Before Abraham I am

T

TomL

Well-known member
John 8:56–59 (ESV) — 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

This is yet another argument for the pre-existance of Christ before becoming as man

The Jews stated you are not yet 50 years old

So chronology is an issue

The clear implication he was not old enough to have seen Abraham

But Jesus shows before Abraham he had existence
 
Great OP.(y)

Jesus existed in heaven before His birth as a divine being, often identified as “God the Son” or part of a Trinity. This belief posits that Jesus lived with God the Father from eternity and chose to take on human form at His birth. According to this perspective, Jesus’ life did not begin in Bethlehem but much earlier, as an eternal being who then entered the world to carry out God’s redemptive plan.


thebiblestudy.co.uk

The Pre-Existence of Jesus Christ

The question of Jesus Christ's origin is a central topic in Christianity, and how one understands it can profoundly shape their understanding of His mission and purpose. Many have wondered whether Jesus existed in some form before His birth in Bethlehem. Was He alive with God in heaven before enteri
thebiblestudy.co.uk thebiblestudy.co.uk
 
Begotten said:
Great OP.(y)

Jesus existed in heaven before His birth as a divine being, often identified as “God the Son” or part of a Trinity. This belief posits that Jesus lived with God the Father from eternity and chose to take on human form at His birth. According to this perspective, Jesus’ life did not begin in Bethlehem but much earlier, as an eternal being who then entered the world to carry out God’s redemptive plan.


thebiblestudy.co.uk

The Pre-Existence of Jesus Christ

The question of Jesus Christ's origin is a central topic in Christianity, and how one understands it can profoundly shape their understanding of His mission and purpose. Many have wondered whether Jesus existed in some form before His birth in Bethlehem. Was He alive with God in heaven before enteri
thebiblestudy.co.uk thebiblestudy.co.uk
Click to expand...
Actually it is not

read again
 
Interesting challenge they made to Jesus. If Jesus was 52 years old, would they have accepted his statement?
I wonder if there is some other concept they have behind their statement that he was not yet 50.
 
mikesw said:
Interesting challenge they made to Jesus. If Jesus was 52 years old, would they have accepted his statement?
I wonder if there is some other concept they have behind their statement that he was not yet 50.
Click to expand...
Generational structures within tradition. There are manuscripts that say "40".
 
Begotten said:
Ok I just read it twice and I still like it. The reason I said it was a great Original Post Is that it makes one think about who Jesus really is.
Click to expand...
Did you miss this?

4. The Meaning of “Pre-Existence” in the Biblical Context

When examining passages that seem to suggest Jesus’ pre-existence, it is important to understand the biblical context in which such language is used. In many cases, references to Jesus’ pre-existence are not about personal existence but about God’s eternal plan and purpose, which always centred on Jesus as the Saviour.


It is a denial of Christ's actual pre-existance

see especially

The biblical evidence strongly supports the view that Jesus did not personally exist before His birth. The Gospels emphasize His miraculous conception and birth as the moment when He came into existence as the Son of God. Old Testament prophecies point to the Messiah as a future figure, not someone who already existed. The New Testament’s focus on Jesus’ full humanity further reinforces the idea that His life began at His birth, rather than in a pre-existent state.

except there is no actual support for that view

and Phil 2:5ff refutes it
 
Last edited:
TomL said:
Did you miss this?

4. The Meaning of “Pre-Existence” in the Biblical Context

When examining passages that seem to suggest Jesus’ pre-existence, it is important to understand the biblical context in which such language is used. In many cases, references to Jesus’ pre-existence are not about personal existence but about God’s eternal plan and purpose, which always centred on Jesus as the Saviour.


It is a denial of Christ's actual pre-existance

see especially

The biblical evidence strongly supports the view that Jesus did not personally exist before His birth. The Gospels emphasize His miraculous conception and birth as the moment when He came into existence as the Son of God. Old Testament prophecies point to the Messiah as a future figure, not someone who already existed. The New Testament’s focus on Jesus’ full humanity further reinforces the idea that His life began at His birth, rather than in a pre-existent state.

except there is no actual support for that view

and Phil 2:5ff refutes it
Click to expand...
Oh, ok I see your talking about my link that I posted. You right that's not so good but it still makes one think about who Jesus is. Like the fact of the pre-existence of Jesus before His Incarnation and the hypostatic union.

My Belief is Jesus has always existed. When Jesus was conceived, He became a human being in addition to being God.

Jesus is both God and man. Jesus has always been God, but He did not become a human being until He was conceived in Mary.

But there is this one from the same link:

2. John’s Gospel and the “Word” (Logos)

One of the most commonly cited passages used to argue for Jesus’ personal pre-existence is John 1:1-14, which speaks of the “Word” (logos) being with God in the beginning and becoming flesh. However, understanding what John means by the “Word” helps clarify the nature of Jesus’ pre-existence.

In John 1:1, it says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Later, in John 1:14, we read that “the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” Many have interpreted this to mean that Jesus, as the “Word,” personally existed with God before the creation of the world and then took on human form. However, the term logos in this passage is better understood as referring to God’s plan and purpose, which was realized and embodied in the person of Jesus.

So for me it's just food for thought
 
Begotten said:
Oh, ok I see your talking about my link that I posted. You right that's not so good but it still makes one think about who Jesus is. Like the fact of the pre-existence of Jesus before His Incarnation and the hypostatic union.

My Belief is Jesus has always existed. When Jesus was conceived, He became a human being in addition to being God.

Jesus is both God and man. Jesus has always been God, but He did not become a human being until He was conceived in Mary.

But there is this one from the same link:

2. John’s Gospel and the “Word” (Logos)

One of the most commonly cited passages used to argue for Jesus’ personal pre-existence is John 1:1-14, which speaks of the “Word” (logos) being with God in the beginning and becoming flesh. However, understanding what John means by the “Word” helps clarify the nature of Jesus’ pre-existence.

In John 1:1, it says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Later, in John 1:14, we read that “the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” Many have interpreted this to mean that Jesus, as the “Word,” personally existed with God before the creation of the world and then took on human form. However, the term logos in this passage is better understood as referring to God’s plan and purpose, which was realized and embodied in the person of Jesus.

So for me it's just food for thought
Click to expand...
Same problem there

It is not better understood and still refuted by Phil 2:5ff

It's just an excuse to deny the deity of Christ
 
Begotten said:
Oh, ok I see your talking about my link that I posted. You right that's not so good but it still makes one think about who Jesus is. Like the fact of the pre-existence of Jesus before His Incarnation and the hypostatic union.

My Belief is Jesus has always existed. When Jesus was conceived, He became a human being in addition to being God.

Jesus is both God and man. Jesus has always been God, but He did not become a human being until He was conceived in Mary.

But there is this one from the same link:

2. John’s Gospel and the “Word” (Logos)

... Many have interpreted this to mean that Jesus, as the “Word,” personally existed with God before the creation of the world and then took on human form. However, the term logos in this passage is better understood as referring to God’s plan and purpose, which was realized and embodied in the person of Jesus.

So for me it's just food for thought
Click to expand...
Jesus is the plan that was sent. Jesus is the message to us and messenger of the Godhead. In many ways then (or all ways?), we cannot distinguish or separate Christ Jesus from the Logos.
 
TomL said:
Yet he had actual existence
Click to expand...
Sure. My word was a bit odd and lacking. I should say Jesus is the one of the Trinity who is also the Messenger to humanity. I have equated Logos with Message. He is through whom the gospel comes to us. He is about whom the gospel speaks. He also shares the knowledge of God in a broader way than shared in the OT.
 
mikesw said:
Sure. My word was a bit odd and lacking. I should say Jesus is the one of the Trinity who is also the Messenger to humanity. I have equated Logos with Message. He is through whom the gospel comes to us. He is about whom the gospel speaks. He also shares the knowledge of God in a broader way than shared in the OT.
Click to expand...
The messenger of the Lord
 
TomL said:
Did you miss this?

4. The Meaning of “Pre-Existence” in the Biblical Context

When examining passages that seem to suggest Jesus’ pre-existence, it is important to understand the biblical context in which such language is used. In many cases, references to Jesus’ pre-existence are not about personal existence but about God’s eternal plan and purpose, which always centred on Jesus as the Saviour.


It is a denial of Christ's actual pre-existance

see especially

The biblical evidence strongly supports the view that Jesus did not personally exist before His birth. The Gospels emphasize His miraculous conception and birth as the moment when He came into existence as the Son of God. Old Testament prophecies point to the Messiah as a future figure, not someone who already existed. The New Testament’s focus on Jesus’ full humanity further reinforces the idea that His life began at His birth, rather than in a pre-existent state.

except there is no actual support for that view

and Phil 2:5ff refutes it
Click to expand...
Do you believe that Jesus Christ is eternal? In other words, do you believe in the Trinity?

selah
 
TomL said:
John 8:56–59 (ESV) — 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

This is yet another argument for the pre-existance of Christ before becoming as man

The Jews stated you are not yet 50 years old

So chronology is an issue

The clear implication he was not old enough to have seen Abraham

But Jesus shows before Abraham he had existence
Click to expand...
This is a bad argument for the pre-existence of Jesus, but thank you for confessing it’s only an argument rather than an explicit declaration. That suggests to me you’re still open to knowing the truth.

A few points. Jesus never said he saw Abraham. Jesus never said Abraham saw him. Jesus never said he pre-existed Abraham. Thats exactly what this passage doesn’t say so don’t read too far into it.

In the past tense, Abraham saw Jesus’ day, yet Jesus’ day wasn’t in Abraham’s day. Jesus’ day was when he was a man.

Before Abraham, there was no Jesus saying or doing anything. There are no quotes by anyone there named the Son or Word either.

There was nothing but prophecy before Abraham, regarding the coming messiah who would be a human.

The matter about Jesus being before Abraham refers to him existing in prophecy, but that’s it. It wasn’t about him pre-existing as a person. If he did, he was remarkably silent and there’s no Scriptural proof to the contrary.

Abraham saw Jesus’ day in the same way as Hebrews 11:13 says Abraham and the others saw things in faith that they hadn’t literally received yet.

Hebrews 11 (NIV)
13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.
 
Runningman said:
This is a bad argument for the pre-existence of Jesus, but thank you for confessing it’s only an argument rather than an explicit declaration. That suggests to me you’re still open to knowing the truth.

A few points. Jesus never said he saw Abraham. Jesus never said Abraham saw him. Jesus never said he pre-existed Abraham. Thats exactly what this passage doesn’t say so don’t read too far into it.

In the past tense, Abraham saw Jesus’ day, yet Jesus’ day wasn’t in Abraham’s day. Jesus’ day was when he was a man.

Before Abraham, there was no Jesus saying or doing anything. There are no quotes by anyone there named the Son or Word either.

There was nothing but prophecy before Abraham, regarding the coming messiah who would be a human.

The matter about Jesus being before Abraham refers to him existing in prophecy, but that’s it. It wasn’t literal.

Abraham saw Jesus’ day in the same way as Hebrews 11:13 days Abraham and the others saw things in faith that they hadn’t literally received yet.

Hebrews 11 (NIV)
13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.
Click to expand...
Sorry you offer only denial

The Jews had objected, questioning Christ concerning his age

John 8:53–59 (LEB) — 53 You are not greater than our father Abraham who died, are you? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself to be?” 54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. The one who glorifies me is my Father, about whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55 And you have not known him, but I know him. And if I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you! But I know him and I keep his word. 56 Abraham your father rejoiced that he would see my day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am!” 59 Then they picked up stones in order to throw them at him. But Jesus was hidden and went out of the temple courts.

Christ addressed their objection and more based upon their reaction

Nor have you offered any support for your claim

"The matter about Jesus being before Abraham refers to him existing in prophecy, but that’s it. It wasn’t literal."

You are simply assuming your view contrary to scripture

Remember, you have not been able to deal with phil 2:5 when Christ existed in the form of God before becoming flesh

or 1 Cor 10:4 when Christ was following the Israelites in the desert

1 Corinthians 10:4 (LEB) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.


or 1cor 10:9 putting Christ to the test

1 Corinthians 10:9 (LEB) — 9 nor put Christ to the test, as some of them tested him, and were destroyed by snakes,

when the Old Testament

Numbers 21:5–7 (KJV 1900) — 5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. 6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. 7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.

Shows it was Jehovah God put to the test


Heb 11 says nothing at all addressing this issue
 

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