:24-26) we are trusting in Another's work (Christ's finished work of redemption). Jesus Christ receives all the merit.

I answered your loaded question and the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes that I teach still stands. (Romans 1:16) Your works based false gospel is easy to expose. (Romans 3:24-26; 4:5-6; 11:6; 1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

Be sure to go back and thoroughly read through post #415. It cuts right to the heart of your error in regard to works salvation. Now apart from the imputed righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ to wash away our sins this is how God see's us - But we are all like an unclean thing and all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags.. (Isaiah 64:6)

Being accounted as righteous by works = merit no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. Paul refutes you. (Romans 4:2-6) So, no merit involved in obtaining and/or maintaining salvation by good works because you are simply doing what God says to do? That makes about as much sense as winning a gold medal in the Olympics = no merit because I was just doing what my coach told me to do. See your logic? Seeking salvation by works is not obeying God. (Romans 4:2-6)

Salvation by faith is not meritorious works salvation until you "add" works to saved through faith, which you have. You even basically redefine faith "as" works. What a mess! Your gospel is an oxymoron.

Now there is a difference between doing God's will in order to become saved: John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

AND

doing God's will after we have been saved: 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

I am amazed that people teach works.

then are called out

then deny they teach works.

then attack those who try to show them what they believe as bearing false witness against them..

this alone should deep inside their souls show there is something wrong with their thinking (pride)

 

[Titus]

Since you like asking loaded questions, I have a question for you. Please explain to me which good works (James 2:15-16) could a Christian accomplish that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments (Matthew 22:37-40) which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18) Is the law of Moses merely limited to ceremonially laws?

You are proving you are an unfair and deceptive man.
You never answered my question.
When one obeys any, any, any of Jesus' commandments in His new testament gospel.
Is it possible to obey Gods commandments and not do a good work?

Dan refuses to answer simple questions knowing it will expose his lies about belief being a good work of obedience.

So to your question.
First we are not under the law of Moses so I dont care what commandments are given under the old law.
I'm not obligated to do/keep any of them.

Is the law of Moses merely limited to ceremonially laws?

No, all of the law is the law.
Many religions try to separate the 10 commandments from ceremonial law. They all are in the law of Moses.

Since you like asking loaded questions,

They are only "losded" to you because they expose your gospel to be false.
They are simple straight forward questions that any man that is honest could easily answer.

, I have a question for you. Please explain to me which good works (James 2:15-16) could a Christian accomplish that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments (Matthew 22:37-40) which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18)

The book of James is only dealing with the new covenant, the gospel of Jesus Christ.
No works of the laws of Moses are being discussed by James.
Matthew 22:37-40 is the law of Moses.
You want to know which good works could a Christian accomplish that are completely detached from these two great commandments by doing the works mentioned by James 2:15-16?

James 2:15-16,
- if a brother or sister be naked and destitute of daily food and one of you say unto them, depart in peace be ye warmed and filled notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body: what doth it profit

- Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love thy Lord God with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy mind,
- this is the first and great commandment
- and the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself

They are not detached by moral standards. Meaning Gods moral standard.
They both are teaching love for God by loving others as God loves everyone.
We must love as God loves.

Gods moral standard is general. Gods morality does not change.
But clearly God has a new covenant that ended the old covenant.
So James is teaching good works in the new covenant which do overlap as moral by their nature.
Again God is the origin of morality.
His morality does not change.
So you will see the same moral standard throughout the entire Bible.
That doesn't mean God did not institute new laws under different covenants.

The old covenant Mosaical law could not free you from sin.
The new covenant which is what James is teaching can.
That is the biggest difference between the two.

That's why James calls Christ new testament law the perfect law of liberty
It liberates all who obey it from there sins.
James 1:25,
- but whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty and continueth therein he being not a forgetful hearer but a DOER of the word this man shall be blessed in his deed/works

Just say it. By faith AND WORKS. That is exactly where your eisegesis takes you.

I dont have a problem with saying it that way, lol

True Biblical saving faith produces obedient works everytime. This an obedient faith, Romans 16:26,
- God made known to al, nations for obedience of faith
Galatians 5:6,
- for in Jesus Christ neither circumcision nor uncircumcision profits anything but faith working by love

Paul's definition of profitable faith has works. Faith and works.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Belief is a work, John 6:28-29.

IF it is Gods work ......

28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

.......... then how is it our work?

IMO it is poorly phrased. Unless it is meant that by we believing it is God's work to make us believe?

I believe. I have faith. For me it is not a work but an absolute priviledge because at any moment God could wipe that from me if
he so chooses.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

IF it is Gods work ......

28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

.......... then how is it our work?

IMO it is poorly phrased. Unless it is meant that by we believing it is God's work to make us believe?

I believe. I have faith. For me it is not a work but an absolute priviledge because at any moment God could wipe that from me if
he so chooses.

it means God did the work of drawing you to him. Of teaching y9ou about him. of giving you the ability to know everything you need to know so you can make an informed decision.

Hence he gets the credit not you

Not of works lest anyone should boast.

No one can boast because they trusted another to do ALL the work required to save them..

 

[Titus]

IF it is Gods work ......

28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

.......... then how is it our work?

IMO it is poorly phrased. Unless it is meant that by we believing it is God's work to make us believe?

I believe. I have faith. For me it is not a work but an absolute priviledge because at any moment God could wipe that from me if
he so chooses.

Another excellent question.

All works that are in Gods new testament gospel are works of God.
The reason is they come or orginanate from His mind.
Man did not think or create with his own mind how God would save us.

God created His own plan of salvation.
Belief in Him is His work as I already taught.
Therefore any commandment He gives is His work, He is the Author of those commandments.
Man did not come up with these commandments.
Therefore when man obeys one of Gods commandments like belief.
Man is not working his own works i.e. works of man.

Man when obeying God is working Gods works.

Not one work of man saves. All works of men is evil, Ephesians 2:8-9 boastful works).
Only the works of God save.

Works of God examples,

Creating new spiritual life, John 3:5-8.
Drawing people to Christ, John 6:44-45.
Giving faith to believe, Phil. 1:29.
Justifying sinners, Romans 8:30.
Sanctifying and preserving believers 1Thessalonians 5:23-24.

Works of men,

Law keeping without faith, Luke 18:9-14.
Ritualism and sacrifices without faith, Gen. 4:3-5.
Self righteous deeds, Paul calls these dead works, Hebrews 6:1.
Using Human wisdom over using Gods wisdom, 1Corinthians 1:18-25.

Believing, repentance, confessing faith in Jesus, being baptized into Christ are all required in Jesus' gospel to be saved.
Not one of these works are mans works.
They are the works of God because He authorized them.
We must work the works of God to be saved by Gods grace and mercy.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Another excellent question.

All works that are in Gods new testament gospel are works of God.
The reason is they come or orginanate from His mind.
Man did not think or create with his own mind how God would save us.

God created His own plan of salvation.
Belief in Him is His work as I already taught.
Therefore any commandment He gives is His work, He is the Author of those commandments.
Man did not come up with these commandments.
Therefore when man obeys one of Gods commandments like belief.
Man is not working his own works i.e. works of man.

Man when obeying God is working Gods works.

Not one work of man saves. All works of men is evil, Ephesians 2:8-9 boastful works).
Only the works of God save.

Works of God examples,

Creating new spiritual life, John 3:5-8.
Drawing people to Christ, John 6:44-45.
Giving faith to believe, Phil. 1:29.
Justifying sinners, Romans 8:30.
Sanctifying and preserving believers 1Thessalonians 5:23-24.

Works of men,

Law keeping without faith, Luke 18:9-14.
Ritualism and sacrifices without faith, Gen. 4:3-5.
Self righteous deeds, Paul calls these dead works, Hebrews 6:1.
Using Human wisdom over using Gods wisdom, 1Corinthians 1:18-25.

Believing, repentance, confessing faith in Jesus, being baptized into Christ are all required in Jesus' gospel to be saved.
Not one of these works are mans works.
They are the works of God because He authorized them.
We must work the works of God to be saved by Gods grace and mercy.

and remember, this user claims he does not teach a works based/merit based salvation..

 

[Titus]

and remember, this user claims he does not teach a works based/merit based salvation..

That's correct.
Faith is never alone, James 2:24.
The faith that saves is the faith that obeys Gods commandments.

So obedient faith is true saving Biblical faith. Romans 16:26
We are saved by grace through faith when faith is properly defined, Ephesians 2:8-9.
Never once does the Bible teach we are saved by faith alone, James 2:24.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That's correct.
Faith is never alone, James 2:24.
The faith that saves is the faith that obeys Gods commandments.

Yes. But salvation happens the moment we are call out in faith.

Not decades later after we have done some works

So obedient faith is true saving Biblical faith. Romans 16:26

Never said otherwise

We are saved by grace through faith when faith is properly defined, Ephesians 2:8-9.

Faith is properly defined as have assurance, Confidence, or trust in someone or something

Are you preaching a confident or assured faith. or a wishy washy faith that may have works?

Never once does the Bible teach we are saved by faith alone, James 2:24.

actually. although the word alone is not used. faith alone )or rather, faith minus any works) is taught all throughout the word.

But I understand, like a modern day pharisee. you must pump your chest of how thankful you are your not like us sinners that Jesus saved

 

[Titus]

Jesus never taught to believe alone to be saved?

The rich young ruler

This young man with great wealth asks Jesus how to inherit eternal life.
He's asking Jesus how to be saved.
Jesus teaches the rich young ruler to be saved you must believe only on Me and you will be saved.
Heres the proof,
Matthew 19:16-
- Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, Teacher, what good work must I do to obtain eternal life
- so Jesus said to him why do you call Me good, no one is good but God, but if you want to have eternal life believe only on Me
- The rich young ruler said to Jesus, is there nothing else required of me, and Jesus said,
No, if you do not put all your faith in Me by only believing I will not save you. Only the one who has Faith alone can be saved, any man who puts trust in keeping My commandments is full of pride thinking he can save himself by doing the works of My will,
- Honor your father and mother and you shall love your neighbor as yourself but not to be saved but because you have been saved
- all these commandments I have kept the young man said, what do I lack?
- Jesus answered, If you want to be perfect, do not do anything I've commanded you in order to obtain My mercy and grace, go sell your possessions and give to the poor if you want, these things are not required of you to be saved, I only ask that you do these good works to show others you have been justified by your faith alone.
- then come follow Me if you want but it's not nessary because you have been saved and you will stay saved regardless of your good works.Trust in Me for only I can save you not your obedience to My will. Do not trust Me when I tell you to work obedience to My commandments to be saved. If you do you never were saved to begin with.
- When the young man heard this statement he went away grieving for he wanted to obey Jesus but he knew if he did Jesus would accuse him of being a works based salvationist not putting his trust in Christ alone but trusting in the works that God commanded him to obey.


Dan and Eternally Grateful,
My dear brothers in Christ.
I ask you to forgive me for my sins of teaching one must obey Jesus by doing what He says to be saved.
I've seen the error of my ways. I repented this afternoon and believed only with no obedience.
I know now I'm saved and can never be lost.
So I'm going to Nevada to gamble. Wish me luck, hopefully I'll hit it big and come home a rich man just like the rich young ruler.
Poor fool he thought he could be saved by keeping Gods commandments.
If only he truly believed in Jesus alone he could have kept all his wealth and gambled possibly doubling his bank account.
See you two in heaven.
- Titus

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Jesus never taught to believe alone to be saved?

The rich young ruler

This young man with great wealth asks Jesus how to inherit eternal life.
He's asking Jesus how to be saved.
Jesus teaches the rich young ruler to be saved you must believe only on Me and you will be saved.
Heres the proof,
Matthew 19:16-
- Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, Teacher, what good work must I do to obtain eternal life
- so Jesus said to him why do you call Me good, no one is good but God, but if you want to have eternal life believe only on Me
- The rich young ruler said to Jesus, is there nothing else required of me, and Jesus said,
No, if you do not put all your faith in Me by only believing I will not save you. Only the one who has Faith alone can be saved, any man who puts trust in keeping My commandments is full of pride thinking he can save himself by doing the works of My will,
- Honor your father and mother and you shall love your neighbor as yourself but not to be saved but because you have been saved
- all these commandments I have kept the young man said, what do I lack?
- Jesus answered, If you want to be perfect, do not do anything I've commanded you in order to obtain My mercy and grace, go sell your possessions and give to the poor if you want, these things are not required of you to be saved, I only ask that you do these good works to show others you have been justified by your faith alone.
- then come follow Me if you want but it's not nessary because you have been saved and you will stay saved regardless of your good works.Trust in Me for only I can save you not your obedience to My will. Do not trust Me when I tell you to work obedience to My commandments to be saved. If you do you never were saved to begin with.
- When the young man heard this statement he went away grieving for he wanted to obey Jesus but he knew if he did Jesus would accuse him of being a works based salvationist not putting his trust in Christ alone but trusting in the works that God commanded him to obey.


Dan and Eternally Grateful,
My dear brothers in Christ.
I ask you to forgive me for my sins of teaching one must obey Jesus by doing what He says to be saved.
I've seen the error of my ways. I repented this afternoon and believed only with no obedience.
I know now I'm saved and can never be lost.

1. You still do not believe this. Because you do not trust God to SAVE YOU
2. You totally lost Jesus words.

The religious jews asked what works they had to do? This is what they thought, as you do. that everyone must do. we must save ourself by our works.

Jesus responded to them, and sadly, like them you fail to grast what jesus said aslo

Jesus did nto say this is YOUR WORK. that YOU BELIEVE

He said IT IS THE WORK OF GOD. that YOU BELIEVE

So I'm going to Nevada to gamble. Wish me luck, hopefully I'll hit it big and come home a rich man just like the rich young ruler.
Poor fool he thought he could be saved by keeping Gods commandments.

Yeah he is a poor fool if he thought he could be saved that way.

If only he truly believed in Jesus alone he could have kept all his wealth and gambled possibly doubling his bank account.
See you two in heaven.
- Titus

lol.. Or he would have confessed and admitted to God he could not keep the law. He loved his money.

And jesus probably would have forgiven him, and saved him, and took that sin away from him..

 

[Titus]

. You still do not believe this. Because you do not trust God to SAVE YOU

Yes, I must trust in Jesus alone not what He tells Me to do.
Thank you for opening my eyes to the truth.
Now let us both do nothing and be saved like the thief on the cross.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes, I must trust in Jesus alone not what He tells Me to do.

Dude you can mock all you want.

All your doing is mocking God and the gospel as any typical modern day pharisee does.

Thank you for opening my eyes to the truth.
Now let us both do nothing and be saved like the thief on the cross.

Or better yet

lets stop pumping our chests how we are not like the sinner. and become like the4 tax collector falling on our knees unable to even look up.

Oh wait. I did that 50 years ago. When will you do this?

 

[mailmandan]

You are proving you are an unfair and deceptive man.
You never answered my question.
When one obeys any, any, any of Jesus' commandments in His new testament gospel.
Is it possible to obey Gods commandments and not do a good work?

I answered your question. Yes after salvation. No to obtain salvation. Good works do not produce good works. Faith produces good works. We are saved through faith and not by works. It's you who is unfair and deceptive with your loaded question. You are trying to turn believing in Jesus for salvation into just another good work in a series of good works in a quest to obtain salvation by good works. You even redefine faith as works. We are saved through faith FIRST then created in Christ Jesus unto good works. (Ephesians 2:10) When Jesus calls believing in Him "the work of God" in John 6:29, this is understood as singular and unique from works (plural) in John 6:28.

Dan refuses to answer simple questions knowing it will expose his lies about belief being a good work of obedience.

The act of obedience that saves is choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 10:16) Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/good works which are produced out of belief/faith. (Ephesians 2:10) Good works are produced from belief.

So to your question.
First we are not under the law of Moses so I don't care what commandments are given under the old law. I'm not obligated to do/keep any of them.

Do you disregard the two great commandments in Matthew 22:37-40? Do you believe they are irrelevant because we are not under the old law? The same two commandments of loving God and our neighbor as ourselves have been carried over from the old law (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18) and are reiterated under the new covenant. (Romans 13:8-10; James 2:15-16; 1 John 3:11; 1 John 5:2 etc..)

No, all of the law is the law.
Many religions try to separate the 10 commandments from ceremonial law. They all are in the law of Moses.

I agree that all of the law is the law including the 10 commandments Thank you for making my point that loving our neighbor as ourselves in James 2:15-16 cannot be dissected from the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

They are only "losded" to you because they expose your gospel to be false.

My gospel is not false. I agree with Paul. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Salvation by good works (your gospel) is false. (Romans 4:5-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

They are simple straight forward questions that any man that is honest could easily answer.

You would make a good cunning lawyer. I gave you my answer. It just wasn't the answer that your itching ears wanted to hear.

The book of James is only dealing with the new covenant, the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Your gospel of works salvation is not in the book of James. It's just an illusion. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not works salvation but is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:18-21)

No works of the laws of Moses are being discussed by James.

Yet the same works of loving our neighbor as ourselves from the law of Moses is carried over in the book of James. By supplying a brother or sister with their physical needs of food and clothing (James 2:15-16) we are loving our neighbor as ourselves.

Matthew 22:37-40 is the law of Moses.
You want to know which good works could a Christian accomplish that are completely detached from these two great commandments by doing the works mentioned by James 2:15-16?

So, according to you supplying a brother or sister with their physical needs of food and clothing has nothing to do with loving our neighbor as ourself in Matthew 22:37-40 so just disregard the words of Jesus there? Its an outdated OT law anyway?

James 2:15-16,
- if a brother or sister be naked and destitute of daily food and one of you say unto them, depart in peace be ye warmed and filled notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body: what doth it profit

- Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love thy Lord God with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy mind,
- this is the first and great commandment
- and the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself

Would that be loving your neighbor as yourself in James 2:15-16?

They are not detached by moral standards. Meaning Gods moral standard.
They both are teaching love for God by loving others as God loves everyone.
We must love as God loves.

So, they are not detached by moral standards in the OT and NT. Thank you for making my point.

Gods moral standard is general. Gods morality does not change.

Exactly! Now we are getting somewhere.

But clearly God has a new covenant that ended the old covenant.

True. (Hebrews 8:13)

So James is teaching good works in the new covenant which do overlap as moral by their nature.

Moral indeed.

Again God is the origin of morality.
His morality does not change.
So you will see the same moral standard throughout the entire Bible.
That doesn't mean God did not institute new laws under different covenants.

So, God's moral standard still stands. Again, thank you for making my point for me.

The old covenant Mosaical law could not free you from sin.
The new covenant which is what James is teaching can.
That is the biggest difference between the two.

Works under either covenant cannot free you from sin. Only Jesus can. (Romans 3:24-26; 4:5-6; 10:1-4; Philippians 3:9)

That's why James calls Christ new testament law the perfect law of liberty
It liberates all who obey it from there sins.
James 1:25,
- but whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty and continueth therein he being not a forgetful hearer but a DOER of the word this man shall be blessed in his deed/works

Law keeping, whether OT or NT is not what takes away our sins. The law of liberty is not about salvation by works, but rather, a declaration of righteousness and salvation by Christ, a free promise of eternal life through Him. Paul makes the same point when he refers to the “law of faith” in Romans 3:27. The perfect liberty found in Christ fulfills the “perfect law” because Christ was the only one who could. Those who come to Him in faith now have freedom from sin’s bondage and are able to obey God. Only Jesus Christ alone can set us free from our sins and give us true liberty. (John 8:36)

I don't have a problem with saying it that way, lol

You don't have a problem with saying it that way because you are trusting in works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone. You mainly have a problem with understanding that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

True Biblical saving faith produces obedient works everytime.

Of course it does because believers have been made alive together with Christ (Ephesians 2:5) and saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and created, in Christ, Jesus for good works. (Ephesians 2:10) All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

This an obedient faith, Romans 16:26,
- God made known to al, nations for obedience of faith

You erroneously turn obedient faith into salvation by faith and obedience/works which "follows." (salvation by faith and works) So do Roman Catholics and other works-salvationists. In Romans 1:5, we also read - Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name.

Now although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God.

*Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience afterwards. We have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:2) not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Christ first, then "unto" obedience/works.

Galatians 5:6,
- for in Jesus Christ neither circumcision nor uncircumcision profits anything but faith working by love

Why does faith work by love? Because the love of God has been poured out in our (believers) hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5) We love God because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19) This has nothing to do with being saved by faith + obedience/works either. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

Paul's definition of profitable faith has works. Faith and works.

Good works are profitable/beneficial for men/people. Yet we are still saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) We are not saved through faith and works as you teach. This remains your Achilles heel.

 

[mailmandan]

That's correct.
Faith is never alone, James 2:24.
The faith that saves is the faith that obeys Gods commandments.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24) Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

So obedient faith is true saving Biblical faith. Romans 16:26
We are saved by grace through faith when faith is properly defined, Ephesians 2:8-9.
Never once does the Bible teach we are saved by faith alone, James 2:24.

These verses are true but your eisegesis that culminates in salvation by faith AND works is false. Faith that saves trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not in works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Keeping God's commandments afterwards is the fruit of salvation but not the root of it.

 

[mailmandan]

Jesus never taught to believe alone to be saved?

The rich young ruler

This young man with great wealth asks Jesus how to inherit eternal life.
He's asking Jesus how to be saved.
Jesus teaches the rich young ruler to be saved you must believe only on Me and you will be saved.
Heres the proof,
Matthew 19:16-
- Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, Teacher, what good work must I do to obtain eternal life
- so Jesus said to him why do you call Me good, no one is good but God, but if you want to have eternal life believe only on Me
- The rich young ruler said to Jesus, is there nothing else required of me, and Jesus said,
No, if you do not put all your faith in Me by only believing I will not save you. Only the one who has Faith alone can be saved, any man who puts trust in keeping My commandments is full of pride thinking he can save himself by doing the works of My will,
- Honor your father and mother and you shall love your neighbor as yourself but not to be saved but because you have been saved
- all these commandments I have kept the young man said, what do I lack?
- Jesus answered, If you want to be perfect, do not do anything I've commanded you in order to obtain My mercy and grace, go sell your possessions and give to the poor if you want, these things are not required of you to be saved, I only ask that you do these good works to show others you have been justified by your faith alone.
- then come follow Me if you want but it's not nessary because you have been saved and you will stay saved regardless of your good works.Trust in Me for only I can save you not your obedience to My will. Do not trust Me when I tell you to work obedience to My commandments to be saved. If you do you never were saved to begin with.
- When the young man heard this statement he went away grieving for he wanted to obey Jesus but he knew if he did Jesus would accuse him of being a works based salvationist not putting his trust in Christ alone but trusting in the works that God commanded him to obey.

Dan and Eternally Grateful,
My dear brothers in Christ.
I ask you to forgive me for my sins of teaching one must obey Jesus by doing what He says to be saved.
I've seen the error of my ways. I repented this afternoon and believed only with no obedience.
I know now I'm saved and can never be lost.
So I'm going to Nevada to gamble. Wish me luck, hopefully I'll hit it big and come home a rich man just like the rich young ruler.
Poor fool he thought he could be saved by keeping Gods commandments.
If only he truly believed in Jesus alone he could have kept all his wealth and gambled possibly doubling his bank account.
See you two in heaven.
- Titus

This is law, not grace. What is written in the LAW, Jesus asked and Jesus showed the rich young ruler how short he falls of keeping even the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37) The rich young ruler confidently and (self-righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus unto salvation (John 3:18) so he has not kept the commandments from his youth up and remained in unbelief.

The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches. (Matthew 19:21-23) He went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life. If keeping the commandments is the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - "keep the commandments and you will be saved," yet instead, Paul said - "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.."

Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young ruler the exact same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

 

[FreeInChrist]

For everyone's info....

https://cdn.bakerpublishinggroup.com/processed/esource-assets/files/1983/original/25.9.James_in_the_Christian_Canon.pdf?1525183819

Supplement to Introducing the New Testament, 2nd ed. © 2018 by Mark Allan Powell. All rights reserved.

25.9James in the Christian Canon

The Letter of James was one of the last books of the New Testament admitted to the Christian canon.

It was not listed in the MuratorianCanon of Scripture for the Western church (ca. 170–210). More than a hundred years later (ca. 311), Eusebius reported that it was still one of the disputed books, though he thought that it should be accepted because it was recognized by many, evinced an “apostolic style,” and was orthodox in its teaching.

Although no one rejected the book outright, many authorities were hesitant to allow it full canonical status until Athanasius included it in a definitive list developed around 367.

Under the influence of Athanasius and Augustine, Jerome included James in his early fifth-century translation of the Bible, the Latin Vulgate (which secured the letter's place in the canon of the Western church).

Jerome noted, however, that the book had only come to be accepted “little by little” (De virisillustribus

2). The Letter of James has been found in Christian Bibles ever since, but Martin Luther moved it to the back of his 1522German Bible in order to distinguish it from what he regarded as the more “true and certain” books of the New Testament.

The reasons why James was slow to be accepted into the canon are not clear, but several factors are possible:

• there was uncertainty about authorship Supplement to Introducing the New Testament, 2nd ed. © 2018 by Mark Allan Powell. All rights reserved

.• the book was popular among groups deemed to be heretical

• its contents may have seemed practical and generic rather than theological and specifically Christian

• parts of James (2:21–24) appeared to conflict with Paul (cf.Rom. 4:3–25; Gal. 3:6–14)

• the book has a very Jewish flavor, which probably did not help its reception in an increasingly gentile (and often ant Jewish) church

 

[mailmandan]

Yes, I must trust in Jesus alone not what He tells Me to do.
Thank you for opening my eyes to the truth.
Now let us both do nothing and be saved like the thief on the cross.

If you are not trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (John 3:16; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 etc..) then setting out to trust in anything else that He tells you to do is in vain. (John 3:18)

In regard to the thief on the cross, in Matthew 27:39-44, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests' scribes and elders blasphemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING.

Yet, moments later, we see that one of the thieves had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved. (Luke 23:40-43) Of course, he died while still hanging on the cross before having the opportunity to be water baptized or accomplish any other good works.

You mock the thief on the cross and call that do nothing salvation because you want credit for salvation for doing something, just as the Pharisee mocked the tax collector because he was confident of his own righteousness based on what he has done and looked down on others. (Luke 18:9-14) Sound familiar?

 

[FreeInChrist]

I have a question for anyone who has been debating salvation with or with out works.

Especially @mailmandan and @Titus

I have my own opinion on the subject and that will remain between God and me.

But how about both of you explaining Matt 5:18 and what that means to salvation.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

On the one hand we have the salvation by faith only folks, and on the other we have the salvation by faith plus works people.

Doesn't Matt 5:18 suggest that following God's commandments and understanding their fulfillment in Christ is relevant to salvation and good works?

I am not saying it. Jesus did.

 

[Titus]

I answered your question. Yes after salvation. No to obtain salvation.

Claims it but doesn't quote himself saying it. Exposes himself once again as being dishonest.

• the book was popular among groups deemed to be heretical

In reality any person at any time in history that claimed James' work was not the work of the Holy Spirit is the true heretic.
These men are not true Bible believers.
Just as men today claim to believe in the Bible yet reject the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

I challenge anyone to claim Paul's epistles were not Inspired? Anyone dare deny Paul's work is not God breathed?
I challenge anyone to deny that the books of the Apostle John are not Inspired? Anyone dare to make such claim?
I challenge anyone to deny that James the brother of Jesus and John taught different doctrines, which would mean they taught different gospels? Anyone dare make this claim?
I challenge anyone to claim that Apostles of God(Paul and John) would not approve of a mans work in the church of Christ and at the same time work directly with him endorsing his doctrine?

James, Paul and John all taught the doctrine of the Lord. Which is the faith. Which is the gospel.

Acts 13:7-12,
- which was with the deputy of the country Sergius Paulus a prudent man, who called for Barnabas and Saul and desired to hear the word of God(gospel)

- but Elymas the sorcerer withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from,
the faith(the gospel)

- then Saul who is also called  Paul filled with the Holy Spirit set his eyes on him
- and said, O full of all subtility and all mischief thou child of the devil thou enemy of all righteousness wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord

- and now behold the hand of the Lord is upon thee and thou shalt be blind not seeing the sun for a season and immediately there fell on him a mist and darkness and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand

- then the deputy when he saw what was done believed being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord(the gospel)

Acts 13:5,
- and when they were at Salamis they preached the word of God(the gospel) in the synagogues of the Jews and they had also  John to their minister

You must learn the word of God is the faith and the faith is the gospel of Christ. The teaching is the doctrine of Christ.
Paul and the apostle John both teach the same doctrine,gospel, faith, word of God.

There is only one gospel, therefore only one faith, therefore only one doctrine.

Ephesians 4:4-5,
- one Lord, One faith(gospel), one baptism

Acts 13:8,
- but Elymus the sorcerer withstood them seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith (gospel)

Jude 3,
- beloved when I gave all diligence unto you to write to you of the common salvation it was needful for me to write unto you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith(the gospel)

Now that we have established by scripture that the faith is the gospel and that teaching of the gospel is the one doctrine that both apostles Paul and John preached.

Let's see what John and Paul think of James' doctrine. Do they approve?

James 1:18,
- of His own will(Gods will) begat He us(James and christians like him) with,
The word of truth

James claims he is teaching the will of God.
Let's find out if John and Paul agree.

This James is the brother of Jesus. One of the first brothers in Christ to be martyred.
Acts 12:1:2,
- now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church
- and he killed James the brother of John(apostle) with the sword

Now we have established the apostle John and James are brothers by birth.
James is dead. James is a member of the church of Christ.

Now let's hear what Paul has to say about James the brother of John.

Galatians 1:19,
- but other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lords brother
James was the half brother of Jesus and John.

Galatians 2:8-9,
- for he that Wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship, of the circumcision the same was mighty in me(Paul) toward the gentiles
- and when  James, Cephas and John who seemed to be PILLARS perceived the grace that was given unto me and Barnabas THE RIGHT HANDS OF FELLOWSHIP that we(Paul and Barnabas) unto the heathen and they(James, Cephas, John) unto the circumcision

I encourage you to read all of Galatians chapter 1 and 2.

Now Paul calls James a pillar in the church along with John.
Pillar: literal a strong supporting column that holds up a building.
Figurative: a key foundational leader. One who supports holds up the church.

Question?
Does Paul speak of James in the negative or the positive?
Does Paul give any indication that James is a wolf among sheep in the Lords church?
Or does Paul approve and endorse James as one of the pillars leaders in the Lords church.
I'll let the scriptures speak for themselves.

Notice who is going to the circumcision with James? That would be the apostle John.
Would John and Paul fellowship with James if he taught another doctrine that was not their own?
I think these questions are too obvious not to understand what the apostles think of James and his teaching/doctrine.

Again I'll let the Apostles speak for themselves. Let's listen to what the apostle John has to say about fellowshipping with someone who does not teach the doctrine of Christ,
2 John 9:19-11,
- whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ hath not God
He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ he hath both the Father and the Son
- if there come unto you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Godspeed
- for he(includes John and Paul) that bideth him Godspeed is a partaker of his evil deeds(works)

Do you remember Paul and John having fellowship with James in Galatians 2?
Even going on missionary trips with James to preach this one doctrine of Christ His gospel?

Romans 16:17,
- now I beseech you brethren mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned and avoid them

Conclusion:
To be blunt.
I could care less what these men have to say about James and his epistle.
I'll take Gods Holy Apostles word everytime over heretics that deny the pillar in the church whom God approves!!!