Jesus the Man Before John !

[brightfame52]

That the Lord Jesus Christ was a Man before the incarnation and birth out of the virgin Mary, is seen when we carefully weigh the words of John the Baptist here Jn 1:29-31

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Now notice in Vs 30 the phrase "After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me."

The object here is a man, and John states these 3 things about this particular man, That this man comes after him, and is preferred before him, and he [the man] was before him !

Now we know from other scripture that John the Baptist in regards to his physical birth by his Mother, that he is six months older than Jesus and so , in that regard John is not speaking of. Lk 1:34-36

34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

But John does acknowledge that Jesus Christ was a Man before Him.

In fact, when John said the he was preferred before him, that word is the greek word ginomai and means:

I.
to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being

II.
to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen

John knew that The Man Jesus Christ was that Man of God's Right Hand, the Son of Man Ps 80:17

17 Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.

Also in connection with that, John knew that Christ, the Man coming as a Bridegroom for His Bride Jn 3:29

He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

Now Jesus was the Man Christ Jesus, the Mediator between God and Men before the foundation 1 Tim 2:5

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Now for this to be True, Adam , who was the beginning of Men, had to have the Man Christ Jesus as the Mediator between God and Men !

 

[brightfame52]

The Lord Jesus Christ in His Mediator Being 1 Tim 2:5 as the Son of God, did delight in the sons of men [the Election of Grace] before the Creation of the World Prov 8:31

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

I believe this is linked to Pauls comment here Acts 17:26

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

The places and times of the Elect of God had been predetermined, where they would make their dwellings and the time in Human History.

Again, who are these Sons of Men in particular in Prov 8:31 ? We have stated before they are the Elect, but they also are His Members, the Church, in fact they are the members of the Church of the Firstborn which are written in Heaven Heb 12:23

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The Lord Jesus Christ before all things, existed as the Firstborn of the Church Col 1:17-18

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

What's the Firstborn from the Dead ? This denotes His Resurrection from the dead, but not literally, for He had not yet came into the World, for it was not yet Created, and died, however, Just as He was in the Eternal Purpose slain from the foundation of the World 1 Pet 1:20, Rev 13:8 He was also from the Eternal Purpose the Firstborn from the Dead before all Creation, and the Head of the Church before all Creation.

These are the Ones the Father Loved, Chose them in His Beloved Son, they were gave to Him, those whom He was appointed Surety and Head in behalf of in the Everlasting Covenant. They are those whose Names were Written in the Lambs Book of Life, as His Bride, before the Foundation, that's why He delighted in them Prov 8:31

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

His delight was for them as a Bridegroom for His Bride Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Remember also this Mystery Eph 5:31-32

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Who has more of the Love, tender passionate affection from a Man than His Wife ? Whom more in the Providence of God does God provide for a Mans delight ? Prov 5:18-19

18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.

19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.

Its those He delighted in and Purposed to bring to Glory with Him Heb 2:10

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

 

[civic]

The most heretical false teaching of all denying the uniqueness of the Incarnation. The Son became a man , flesh John 1:14.

 

[brightfame52]

We know that Christ existed First as the Last Adam or Heavenly Man, and that adam the earthy was made after His Image and Likeness, he was patterned after Him who was in Heaven, for that's a Divine principle. Now there is the Adam earthy and Heavenly as per 1 Cor 15:45-49

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Now please notice verses 46-47 Adam first is natural and earthy and the Last Adam is Spiritual and Heavenly [see Jesus words Jn 8:23 ]

Now Christ is the Creator of Adam earthy Col 1:16

16 For by him [Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him[Christ]:

Now lets look at how we derive this principle of the earthy being patterned after the heavenly Heb 8:4-5

4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Adam was a shadow, a figure of heavenly things !

Heb 9:23-24

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

And then Paul tells us that Adam was the earthy figure of Him [Christ] to come Rom 5:14

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

This does confirm what is indicated, that the earthy adam was Created by the Heaveny God Man Mediator Christ Jesus, after His Image and Likeness Gen 1:26, for this must be if we follow the rule of pattern laid down in Heb 8:4-5;9:23-24

And that in all things Christ has the preeminence Col 1:18

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Now that would not be true if adam from the ground was a Man before Christ the Mediator !

 

[civic]

We know that Christ existed First as the Last Adam or Heavenly Man, and that adam the earthy was made after His Image and Likeness, he was patterned after Him who was in Heaven, for that's a Divine principle. Now there is the Adam earthy and Heavenly as per 1 Cor 15:45-49



Now please notice verses 46-47 Adam first is natural and earthy and the Last Adam is Spiritual and Heavenly [see Jesus words Jn 8:23 ]

Now Christ is the Creator of Adam earthy Col 1:16

16 For by him [Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him[Christ]:

Now lets look at how we derive this principle of the earthy being patterned after the heavenly Heb 8:4-5

4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Adam was a shadow, a figure of heavenly things !

Heb 9:23-24

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

And then Paul tells us that Adam was the earthy figure of Him [Christ] to come Rom 5:14

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

This does confirm what is indicated, that the earthy adam was Created by the Heaveny God Man Mediator Christ Jesus, after His Image and Likeness Gen 1:26, for this must be if we follow the rule of pattern laid down in Heb 8:4-5;9:23-24

And that in all things Christ has the preeminence Col 1:18

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Now that would not be true if adam from the ground was a Man before Christ the Mediator !

It’s heresy to say God was a man prior to His conception by the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary.

Not only a false gospel but a false Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

It’s heresy to say God was a man prior to His conception by the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary.

Not only a false gospel but a false Christ.

So you dont believe Jesus Christ in His pre incarnate existence was the Man Mediator between God and Men 1 Tim2:5

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

In Genesis ? Adam didnt have a Mediator at Creation ?

 

[civic]

So you dont believe Jesus Christ in His pre incarnate existence was the Man Mediator between God and Men 1 Tim2:5

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

In Genesis ? Adam didnt have a Mediator at Creation ?

no He became a man at His Incarnation. you are teaching a false christ/Christology.

 

[brightfame52]

no He became a man at His Incarnation. you are teaching a false christ/Christology.

Okay so you don't believe that the Old Testament Saints had a Mediator. Jesus Christ wasn't the way to God Jn 14:6 in Ot

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[civic]

Okay so you don't believe that the Old Testament Saints had a Mediator. Jesus Christ wasn't the way to God Jn 14:6 in Ot

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

He was not human in the OT.

 

[brightfame52]

He was not human in the OT.

I didn't ask you that

 

[brightfame52]

He was not human in the OT.

You obviously deny that he was the mediator in heaven of the Old testament saints not good

 

[Bob Carabbio]

That the Lord Jesus Christ was a Man before the incarnation and birth out of the virgin Mary, is seen when we carefully weigh the words of John the Baptist here Jn 1:29-31

Chuckle!!!! And of course you've got to play the "Word games" properly - nothing more. "Theology" - you gotta love it!!!

 

[brightfame52]

Chuckle!!!! And of course you've got to play the "Word games" properly - nothing more. "Theology" - you gotta love it!!!

No word games friend.

 

[civic]

No word games friend.

Just aberrant theology

 

[civic]

You obviously deny that he was the mediator in heaven of the Old testament saints not good

The Son was ot the High Priest, Prophet or the Mediator who was a man in the OT. He became them in the N.T. Try reading and believing the entire book of Hebrews that expalins those offices. Heb 9:15;12:24- He became the Mediator of the New Covenant, not the O.C.

Hebrews 7:22
By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 12:24
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

next..............................

hope this helps !!!

 

[Peterlag]

That the Lord Jesus Christ was a Man before the incarnation and birth out of the virgin Mary, is seen when we carefully weigh the words of John the Baptist here Jn 1:29-31

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Now notice in Vs 30 the phrase "After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me."

The object here is a man, and John states these 3 things about this particular man, That this man comes after him, and is preferred before him, and he [the man] was before him !

Now we know from other scripture that John the Baptist in regards to his physical birth by his Mother, that he is six months older than Jesus and so , in that regard John is not speaking of. Lk 1:34-36

34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

But John does acknowledge that Jesus Christ was a Man before Him.

In fact, when John said the he was preferred before him, that word is the greek word ginomai and means:

I.
to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being

II.
to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen

John knew that The Man Jesus Christ was that Man of God's Right Hand, the Son of Man Ps 80:17

17 Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.

Also in connection with that, John knew that Christ, the Man coming as a Bridegroom for His Bride Jn 3:29

He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

Now Jesus was the Man Christ Jesus, the Mediator between God and Men before the foundation 1 Tim 2:5

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Now for this to be True, Adam , who was the beginning of Men, had to have the Man Christ Jesus as the Mediator between God and Men !

What John was saying is the whole concept of the gospel of God is about Christ which was on the planning board before I was brought about to announce him. It does not mean anything else.

 

[brightfame52]

What John was saying is the whole concept of the gospel of God is about Christ which was on the planning board before I was brought about to announce him. It does not mean anything else.

Thats your opinion and you are welcome to it.

 

[brightfame52]

Was the Man Christ Jesus Created ?

Was Christ Jesus the Man Mediator Created ? The answer is absolutely Yes,He was Created or we can say He was begotten, that He did have a derived Existence. Now, I already know my enemies are going to use this what i am about to say against me, and claim by it that I deny the Deity of Christ or that He is God, but by no means do i deny that, because Jesus is also 100 % Very God as much as the Father, and within the Divine Essence of the Godhead He as the Father has a underived, uncreated, unbegotten, Self Existence along with the The Holy Ghost as well !

However, there is yet another part of His Being that was Created or derived an Existence out of the Father, hence He has titles like Col 1:15

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

The word firstborn is the greek word prōtotokos and means:

I.the firstborn
A.
of man or beast

B.
of Christ, the first born of all creation

first-born, eldest.

Now the word is actually Two words #1 prōtos which means:

I.
first in time or place
A.
in any succession of things or persons


II.
first in rank
A.
influence, honour

B.
chief

C.
principal


III.
first, at the first

This is why He said to be before all things Col 1:17

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

He existed as God's Creation before all other things that would be Created !

The other word #2 is tiktō and means:

I.to bring forth, bear, produce (fruit from the seed)
A.
of a woman giving birth

B.
of the earth bringing forth its fruits

C.
metaph. to bear, bring forth

He was the very first produced, brought forth !

The word produce itself denotes Creation, for our english dictionary defines it as:

to create, bring forth, or yield offspring, products,

And finally He is said to be the firstborn of every creature, the word creature being the greek word ktisis and means:

I.the act of founding, establishing, building etc
A.
the act of creating, creation

B.
creation i.e. thing created
i.
of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation
a.
anything created

So this verse in Col 1:15 is evidence that in some capacity the Lord Jesus Christ was Created before all things else were Created.

Another verse that collaborates this thought is Rev 3:14

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Its plain and simple that He is Identifying Himself as the Beginning of the Creation of God, or the Firstborn of Every Creature as in Col 1:15 !

 

[brightfame52]

Was Jesus Christ Created ?2


Now when was Jesus Christ Created and why ? The Lord Jesus Christ was Created before the World began, in order to partake in the Creation of the World, for again, it was made by Him and for Him Col 1:16.

We find that Jesus Christ was Created here Prov 8:22

22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

First I will say that this is Christ the Wisdom of God speaking 1 Cor 1:24

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

And He says the Lord possessed Him in the beginning of His Way, the word possessed here giving us the first hint of Him being a Creation, for its the hebrew word qanah :

get, acquire, create, buy, possess
A.
(Qal)
i.
to get, acquire, obtain
a.
of God originating, creating, redeeming His people

The NIV reads:

"The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;

Thats quite similar to Him being the Firstborn of Creation Col 1:15 where the word firstborn is made up of two greek words, one being tiktō which means:

I.to bring forth, bear, produce (fruit from the seed)
A.
of a woman giving birth

B.
of the earth bringing forth its fruits

C.
metaph. to bear, bring forth

The Holman Christian Standard Bible reads:

The LORD made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago.

The ISV reads:

"The LORD made me as he began his planning, before his ancient activity commenced.

The NET reads:

The LORD created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago.

The Aramaic Bible in Plain English reads:

“Lord Jehovah created me at the beginning of his creation and from before all of his works.”

The Septuagint reads :

The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works.

This is crucial because it establishes the fact that He was Created before all Things to assist in the Work of Creation !

Now I am going to make this point clear, this Character of Jesus Christ being Created, was not His Deity as God, I repeat this has nothing to do with His Being as the Uncreated Word of God Jn 1:1 which is His Deity as God, but this only has to do with His Begotten Sonship and the Mediator Man 1 Tim 2:5 and as the Last Adam and the Head of His Body the Church 1 Cor 15:45-47

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

In this character He was Created with His Bride the Church in Him Col 1:18

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

And that is why when He Created Adam in His Image and Likeness, Adam was Created with His Bride in him, which was Eve, and called their Name Adam Gen 5:1-2

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Thats why Adam was the Head of his wife, even so as it pictured that Christ in Heaven was Created as the Head of His Wife the Church and called Christ !

Hence as there was No Adam without Eve in him, Neither was there No Christ without the Church, His Eve in Him !

I already know this is a Truth that will not be received by the natural man, for it cannot be !

 

[brightfame52]

Not only was Christ Jesus the Man before John the Baptist Jn 1:30

This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

But He was the OT figure the Angel of the Lord as well as Michael the Great Prince Dan 12:1

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

I also believe that the Angel here is Christ, Michael the Arch Angel Rev 10:1-6

And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: See Vision of Christ here Matt 17:2

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,

6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

I believe, the Lord Jesus Christ, Michael and the Angel of the Covenant are the Same Judges 2:1

And an angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.

The Messenger of the Covenant Mal 3:1

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

I believe this Angel is Michael, Christ Gen 48:16

The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

No ordinary Angel could do this, redeem a man from all Evil, Gill writes :

The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads,.... Ephraim and Manasseh, now about twenty years old or upwards: this is not to be understood of a created angel he wishes to be their guardian, but of an eternal one, the Son of God, the Angel of God's presence, the Angel of the covenant; the same with the God of his father before mentioned, as appears by the character he gives him, as having "redeemed him from all evil"; not only protected and preserved him from temporal evils and imminent dangers from Esau, Laban, and others; but had delivered him from the power, guilt, and punishment of sin, the greatest of evils, and from the dominion and tyranny of Satan the evil one, and from everlasting wrath, ruin, and damnation; all which none but a divine Person could do, as well as he wishes, desires, and prays, that he would "bless" the lads with blessings temporal and spiritual, which a created angel cannot do; and Jacob would never have asked it of him:

I believe Jacob had an Eye to the Death of the Messiah whom Paul writes Gal 1:4

4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 2