Runningman
Well-known member
You believe God is in the visible form of a dove? I believe the dove is symbolic of the anointing Jesus received, but God looking like a dove is out of the question.
Before Abraham I am
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civic
Well-known member
no He is all over the O.T. in person talking with the prophets ands appearing before them as YHWH.
no man has seen the Father or heard His voice.
your view makes Jesus a liar.
Here are the undeniable facts according to Jesus.
1- Who's voice did the OT prophets hear that is called YHWH ?
2-Who did the OT prophets/saints see in the OT who was called YHWH ?
3- Jesus said it was not the Father
John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,
John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Timothy 1:17
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 6:13-16
I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time — God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
1 John 4:12
12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
A theophany is a manifestation of God in the Bible that is tangible to the human senses. In its most restrictive sense, it is a visible appearance of God in the Old Testament period, often, but not always, in human form. Some of the theophanies are found in these passages:
1. Genesis 12:7-9 – The Lord appeared to Abraham on his arrival in the land God had promised to him and his descendants.
2. Genesis 18:1-33 – One day, Abraham had some visitors: two angels and God Himself. He invited them to come to his home, and he and Sarah entertained them. Many commentators believe this could also be a Christophany, a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ.
3. Genesis 32:22-30 – Jacob wrestled with what appeared to be a man, but was actually God (vv. 28-30). This may also have been a Christophany.
4. Exodus 3:2 - 4:17 – God appeared to Moses in the form of a burning bush, telling him exactly what He wanted him to do.
5. Exodus 24:9-11 – God appeared to Moses with Aaron and his sons and the seventy elders.
6. Deuteronomy 31:14-15 – God appeared to Moses and Joshua in the transfer of leadership to Joshua.
7. Job 38–42 – God answered Job out of the tempest and spoke at great length in answer to Job’s questions.
Frequently, the term “glory of the Lord” reflects a theophany, as in Exodus 24:16-18; the “pillar of cloud” has a similar function in Exodus 33:9. A frequent introduction for theophanies may be seen in the words “the Lord came down,” as in Genesis 11:5; Exodus 34:5; Numbers 11:25; and 12:5.
Some Bible commentators believe that whenever someone received a visit from “the angel of the Lord,” this was in fact the pre-incarnate Christ. These appearances can be seen in Genesis 16:7-14; Genesis 22:11-18; Judges 5:23; 2 Kings 19:35; and other passages. Other commentators believe these were in fact angelophanies, or appearances of angels. While there are no indisputable Christophanies in the Old Testament, every theophany wherein God takes on human form foreshadows the incarnation, where God took the form of a man to live among us as Emmanuel, “God with us” (Matthew 1:23). got?
conclusion: it was not the Father who was seen and heard in the O.T but it was the Son who is called YHWH. We clearly see this is the case with Isaiah as John tells us it was the Son whom was seen and heard by Isaiah, not the Father.
In Isaiah 6:1–13, Isaiah has a vision of “the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne” (verse 1). There are seraphim present, and even they cover their faces in God’s presence (verse 2). Isaiah’s immediate reaction is fear due to his sin: “Woe to me!” he cries. “I am ruined! . . . My eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty” (verse 5). (cf. John 12:41). Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.
hope this helps !!!
MTMattie
Active member
Your bible is false.
But I am sure you did not even bother to read what I sent you.
Runningman
Well-known member
Jesus is visible. He was also seen by Stephen in Acts 7 and John in Revelation. Every eye will see him when he returns to earth. There goes your proof that Jesus is not the invisible God. Check and mate.
1 Corinthians 15 (NIV)
6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
Revelation 1 (NIV)
7“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
Colossians 1 (NIV)
15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Timothy 1 (NIV)
17Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Runningman
Well-known member
The post about the NIV? I agree with you mostly. Every Bible can be criticized though. Which Bible is not false according to you?
civic
Well-known member
Thanks you are making my point for me.
Runningman
Well-known member
So you finally confess Jesus isn't God then? That was my point. Now you are saying it's your point.
civic
Well-known member
Nope that’s your fallacy
It is simply amazing about runningman's ability to run from the obvious points in scripture.
No one says that Mike is the image of the invisible God as shared in Col 1:15.
Sorry no matter how you translate ἐξ ἡμερῶν αἰῶνος
He existed before even the writing of Micah that is pre-existence
so there is your first error
your second is Jesus did not become sin rather he was a sin offering
Verse 21. For he hath made him to be sin for us] Τον μη γνοντα ἁμαρτιαν, ὑπερ ἡμων ἁμαρτιαν εποιησεν· He made him who knew no sin, (who was innocent,) a sin-offering for us. The word ἁμαρτια occurs here twice: in the first place it means sin, i. e. transgression and guilt; and of Christ it is said, He knew no sin, i. e. was innocent; for nut to know sin is the same as to be conscious of innocence; so, nil conscire sibi, to be conscious of nothing against one’s self, is the same as nulla pallescere culpa, to be unimpeachable.
In the second place, it signifies a sin-offering, or sacrifice for sin, and answers to the חטאה chattaah and חטאת chattath of the Hebrew text; which signifies both sin and sin-offering in a great variety of places in the Pentateuch. The Septuagint translate the Hebrew word by ἁμαρτια in ninety-four places in Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, where a sin-offering is meant; and where our version translates the word not sin, but an offering for sin. Had our translators attended to their own method of translating the word in other places where it means the same as here, they would not have given this false view of a passage which has been made the foundation of a most blasphemous doctrine; viz. that our sins were imputed to Christ, and that he was a proper object of the indignation of Divine justice, because he was blackened with imputed sin;
Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes (vol. 6, New Edition.; Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation, 2014), 338.
If Christ became the embodiment of sin How could it be stated
Hebrews 9:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
1 Peter 1:19 (KJV 1900) — 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Hebrews 7:26 (KJV 1900) — 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Are you saying scripture is not a witness?
That would explain much of your denials
But Jesus is both God and man and as man he could die
He was a sin offering and was not literally reconstituted as sin.
Runningman
Well-known member
Then don't say I am making your point for you unless you're agreeing with me. My point will always be what the Scripture teaches on this topic.
civic
Well-known member
Projecting as my point will Always be on point with Jesus teaching
Runningman
Well-known member
It's not proof of Jesus pre-existing. There is none. Look at some of the verses you use for your prooftexts and then compare them to the old testament.
"In the beginning was the Word..." Now look at Genesis 1. There is no one there named the Word saying or doing anything.
"We should not test Christ, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes." Now go back to the Old Testament again and there is no one there named Christ destroying people with snakes. It says YHWH sent snakes in Numbers 21:6 then verses like Psalm 110:1 and Psalm 2:7 prove Jesus is not YHWH.
You have proved nothing. You can't.
Runningman
Well-known member
Clearly you have missed something major. You think a human is God and Creator. Laughable. You won't hear sense and reason on this.
Sorry but there is much evidence for his pre-existence. You simply baldly deny scripture
Micah 5:1–2 (NASB 2020) — 1 “Now muster yourselves in troops, daughter of troops; They have laid siege against us; With a rod they will strike the judge of Israel on the cheek. 2 “But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will come forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His times of coming forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.”
John 1:1–3 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
Genesis 1:26 (NASB 2020) — 26 Then God (plural) said, “Let Us make mankind in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the livestock and over all the earth, and over every crawling thing that crawls on the earth.”
Colossians 1:15–17 (NASB 2020) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: 16 for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Hebrews 1:8–11 (NASB 2020) — 8 But regarding the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE SCEPTER OF RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF JOY ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL WEAR OUT LIKE A GARMENT,
And if the old testament says YHWH sent snakes and the New Testament says it was Christ then Christ is YHWH just like the word of YHWH and the messenger of his presense is YHWH
Isaiah 63:9–10 (NASB 2020) — 9 In all their distress He was distressed, And the angel of His presence saved them; In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them, And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old. 10 But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them.
You are simply a bible denier who reject all scripture which disagrees with your religion
Johann
Well-known member
In John 1:1–3, the opening phrase “In the beginning was the Word” directly echoes Genesis 1:1, and John deliberately connects his gospel to the act of creation. The Greek term “Logos” (Word) here is not simply a reference to spoken words but a theological term indicating the active, divine agent through whom God creates. John 1:3 states, “All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.” This description parallels Genesis 1, where God’s word brings creation into existence.
Though Genesis does not specifically mention “the Word” as a distinct person at the time, John 1 reveals that the Word was with God and was God from the beginning. This revelation implies that the Word—Jesus—was present in the creation act, in unity with the Father, making Him co-eternal and fully divine.
1 Corinthians 10:9 and the Wilderness Testing
In 1 Corinthians 10:9, Paul admonishes the Corinthians, “We should not test Christ, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes.” This passage refers to Numbers 21:6, where YHWH sends snakes among the Israelites.
Paul’s statement suggests that Christ was indeed the one they tested, implying that Jesus was involved in the experiences of Israel in the wilderness, an action directly attributed to YHWH.
This statement illustrates Paul’s understanding of Jesus as YHWH in the Old Testament. He saw the preexistent Christ as being active in Israel’s history, indicating that Christ shares in the identity and actions of YHWH.
Psalm 110:1 and Psalm 2:7: Distinction without Division
Psalm 110:1 states, “The LORD said to my Lord, ‘Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool.’” This verse presents a distinction between YHWH (the Father) and the Adonai (Lord) whom David acknowledges as his master.
Jesus identifies Himself as this “Lord” in Matthew 22:44–46, indicating His unique messianic identity as distinct from yet sharing in the authority and honor of YHWH. Psalm 2:7, likewise, refers to the Messiah as the “Son,” but it does not deny His divinity. Instead, it emphasizes the role of the Messiah as God’s appointed Son, signifying relational distinction rather than ontological inferiority.
Isaiah 9:6 and John 8:58: The Divine Titles of Jesus
In Isaiah 9:6, a prophecy of the coming Messiah, titles like “Mighty God” and “Everlasting Father” are applied to the coming child, who Christians believe is Jesus. These titles indicate that the Messiah shares the divine nature. Moreover, Jesus’ statement in John 8:58, “Before Abraham was, I AM,” directly references the divine name revealed to Moses in Exodus 3:14, “I AM WHO I AM.” The Jewish audience’s reaction—picking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy—shows they understood Jesus’ claim to be none other than YHWH Himself.
While there is a distinction in roles between the Father and the Son, the New Testament writers reveal Jesus as fully embodying the divine identity of YHWH. They were careful to present Jesus as one with the Father (John 10:30) yet distinct in person, allowing for the relational dynamics within the Godhead. Jesus is thus revealed as YHWH incarnate, not merely by title but by participating fully in God’s identity, authority, and works throughout both Testaments. This belief, while paradoxical, is foundational to Christian understanding and worship of Jesus as Lord and God.
J.
Yes many years ago a Jewish guy told me about Yahweh Kabod (the glory of the Lord)
THE KABOD YHWH
https://www.thetriunityofgod.com/kabod
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civic
Well-known member
Thanks I will check it out.
