civic
Well-known member
He was not human when He created everything in the universe including the angels.
Your response is laughable I agree.
next fallacy
Before Abraham I am
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
Your response is laughable I agree.
next fallacy
You are welcome
MTMattie
Active member
@Runningman said:
Clearly you have missed something major. You think a human is God and Creator. Laughable. You won't hear sense and reason on this.
What's that you ask.
Insanity
Einstein said "
How does it apply here?
The reptation of same old same old to prove something is false when it has been proven it is right.
It is certain that non of the pre-Trin people on here will ever agree that in the beginning there was a word.
They fully ignore the words Let us make..... in our
I am just waiting for one to make the statement that God was using the "Royal" we.
But the truly scary part is they do not seem to think God capable of being three,,,, or that one of the 3 came to save us.
Clearly you have missed something major. You think a human is God and Creator. Laughable. You won't hear sense and reason on this.
You know what is truly frightening is that we are witnessing a form of the definition of insanity.
What's that you ask.
Insanity
Einstein said "
Insanity Is Doing the Same Thing Over and Over Again and Expecting Different Results
How does it apply here?
The reptation of same old same old to prove something is false when it has been proven it is right.
It is certain that non of the pre-Trin people on here will ever agree that in the beginning there was a word.
They fully ignore the words Let us make..... in our
I am just waiting for one to make the statement that God was using the "Royal" we.
But the truly scary part is they do not seem to think God capable of being three,,,, or that one of the 3 came to save us.
Runningman
Well-known member
This proves that Jesus is not an eternal being since it refers to that person having an origin or beginning in the LXX and Hebrew language.
This also proves the Word is not the Creator. Verse 3 uses the pronoun "him" which refers to the previously mentioned noun, which would be the God the Word was with. Therefore the Word is not the Creator.
False witness of Scripture. Nothing about Jesus or the Word being one of the "Us." This refers to the divine council with God.
Psalm 89 (NIV)
5The heavens praise your wonders, Lord,
your faithfulness too, in the assembly of the holy ones.
6For who in the skies above can compare with the Lord?
Who is like the Lord among the heavenly beings?
7In the council of the holy ones God is greatly feared;
he is more awesome than all who surround him.
8Who is like you, Lord God Almighty?
You, Lord, are mighty, and your faithfulness surrounds you.
This context refers to Jesus being a human in the image of the invisible God. God didn't create literally all things through a human and even if he did this passage proves Jesus is not the Creator, but rather the instrument. The context refers to all things in the church, hence God did reconcile all things to Himself until Jesus shed his blood on the cross.
This proves that Jesus is not God as well since the original context from Psalm 45 is about a human with a queen being called god. The human king is obviously not Jesus in Psalm 45, hence he has a queen who's beauty he sought after. The word for "god" taken from the original context refers to a ruler or judge, but not God Almighty. Elohim in Scripture are sons of the Most High, not the Most High (see Psalm 82:6)
However, God Almighty did anoint the son of the Most High. This proves that in Hebrews 1:10 that Jesus is not the Creator, YHWH.
Or it's a bad translation which is proven by the Old Testament. The original reading of 1 Cor. 10:9 says "the Lord" not Christ. Many scholars have refuted you on this point. You have already read them because I showed you. You are simply in bald-faced obstinate denial of facts.
1 Cor. 10 (NASB)
9Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
So you believe Jesus is an angel? You sound like a JW now. Are you a JW?
That's what you are.
Runningman
Well-known member
There is not Word with God in Genesis 1 aside from God's spoken words which would be a thing, not a person. God's spoken words are not a person in Scripture.
"The beginning" in John 1 would be referring to the beginning of the context of the ministry of Jesus. For a clue about this, check 1 John 1:1-3 where what was "from the beginning" is the Word of life, or eternal life, and it's a thing. It was revealed by Jesus which would have placed him at around the age of 30 years old, the time he began his ministry.
It's required to mention the Word as a distinct person or there isn't a person there. Argument from silence is generally considered a fallacy so better to think of the "Word" in John 1:1 as personification or poetry. There is good precedent for non-person things like words or wisdom being referred to with the qualities of a person with the reader generally understanding that words are not a real person.
The earliest versions of this verse say "the Lord" and not "Christ."
These verses place YHWH and Jesus beside each other in the same sentence. They clearly aren't the same person. Means Jesus isn't God.
Matthew 22:44-46 proves Jesus isn't God again. The Lord God is the Father as Jesus stated in Matthew 11:25. Acts 17:24,25 proves that God is the creator, Lord of heaven and earth. Jesus is never called "The Lord of heaven and earth" in Scripture.
The LXX and CJB are better translations of Isaiah 9:6.
Isaiah 9 (Brenton's Septuagint Translation)
6For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.
Yeshayahu (Isaiah) - Chapter 9
5For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."
And did you check Isaiah 9:7? It says "The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." which would mean the one in Isaiah 9:6 is not the LORD (YHWH).
Acts 3:13 identifies Jesus as the servant or son of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Means they aren't the same person. Therefore Jesus is not the I AM in Exodus 3:14,15. You're misunderstanding John 8:58 as a claim to something Jesus never said he was. He didn't say "I am the I AM."
No. Jesus only ever taught us Christians about worshipping the Father in spirit and truth.
John 4 (KJV)
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Runningman
Well-known member
You believe in fairy tales and myths. Which verse says Jesus was the creator?
Johann
Well-known member
I genuinely appreciate our discussions- However, some others have interjected with sharp, unkind remarks, which disrupts the spirit of edification we aim for in these exchanges. Old habits are hard to break, and I know this isn’t coming from you.
J.
No. No matter what translation you use this shows his pre-existence. A point you deny and do not address
Further as most of the translations show this is from eternity
Micah 5:1–2 (NASB 2020) — 1 “Now muster yourselves in troops, daughter of troops; They have laid siege against us; With a rod they will strike the judge of Israel on the cheek. 2 “But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will come forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His times of coming forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.”
which would make him uncreated
So you are selective in which translation and which part of the verse you will heed
And your refusal to deal with the point of pre-existence shows you run away from texts which contradict your theology
Sorry no
The Greek literal word order is
........God was the word. He was in the beginning with God all things were made by him
He refers back to the word
You were told this previously but you just ignore it
Sorry No, the divine council has no creative power
God alone creates.
Isaiah 44:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, And he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; That stretcheth forth the heavens alone; That spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
LOL it does no such thing and does not even mention him
These do
Hebrews 1:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Colossians 1:15 (KJV 1900) — 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Philippians 2:5–6 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
This states otherwise
Hebrews 1:8–10 (KJV 1900) — 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
and
Hebrews 1:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
No it doesn't and you just ignore the text
Hebrews 1:8–10 (KJV 1900) — 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
that comes from
Psalm 102:25–27 (LEB) — 25 Long ago you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. 26 They will perish, but you will endure. And like a garment they will all wear out, you will replace them like clothing, and they will be set aside. 27 But you are the same, and your years do not end.
which speaks of YHWH not an earthly king
Sorry you have no proof of that
The majority of texts read Christ
Christ is called by Paul the only lord
verse 4 reads Christ in all texts
1 Corinthians 10:4 (LEB) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.
and Jude
Jude 4–5 (LEB) — 4 For certain men have slipped in stealthily, who were designated long ago for this condemnation, ungodly ones, who change the grace of our God into licentiousness and who deny our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ. 5 Now I want to remind you, although you know everything once and for all, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those who did not believe.
after stating Christ was the only Lord
Notes it was Christ who saved and then fought against those who did not believe
so these all confirm a reading of Christ
An angel is a messenger. It need not be a created spiritual being
BTW there is an angel of the Lord who is called God, Yahweh. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
Exodus 3:2–6 (LEB) — 2 And the angel of Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush, and he looked, and there was the bush burning with fire, but the bush was not being consumed. 3 And Moses said, “Let me turn aside and see this great sight. Why does the bush not burn up?” 4 And Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, and God called to him from the midst of the bush, and he said, “Moses, Moses.” And he said, “Here I am.” 5 And he said, “You must not come near to here. Take off your sandals from on your feet, because the place on which you are standing, it is holy ground.” 6 And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face because he was afraid of looking at God.
And if you think I am a JW you are more ignorant than I thought you were
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Johann
Well-known member
Maybe you can help-
וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, נַֽעֲשֶׂה אָדָם בְּצַלְמֵנוּ כִּדְמוּתֵנוּ; וְיִרְדּוּ בִדְגַת הַיָּם וּבְעוֹף הַשָּׁמַיִם וּבַבְּהֵמָה, וּבְכָל-הָאָרֶץ, וּבְכָל-הָרֶמֶשׂ, הָרֹמֵשׂ עַל-הָאָרֶץ.
Who is this referring to?
Root of the Word
The root of נַֽעֲשֶׂה is עָשָׂה (asah), a common verb in Biblical Hebrew that means "to make," "to do," "to create," or "to act." It often appears in contexts related to both divine and human actions of creating, building, or performing.
This root, עָשָׂה, appears frequently in Genesis, particularly in connection with God’s creative acts (e.g., Genesis 1:7, Genesis 2:2).
2. Form and Structure
נַֽעֲשֶׂה (na'aseh) is in the first-person plural imperfect form. This structure in Hebrew conveys an action that is ongoing or uncompleted, fitting with "Let us make" as a forward-looking statement.
The plural form, נַֽעֲשֶׂה, reflects a deliberative, collaborative aspect and is often the subject of theological debate regarding whom God is addressing. This form suggests plurality but does not necessarily imply polytheism in Hebrew thought. Many traditional interpretations see it as a reference to divine self-consultation or, as some Christian readings interpret, a prefiguring of the Trinity.
3. Pronunciation and Morphology
נַֽעֲשֶׂה is pronounced na'aseh, where:
נַ (na-) is the prefix associated with the first-person plural, indicating "we" or "let us."
עֲשֶׂה (aseh) comes from the root עָשָׂה (asah), which retains the core meaning of "to make" or "to do."
This construction combines the prefix with the root to mean "we will make" or "let us make."
4. Historical Usage and Semantics
In ancient Hebrew literature, עָשָׂה often emphasizes a purposeful, crafted action. When applied to God's acts, it suggests intentionality and deliberate creativity. This is evident throughout the creation narrative in Genesis, where God makes and forms the universe.
The plural נַֽעֲשֶׂה has traditionally been interpreted by Jewish scholars as God speaking within a divine framework, perhaps involving heavenly hosts as witnesses or simply a way of expressing His own majesty. In contrast, some Christian interpretations see this as a conversation within the Godhead, particularly between the Father and the pre-incarnate Christ.
5. Theological Implications
נַֽעֲשֶׂה represents more than a grammatical form; it also raises questions of unity, agency, and authority in creation. In Christian theology, it can be seen as an early indicator of relationality within God, as understood in Trinitarian doctrine.
Jewish exegesis often treats this word as a rhetorical plural or as God’s royal or majestic mode of speech, not necessarily implying multiple divine persons but rather emphasizing God’s supreme authority and the gravity of the creative act.
In summary, נַֽעֲשֶׂה (na'aseh) is a plural, first-person form meaning "let us make," rooted in עָשָׂה (asah), and reflects a purposeful act of creation that has theological implications for both Jewish and Christian interpretations. It expresses both divine intentionality in creation and has been theologically explored for its implications of plurality within the divine conversation.
Thanks.
J.
civic
Well-known member
Projecting again
MTMattie
Active member
Thank you very much for the education.
I will reread again a little more slowly to digest.
To me it is a no brainer. God in 3 persons, blessed trinity... sums it up.
I am often leery of folks who avoid continually answering a question that is asked such as the Us, Our one.
But your explanation I hope will help those also.
Johann
Well-known member
Many
John 1:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Colossians 1:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Hebrews 1:8–10 (KJV 1900) — 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Hebrews 1:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
thanks for sharing these. I've been focused on too narrow of scriptures for a long time.
You are welcome
Grace ambassador
Well-known member
Precious friend, for a further Comprehensive expansion of Scriptures, if you wish:
Why The Triune GodHead Is Correct!
Amen.
Grace ambassador
Well-known member
Op: Before Abraham was, I AM?
Borrowed from: # 7 of Why The Triune GodHead Is Correct!
The Lord Jesus Christ Is Almighty God
22) Who Is The Jehovah God Who Appeared to Abraham and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah?
A) "No man has seen God At Any Time..." (John 1:18) Refers To 'God, The Father,' According To:
However:
B} Jehovah God Appeared to Abraham (Genesis 17:26, 18:1), and, The LORD, after talking to
Abraham, went His Way (18:33). This Way must have been Sodom and Gomorrah. Because,
after the two angels Evacuated Lot and his family (19:1-23), we find:
Also compare Genesis 15:1, 17:1-3, 17:22, 26:1-2 cf Acts 7:2 and others to
whom "The LORD Appeared": Genesis 48:3; Exodus 4:1; 2 Chronicles 1:7):
1) This 'LORD' [ Jehovah God ] then, Must Be "The SON" because Abraham [ and others ] are
part of the "no [ Not Any ] man that has seen God [ The Father ] At Any Time," Correct?
Confirmed By:
2) "The LORD [ The SON ]" still on the earth, calling on "The LORD [ The Father }" in heaven, eh?
Still praying for those in DIS-belief That The Lord Jesus Christ Is Almighty God!
Amen.
Borrowed from: # 7 of Why The Triune GodHead Is Correct!
The Lord Jesus Christ Is Almighty God
22) Who Is The Jehovah God Who Appeared to Abraham and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah?
A) "No man has seen God At Any Time..." (John 1:18) Refers To 'God, The Father,' According To:
"Not that any man hath seen The Father, save He Which is of God, He hath seen The Father."
(John 6:46)
However:
B} Jehovah God Appeared to Abraham (Genesis 17:26, 18:1), and, The LORD, after talking to
Abraham, went His Way (18:33). This Way must have been Sodom and Gomorrah. Because,
after the two angels Evacuated Lot and his family (19:1-23), we find:
"Then The LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah
brimstone and fire From The LORD out of heaven." (Genesis 19:24)
Also compare Genesis 15:1, 17:1-3, 17:22, 26:1-2 cf Acts 7:2 and others to
whom "The LORD Appeared": Genesis 48:3; Exodus 4:1; 2 Chronicles 1:7):
1) This 'LORD' [ Jehovah God ] then, Must Be "The SON" because Abraham [ and others ] are
part of the "no [ Not Any ] man that has seen God [ The Father ] At Any Time," Correct?
Confirmed By:
2) "The LORD [ The SON ]" still on the earth, calling on "The LORD [ The Father }" in heaven, eh?
Still praying for those in DIS-belief That The Lord Jesus Christ Is Almighty God!
Amen.
